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HCG usage on long cycles

Ashop

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HCG / CLOMID USAGE ( long cycles and short cycles)

I am little confused now after some reading about HCG usage. I know from Big A that in long cycles is good to do HCG every 4 weeks 1500 IU Mon Wed Fri.

I read a article that HCG should be done under 1000 IU otherwise will damage leyding cells RIGHT?

So I should make 1000 IU ?

Also I should add CLOMID EOD or I can use ONLY CLOMID EOD 50mg and drop off HCG ? ( if clomid is enough seems to be safer than HCG ? )

Any help ?
 
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monster74

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I used the profasi that was sent with my postcard. only 5,000 ius spaced out over 4 injections every other day. I am on a 20 week cycle of the nile and high anabolics. My nuts were small and I did the hcg mid cycle, it made them come back to life.

as far as the science i don't know, but my buddy is a doctor and he told me to use clomid because it contained properties of gonatrophin. Appartenly there is two types of gonadatrohin. and hcg only has one, being phosophrus. I regularly take clomid through my cycle just to stop atrophy.

that is just my exp and not how you should do though alin, I am not a doc but just a muscle head.
 

Ashop

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Do you guys agree with this ?

===
Question: Some say Clomid during a cycle is a waste, is this true?

Answer: Lets first examine what happens when someone is using anabaolic androgenic steroids. When the level of androgens in the body get too high, the androgen receptor becomes more highly activated, and the hypothalamus stops sending a signal to the pituitary. In short the signal tells our body to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has higher levels than normal of androgens and as long as this level is high enough clomid will not help to keep natural test production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off. The only purpose of clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.

========
 

Ashop

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So if I understood right:

1. HCG during short cycles could do more harm than good

" if you run hcg on short cycles or too late in a cycle it could cause counter-productive results.the hcg will make your body "think" its functioning correctly and the clomid will not work! "

2. HCG is beneficial on LONG cycles but with dosages at under 1000 IU per day spaced 2 or 3 times per week

" hcg only mimics (pretends) NTRto avoid testicular atrophy. if you were to shut your natural test production down for a full yr <long cycle> , your body could shut it down permenently. hcg tricks your body into thinking it is producing testosterone and keeps them from shutting down."

3. Clomid during a cycle is a waste

" When the level of androgens in the body get too high, the androgen receptor becomes more highly activated, and the hypothalamus stops sending a signal to the pituitary. In short the signal tells our body to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has higher levels than normal of androgens and as long as this level is high enough clomid will not help to keep natural test production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off. The only purpose of clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen. "

4. HCG at the end of a cycle will do more harm than good

" HCG post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production. From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle to avoid testicular atrophy. " FROM " HCG Info & Usage" by XCEL

5. We should end the cycle only with CLOMID

" read post cycle clomid terapy by XCEL "
 
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Ashop

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MikeS

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Clomid has been said to have ability to product gonadropin from the pituatary to the testicles. I dont know if this is a direct response-Id think its more a product of the anti-estrogen properties. Clomid has a great affinity to the estrogen receptor in the HPTA. That will prevent shutdown from estrogen by blocking it-estrogen is the greatest factor in shutting down endogenious test levels IMO, more so the the response of the HPT axis to androgens. So by eliminating the estro HPTA shutdown, you have greatly reduced the shutdown during your cycle. I use it EOD throughout.

And since I dont thing the gonadatropin is a direct response of clomid, just a result of the lack of suppression, you could also do HCG during cycle which WOULD directly send the response to the testes to make endogenious testosterone! Personally I just use clomid EOD.
 

xcelbeyond

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When Doc Swale was posting on this board, he pretty much agreed with all the recommendations stated in that article.

xcel
 

Tadger

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Speaking of Swale... this is directly from Dr. John himself:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
 

LATS

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there are so many different theories on this, it can get very confusing..i had one guy, (who is very versed in anabolics) tell me after a long cycle to start hcg at 1000 iu a day for ten days.. then i will read that lower dosage is safer and more than enough.. i would always prefer smaller doses in anything i do but, manydo recommend the higher dose hcg therapy..now my head is spinning in confusion lol so my advice is too read xcel post about it and follow that routine.. it worked well for me and try to avoid other reads about hcg therapy..your head will explode..lol:D
 
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