Hernon Old Training Method Revisited: 2022

Analog2 · Jan 8, 2022

Hello Professional Muscle,

I wanted to revisit the old Phil Hernon "5-10-15" training method. I am trying to find information on it since it is pretty difficult to come by and this was one of the only forums that had any insight on his methods. I figure now that now Phil unfortunately passed that it would not be out of line to discuss his methods in more detail now, especially for those of us interested in keeping the old bodybuilding styles alive.

I would really appreciate any insight from you guys who either worked with Phil or knew his methodology.

3 day on 1 off Split:

Day 1 Chest/Back/Calves

Dips or Decline Press 3 sets
Chins or Pulldown 3 sets
Bent Over DB Row 3 sets
Seated Calf Raises 3 sets

Day 2 Legs

Back Squat 3 sets
Stiff Leg Dead 3 sets

Day 3

DB Lateral Raises 3 sets
DB or EZ Bar Curl 3 sets
Close Grip BP or Dips 3 sets
Standing Calf Raises 3 sets

Day 4 - Off
Day 5 - Repeat Day 1

Set & Rep Approach:

3 Working Sets per body part to Failure in "5-10-15" rep ranges. Exception was Back @ 6 sets (3 vertical pull + 3 horizontal pull)
Reverse Pyramid Approach - warm up to a top set of about 5 reps for 1st working set to failure; Decrease weight about 10% for 2nd work set with rep goal of 10 reps; Decrease weight again about 10% for 3rd work set with rep goal of 15 reps.
Reps are done in more of a piston style continuous tension approach as opposed to resting a few seconds between reps near failure (i.e., Dorian Yates Failure)
Exercise Selection - primarily compound movements and basics.

Questions:

1. Can anyone share any other splits Phil may have recommended? For example, I believe he might have done something like as found in Big Beyond Belief:

Day 1 - Chest/Back/Shoulders
Day 2 - Arms/Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Repeat Day 1

2. Was there a different set of prescribed rep ranges? Thought i read something like it was more like "5-7", "7-10", "11-15"? I realize in the grand scheme of things these don't mean much, but for accuracy's sake.

3. Did Phil recommend changing the order of exercises? For example, if Chest was hit before Back on Day 1, would Phil recommend hitting Back before chest on Day 5?

4. Was volume adjusted? For example, start with 3 sets for Chest and then eventually make it 4 working sets?

5. How was progressive overload applied? I would assume if for the "5-7" rep set if you hit 8 reps for failure, then simply add some weight next session. Rinse and repeat?

Lastly, I really appreciate any insight into Phil's old methods, I realize he might have rubbed folks the wrong way in his later years, but hope some can see past this and provide some details on this methods.

Thanks!

alfresco · Jan 8, 2022

Analog2 said:
Hello Professional Muscle,

I wanted to revisit the old Phil Hernon "5-10-15" training method. I am trying to find information on it since it is pretty difficult to come by and this was one of the only forums that had any insight on his methods. I figure now that now Phil unfortunately passed that it would not be out of line to discuss his methods in more detail now, especially for those of us interested in keeping the old bodybuilding styles alive.

I would really appreciate any insight from you guys who either worked with Phil or knew his methodology.

3 day on 1 off Split:

Day 1 Chest/Back/Calves

Dips or Decline Press 3 sets

Chins or Pulldown 3 sets

Bent Over DB Row 3 sets

Seated Calf Raises 3 sets

Day 2 Legs

Back Squat 3 sets

Stiff Leg Dead 3 sets

Day 3

DB Lateral Raises 3 sets

DB or EZ Bar Curl 3 sets

Close Grip BP or Dips 3 sets

Standing Calf Raises 3 sets

Day 4 - Off
Day 5 - Repeat Day 1

Set & Rep Approach:

3 Working Sets per body part to Failure in "5-10-15" rep ranges. Exception was Back @ 6 sets (3 vertical pull + 3 horizontal pull)

Reverse Pyramid Approach - warm up to a top set of about 5 reps for 1st working set to failure; Decrease weight about 10% for 2nd work set with rep goal of 10 reps; Decrease weight again about 10% for 3rd work set with rep goal of 15 reps.

Reps are done in more of a piston style continuous tension approach as opposed to resting a few seconds between reps near failure (i.e., Dorian Yates Failure)

Exercise Selection - primarily compound movements and basics.

Questions:

1. Can anyone share any other splits Phil may have recommended? For example, I believe he might have done something like as found in Big Beyond Belief:

Day 1 - Chest/Back/Shoulders

Day 2 - Arms/Legs

Day 3 - Off

Day 4 - Repeat Day 1

2. Was there a different set of prescribed rep ranges? Thought i read something like it was more like "5-7", "7-10", "11-15"? I realize in the grand scheme of things these don't mean much, but for accuracy's sake.

3. Did Phil recommend changing the order of exercises? For example, if Chest was hit before Back on Day 1, would Phil recommend hitting Back before chest on Day 5?

4. Was volume adjusted? For example, start with 3 sets for Chest and then eventually make it 4 working sets?

5. How was progressive overload applied? I would assume if for the "5-7" rep set if you hit 8 reps for failure, then simply add some weight next session. Rinse and repeat?

Lastly, I really appreciate any insight into Phil's old methods, I realize he might have rubbed folks the wrong way in his later years, but hope some can see past this and provide some details on this methods.

Thanks!

I thinking you are way overthinking things.

The ‘original’ routine you posted looks correct. My only personal change would be two days off instead of one.

His sets and reps are consistent from what little I know. He did go off the deep end, my opinion at the end but Phil was one for thinking out of the box, can’t knock him for that.

I agree with his eating when hungry (most people have zero idea what true hunger is really like) and listening to / understanding your body.

I talked with Phil a few times but training was never discussed. All this is from what I recall, read here on the forum.

Many folks here have trained directly under his guidance so I really hope they chime in.

I liked Phil (others had some real problems with him sorry to hear) and I thought he had some really good, result producing ‘protocols’. I think his goal was to get you to observe, pay attention, really get to your body. Kinda like a fisherman who teaches you how to fish.

Hope this helps and does not further your confusion and again, Again, I hope others chime in with their personal experience, good or bad.

juggy38 · Jan 8, 2022

I worked with Phil for a little bit, the split looks pretty correct, but I believe eventually we added a few exercises

Like on leg day, I believe one 4-5 week stint we were doing leg press, leg extension, RDLs, ham curls. But still about 4 sets per muscle.

What I did not like, which alfresco touched on, I had set “meal macros”. Example….10g fat, 40g carbs, 50g protein. And eat when hungry.

I’m a former fatty, and my psychological status really impacts “feeling of hunger”….on a low stressful day I might eat 4 meals, on a stressful day I could eat 8.

So yea some have a really fucked up “hunger signaling”. Work in progress lol.

But there wasn’t anything magical, just a “not retarded” split, focus on overload. Consistency.

The only thing he really preached to me was having a DL or DL variant on leg day if you wanted to bring up your back.

Oh and he loved “fat man rows”. Basically bent over row with a trap bar or DBs (neutral grip)

KTT · Jan 8, 2022

juggy38 said:
I worked with Phil for a little bit, the split looks pretty correct, but I believe eventually we added a few exercises

Like on leg day, I believe one 4-5 week stint we were doing leg press, leg extension, RDLs, ham curls. But still about 4 sets per muscle.

What I did not like, which alfresco touched on, I had set “meal macros”. Example….10g fat, 40g carbs, 50g protein. And eat when hungry.

I’m a former fatty, and my psychological status really impacts “feeling of hunger”….on a low stressful day I might eat 4 meals, on a stressful day I could eat 8.

So yea some have a really fucked up “hunger signaling”. Work in progress lol.

But there wasn’t anything magical, just a “not retarded” split, focus on overload. Consistency.

The only thing he really preached to me was having a DL or DL variant on leg day if you wanted to bring up your back.

Oh and he loved “fat man rows”. Basically bent over row with a trap bar or DBs (neutral grip)

Aren´t "fat man rows" reverse rows?

juggy38 · Jan 8, 2022

KTT said:
Aren´t "fat man rows" reverse rows?

Welp, YouTube and google would agree that my description is definitely not a fat man row.

I swear I thought he called them fat man rows because there was no bar to touch your belly like a barbell bent row.

It was a looong time ago, hell I might be way off

Type-IIx · Jan 8, 2022

Good first post, @Analog2 - I hope you get the answers to your questions so there's a good thread on his methods.

heavyhitter · Jan 8, 2022

juggy38 said:
Welp, YouTube and google would agree that my description is definitely not a fat man row.

I swear I thought he called them fat man rows because there was no bar to touch your belly like a barbell bent row.

It was a looong time ago, hell I might be way off

Ya fat man rows are bent over Dumbell rows

cm · Jan 9, 2022

take it with a grain of salt
phil went through many variations of what "his" training splits were
he would add and exercise, and then remove it, and say it was worthless to do, and then go back and forth again and again. In the last years, he didnt even believe in lifting weights. He was my guy, sad to see him gone, but he was sometimes bananas.

alfresco · Jan 9, 2022

I believe that Phil worked Leo Costa Jr. on the book Big Beyond Belief.

I know nothing about the book, have never read it but he referenced it
a few times as being a result producing.

juggy38 · Jan 9, 2022

alfresco said:
I believe that Phil worked Leo Costa Jr. on the book Big Beyond Belief.

I know nothing about the book, have never read it but he referenced it
a few times as being a result producing.

The only thing I ever heard about it was DR Scott saying they had a 5x5 with 5 breaths, and I think he felt it was worthy of some tweaks, so it was kinda the birth of muscle rounds

alfresco · Jan 9, 2022

Analog2 said:
Hello Professional Muscle,

I wanted to revisit the old Phil Hernon "5-10-15" training method. I am trying to find information on it since it is pretty difficult to come by and this was one of the only forums that had any insight on his methods. I figure now that now Phil unfortunately passed that it would not be out of line to discuss his methods in more detail now, especially for those of us interested in keeping the old bodybuilding styles alive.

I would really appreciate any insight from you guys who either worked with Phil or knew his methodology.

3 day on 1 off Split:

Day 1 Chest/Back/Calves

Dips or Decline Press 3 sets

Chins or Pulldown 3 sets

Bent Over DB Row 3 sets

Seated Calf Raises 3 sets

Day 2 Legs

Back Squat 3 sets

Stiff Leg Dead 3 sets

Day 3

DB Lateral Raises 3 sets

DB or EZ Bar Curl 3 sets

Close Grip BP or Dips 3 sets

Standing Calf Raises 3 sets

Day 4 - Off
Day 5 - Repeat Day 1

Set & Rep Approach:

3 Working Sets per body part to Failure in "5-10-15" rep ranges. Exception was Back @ 6 sets (3 vertical pull + 3 horizontal pull)

Reverse Pyramid Approach - warm up to a top set of about 5 reps for 1st working set to failure; Decrease weight about 10% for 2nd work set with rep goal of 10 reps; Decrease weight again about 10% for 3rd work set with rep goal of 15 reps.

Reps are done in more of a piston style continuous tension approach as opposed to resting a few seconds between reps near failure (i.e., Dorian Yates Failure)

Exercise Selection - primarily compound movements and basics.

Questions:

1. Can anyone share any other splits Phil may have recommended? For example, I believe he might have done something like as found in Big Beyond Belief:

Day 1 - Chest/Back/Shoulders

Day 2 - Arms/Legs

Day 3 - Off

Day 4 - Repeat Day 1

2. Was there a different set of prescribed rep ranges? Thought i read something like it was more like "5-7", "7-10", "11-15"? I realize in the grand scheme of things these don't mean much, but for accuracy's sake.

3. Did Phil recommend changing the order of exercises? For example, if Chest was hit before Back on Day 1, would Phil recommend hitting Back before chest on Day 5?

4. Was volume adjusted? For example, start with 3 sets for Chest and then eventually make it 4 working sets?

5. How was progressive overload applied? I would assume if for the "5-7" rep set if you hit 8 reps for failure, then simply add some weight next session. Rinse and repeat?

Lastly, I really appreciate any insight into Phil's old methods, I realize he might have rubbed folks the wrong way in his later years, but hope some can see past this and provide some details on this methods.

Thanks!

You can’t search by using a banned members username I believe, but if you are creative you can find a lot about Phil’s training at his peak.

“I did 3 sets per bodypart and each bodypart 3 times per week. The middle workout I was always weaker, but continually got stronger each week.”

“I ALWAYS STAYED AT 3 SETS.“

“Low, mod, high reps each workout. My split was chest, back, shoulders, hamstrings day one. Day two was Thighs, calves, bis, tris.”

Fit2Serve · Jan 9, 2022

the first routine outlined by OP is the work out Phil prescribed me when we first started out.
nice to see it again.
we did that routine most. phil never liked to over think things when it came to workouts.
we also did full body routine. but it was never the go to workout. i used it just to change things up.
i changed exercises often but always compound movements and movements that moved ur body thru space (squats not leg press, pull ups not pull downs, etc.)
Phil was very practical too. my calves were easily my best body part and we decided to quit training em and save energy for recovery instead.

KTT · Jan 9, 2022

I paid Phil money for it, but that was in 2007. Shortly after that I stopped training with him because a lot of things changed in my life (moving, breaking up with my girlfriend, work). Therefore, I do not know if the training would have changed to meet my specific needs.

"Ideally, I would like a 6 day split. Day one would be chest, shoulders, triceps. Day 2 would be back, biceps, abs. Day 3 would be quads, hamstrings, calves.

For chest I want 3 sets of bench presses with dumbells. I want you to do them on the floor. Lay on the floor and do them. I want you to work your chest only here, not shoulders. Heavy to light. Warm up good, then go heavy to light, around 8-12 reps each set, just go heavy to light. I want you to do dips for triceps, 3 sets to failure each set, as many as you can. Lateral raises are next, 3 sets heavy to light. Then 3 sets of ab crunches, 3 sets to failure, make it burn. END OF DAY 1

Day 2, back and biceps. For back do 3 sets of bent over rows, heavy to light. Then 3 sets of pullups to failure. Wide grip pull ups first, then bring hands in a little closer for each set. Then biceps. Do 3 sets for biceps, dumbell curls. Heavy to light. Then do crunches, 3 sets to failure, make it burn really good.

Day 3, legs. 3 sets of squats, first set heavy, then lighter each set. Each set go lower down, The first set will be heavy and not very deep, go deeper each set and lighter each set. After 3 sets of squats, do hamsrtings. 1 set of stiff leg deadlifts, 1 set of leg curls, 1 set of hyper extensions. Go heavy on the first set, then lighter on the following sets. For calves do 3 sets, heavy to light. Do standing calves one workout, then seated calves the next time you train calves.

YES, ALL SETS TO FAILURE. NO FORCED REPS PLEASE. DO AS MANY REPS AS POSSIBLE, BUT TRY NOT TO GO SO LIGHT AS YOU ARE DOING OVER 15 REPS. BUT YES, JUST GO LIGHTER EACH SET BUT FAILURE EACH TIME, REPS MAY VARY."

Analog2 · Jan 9, 2022

Thanks everyone for your input. Nice to keep some of this old school stuff alive.

3 sets to failure per bodypart sounds like nothing, but when frequency is high I would imagine that's where the magic lies.

Flex500 · Jan 9, 2022

Was Hernon involved in Big Beyond Belief? I had the PDF from years ago and it's a solid program I was going to start it up again and it has many themes from Hernon although I don't see his name on it and he isn't mentioned.

You can find the PDF anywhere...I think I may have paid for it but it's openly available so I'm not sure, maybe it was free. I only say that because I like to ensure we all pay for stuff like this to support our fellows in iron but this is very openly available like it was always free?

Flex500 · Jan 9, 2022

Analog2 said:
Thanks everyone for your input. Nice to keep some of this old school stuff alive.

3 sets to failure per bodypart sounds like nothing, but when frequency is high I would imagine that's where the magic lies.

In Big Beyond belief it is also three sets but it ramps up and back down and alternates reps and rest times. It really seems to have a lot of themes being discussed in this thread and an above poster mentioned it. I was on a FB page with Hernon and he did described optimal training as you listed and similar to BBB but always mentioned concepts like ramping volume up and down and different rep ranges.

I'm not suggesting you don't pay for it our download illegally but I'd take a look at the big beyond belief PDF (just google that).

Disclaimer: Really want to reiterate I 100% against illegally downloading these but this is available free on reputable/normal sites so I'd have to think this is free info...at least at this point. (compared to say fortitude where you either pay or go to some seedy site to get it free illegally).

knucklehed · Jan 9, 2022

I was lucky enough to actually train with Phil. I just don't have time to discuss at the moment.

comedycentral · Jan 9, 2022

I still follow big beyond belief now. It has its flaws but I like the ramping up then deloading Saves me overthinking. Just stick with the plan and then repeat

comedycentral · Jan 9, 2022

Flex500 said:
In Big Beyond belief it is also three sets but it ramps up and back down and alternates reps and rest times. It really seems to have a lot of themes being discussed in this thread and an above poster mentioned it. I was on a FB page with Hernon and he did described optimal training as you listed and similar to BBB but always mentioned concepts like ramping volume up and down and different rep ranges.

I'm not suggesting you don't pay for it our download illegally but I'd take a look at the big beyond belief PDF (just google that).

Disclaimer: Really want to reiterate I 100% against illegally downloading these but this is available free on reputable/normal sites so I'd have to think this is free info...at least at this point. (compared to say fortitude where you either pay or go to some seedy site to get it free illegally).

Big beyond starts on 3 sets week 1 with 2 min rest time.
week 2 goes to 4 sets 90 sec rest
week 3 goes to 5 sets 90 sec rest (some do 60)
then back to 3 sets and 3 min rest.
that’s the 6 day.
the 4 day does 3/4/5 on back chest and legs and 3/1/1 on arms delts
as I’m old and beaten up natural I do the 4 day and sometimes knock a starting set off so 2/3/4
i find if I do 60 sec rest I use really pathetic weights so it seems to help my joints a bit.

comedycentral · Jan 9, 2022

Flex500 said:
Was Hernon involved in Big Beyond Belief? I had the PDF from years ago and it's a solid program I was going to start it up again and it has many themes from Hernon although I don't see his name on it and he isn't mentioned.

You can find the PDF anywhere...I think I may have paid for it but it's openly available so I'm not sure, maybe it was free. I only say that because I like to ensure we all pay for stuff like this to support our fellows in iron but this is very openly available like it was always free?

I know there often talk that Leo Costa took phils initial 3 set idea and added extra volume for the ramping.
I know fortitude is probably a much better routine but I’ve always liked the rigidity of BBB as it forces me to be strict and not waver