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HEATING AAS...how much until it denatures???

Steak Helmet

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I was curious on how much heat AAS can take before the ester starts to break down? Where I play DOCTOR, is very cold, so I heat some water in the microwave and put the amps in the water. I was curious on how much heat AAS can take before it starts to denature?

Thanks fellas
 

xcelbeyond

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I'll take a cut at this. For AAS in oil, it is a relatively high temperature. From what I've read, the gear has bonded with the oil and it's the breakdown temperature for oil (boiling point?)that's at risk. I think that was like 350 degrees F.

On making your own injectible: Now you need to be careful that you don't break-down your gear when it's in the magic solution with too high a temperature.

Maybe KC or someone else can answer this.

xcel
 

MikeS

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The suggested heating temp to evaporate BA is 250 or so.
Probably no need to go any higher than that.
So thats a descent window before you hit the 350 Xcel suggested.
 

KaotikChem

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The good thing abnout the way you are heating your gear is that it will never get any hotter than the boiling point of the water.(100C/212F).

AAS are large carbon compounds that require alot of heat before they will denature. Alot of AAS doesnt even melt until 150C/302F or higher. And just because something has melted does not mean it has denatured.

Also If you heat you gear to a high enough temp to denature it,
it will undergo a chemical change that will be noticable in some way to you.
i.e. Your solution will become grey or black and get coludy, or I have even seen some AAS carmelize at high temps.

In any event the way you are heating you gear is the safest way and you stand no chance of damaging it due to the heat.
 

xcelbeyond

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KC: It's been my understanding that you must heat at 250 degrees F for additional sterilization. Heat for 15 minutes, then cool for 10 minutes and repeat 2 more times. I've been told it's the "heating/cooling" process that provides sterilization.

xcel
 

KaotikChem

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The heating and cooling process can and does sterilize your final product.

However with our kits (and with most others I assume) there is at least a small percentage of BA that is in there that will act as a preservative to keep the final product sterile.

Also the filtering process provides sterilility by filtering out any bacteria that may have gotten into your experiment.

Some will argue that the syringe filters will only filter out the bacteria and wont filter out a virus since viruses are so small that they can pass right through the filter.

This is true, however, I do not know of any virus that would be able to survive in the type of environment that is created in your experiment with the BA and other solvents, unless it had a host cell of some sort.
And if the virus did have a host cell then it would be to big to pass through your syringe filter, and you would be safe from harm since it has been filtered out.
 

MikeS

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xcelbeyond said:
KC: It's been my understanding that you must heat at 250 degrees F for additional sterilization. Heat for 15 minutes, then cool for 10 minutes and repeat 2 more times. I've been told it's the "heating/cooling" process that provides sterilization.

xcel
Xcel-
Thats just what I do except for 20min each time.
Probably doesnt matter either way.
Good info too from Kaotic, as usual this board gives you that something 'extra' that you dont hear anywhere else. :D
 

massmonster32

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I have heard like the above safe to 250-270 etc. But I had a bottle of QV enthanate and it really made me sick by itself so I cooked the crap out of it Kung Fu style spoon and it didnt seem to contain much alcohol didnt bubble or have the sweet smell like my sus/prop. Well Im cheap and dont like to waste anything so I am gona use .5 cc with some other gear to use it up. So far so good. MM
 

Steak Helmet

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Thanks fellas
I figure it would take a lot to break it down with heat. I heat the water then it sits for about 5 minutes to cool while I load my pins. The warm solution fills a 25 gauge pin faster than cold stuff....I know common sense stuff.
 

zephyr22

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Kaotic Chem...

I see you must have some serious chemistry background. I have a small bit of chemistry(In the medical field). Anyways my question is IP products contain a high percent of Benzyl alcohol this i can attest to due to the serious tissue trauma given by the injection pain a day later. I know that in a solution benzyl alcohol can be as low as 1.24% of the total solution and will keep the product sterilized. So my question is what temp would it take to bake the product to get rid of most of the BA to make it tolerable but not denature the drug. Also what way would you reccomend to do this. Thanks.
 

KaotikChem

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The thing about evaporating the BA out of the IP gear has more to do with the amount of time you keep it heated and vented than the amount of heat that you use.

Alcohol evaporates very rapidly in comparison to oil or even water. When you use heat it increases the rate of evaporation exponentially. So a moderate amount of heat at say 250F/121C would be plenty of heat to increase the evaporation rate by a considerable amount. This temp is far from any temp that would end up denaturing the AAS.

The main thing is that, you must leave the AAS in this amount of heat for a considerable amount time in order to get the alcohol percentage to a tolerable level. Say half hour or so.

It is really hard to say though, how long this amount of time would have to be because it is an unknown how much alcohol is actually in there so it is impossible to come up with any equation that would give you any indication of how much alcohol could be evaporated in a given amount of time.

Hope this helps.
 

henry

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Monograph number: 01126
Title: Benzyl Alcohol
CAS Registry Number: 100-51-6
CAS Name: Benzenemethanol
Additional Names: phenylcarbinol ; phenylmethanol; á-hydroxytoluene
Molecular Formula: C7H8O
Molecular Weight: 108.14
Percent Composition: C 77.75%, H 7.46%, O 14.80%
Line Formula: C6H5CH2OH
Literature References: Constituent of jasmine, hyacinth, ylang-ylang oils, Peru and Tolu balsams, storax, where it occurs in ester form also. Originally prepd by the Cannizzaro reaction from benzaldehyde + KOH: Cannizzaro, Ann. 88, 129 (1853); cf. Hickinbottom, Reactions of Organic Compds. (Longmans, London, 3rd ed., 1957) p 251; A. I. Vogel, Practical Organic Chemistry (Longmans, London, 3rd ed., 1959) p 711; Gattermann-Wieland, Praxis des organischen Chemikers (de Gruyter, Berlin, 40th ed., 1961) p 193. Produced on a large scale by the action of sodium or potassium carbonate on benzyl chloride: DE 484662; Chem. Zentr. 1930, I, 1052; Frdl. 16, 426; cf. Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology vol. 3 (Interscience, New York, 1964) pp 442-449. Toxicity: Smyth et al., Arch. Ind. Hyg. Occup. Med. 4, 119 (1951).
Properties: Liquid. Faint aromatic odor. Sharp burning taste. d420 1.04535; d425 1.04156. mp -15.19°. bp760 204.7°; bp400 183.0°; bp200 160.0°; bp100 141.7°; bp60 129.3°; bp40 119.8°; bp20 105.8°; bp10 92.6°; bp5 80.8°; bp1.0 58.0°. nD20 1.54035; nD25 1.53837: Dreisbach, Martin, Ind. Eng. Chem. 41, 2875 (1941). Absorption spectrum: Brode, J. Phys. Chem. 30, 61 (1926). Vapor density 3.72 (air = 1.00). Flash pt, closed cup 213, open cup 220. Autoignition temp 817°F. One gram dissolves in about 25 ml water. One volume dissolves in 1.5 vols of 50% ethyl alcohol. Misc with abs and 94% alcohol, ether, chloroform. LD50 orally in rats: 3.1 g/kg (Smyth).
Use: Manuf other benzyl compds. Pharmaceutic aid (antimicrobial). Solvent for gelatin, casein (when hot), solvent for cellulose acetate, shellac. Used in perfumery and in flavoring (mostly in form of its aliphatic esters). In microscopy as embedding material.
Therapeutic Category (Vet.): Has been used for relief from pruritis.

BA BOILING POINT SEEMS TO BE 204,7°C...
 

henry

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Monograph number: 01129
Title: Benzyl Benzoate
CAS Registry Number: 120-51-4
CAS Name: Benzoic acid phenylmethyl ester
Additional Names: benzoic acid benzyl ester ; benzylbenzenecarboxylate
Trademarks: Acarosan (Allergopharma) ; Antiscabiosum (Strathmann); Ascabiol (RPR)
Molecular Formula: C14H12O2
Molecular Weight: 212.24
Percent Composition: C 79.23%, H 5.70%, O 15.08%
Line Formula: C6H5COOCH2C6H5
Literature References: Contained in Peru and Tolu balsams. Prepd by the action of sodium benzylate on benzaldehyde: Kamm, Kamm, Org. Syn. coll. vol. I, 104 (2nd ed., 1941); by the dry esterification of sodium benzoate and benzyl chloride in the presence of triethylamine: Thorp, Nottorf, Ind. Eng. Chem. 39, 1300 (1947). Toxicity studies: Graham, Kuizenga, J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 84, 358 (1945); Draize et al., J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 93, 26 (1948). Comprehensive description: M. M. A. Hassan, J. S. Mossa, Anal. Profiles Drug Subs. 10, 55-74 (1981).
Properties: Leaflets or oily liq; faint, pleasant, aromatic odor; sharp burning taste. mp 21°. d425 1.118. bp 323-324°. bp16 189-191°. bp4.5 156°. Sparingly volatile with steam. nD21 1.5681. Insol in water or glycerol. Miscible with alc, chloroform, ether, oils. LD50 in rats, mice, rabbits, guinea pigs (g/kg): 1.7, 1.4, 1.8, 1.0 orally (Draize).
Caution: Direct contact may cause skin irritation. Potential symptoms of overexposure by ingestion in exptl animals are progressive incoordination, CNS excitation, convulsions. See Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, R. E. Gosselin et al., Eds. (Williams & Wilkins, Baltimore, 5th ed., 1984) Section II, p 203.
Use: As solvent of cellulose acetate, nitrocellulose and artificial musk; substitute for camphor in celluloid and plastic pyroxylin compds; perfume fixative; in confectionery and chewing gum flavors.
Therapeutic Category: Scabicide, pediculicide.
Therapeutic Category (Vet.): Acaricide, pediculicide. Contraindicated in cats.

BP: 323-324°C
 

henry

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I still haven't understood how BB improves oil solubility of TA :confused: what's the chemical mechanism?

And another question: if I put my vial in a boiling water, Do I get enought heat to do sterilization process? Usually I let cool the vials in the fridge (until I get it not frozen, but near), I think it's more hard for bacteria to survive in this huge heat jumps (from 100-120°C to 5-10°C and then 2 more times).

Hey KC, late I'll write U for the order I mentioned long ago. Am I a ball breaker? :D:D
 

KaotikChem

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IF I give you the mechanisms for how certain chemicals work.......

my formulas might be figured out and we cant have that happen can we?:p

I hope you understand my reluctance to answer your questions.
 

diablo69

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Denature is to provoke structural changes in a molecule which disrupt its biological activity in proteins. not carbon base chemicals like a steriod. So, denture IMO is more suitible for a protein base or hydrogen base molecule.

You would have to be more worried of the break down point of the oil.. not the "gear" it self which is a carbon chain find the BP of the oil used in the gear. to me its a waste of time. IMO

But i would guess..ur just heating the juice up so its easier to "play doctor" right...

I won't worry about that because your just heating it up for easy flow. But everyone had great inputs.. this is just my .02
 
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henry

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KaotikChem said:
IF I give you the mechanisms for how certain chemicals work.......

my formulas might be figured out and we cant have that happen can we?:p

I hope you understand my reluctance to answer your questions.
OHHH OF COURSE!
I'M JUST A CHEMISTRY ENTUSIAST. LIKE TO LEARN THOSE THING!
 

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