Kris Dim Androgen Recptors Shuting Down

[Stewie]

There has been scientific studies showing that the whole AR getting desensitized has been debunked. Here is a good post where it is discussed. And a Youtube clip where Kurt Haven breaks it down.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...gen-receptor-upregulation.178244/post-3285905

You'll find a much more detailed, in-depth literature based comprehensive overview by, Scott Howell, PhD in this video. It's been posted here on a few occasions. Scott's knowledge base is unmatched by anyone in the industry.

"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About the Androgen Receptor with ..."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLQKo1QnYFrM&ved=2ahUKEwiXiOCh2fiKAxUYvokEHVr3E90Qjjh6BAgiEAE&usg=AOvVaw2zzpY_TLs-idRT4-CEBb4z

 

[aHarness]

Sure, but "what we know" is what guys have experienced by coming off for a period of time and then gone back on.

I’ve never seen any anecdotal situation in real life where somebody came off completely to “resensitize” then suddenly responded “better” to drugs when back at where they were before physique wise BEFORE they came off

 

[specter]

You'll find a much more detailed, in-depth literature based comprehensive overview by, Scott Howell, PhD in this video. It's been posted here on a few occasions. Scott's knowledge base is unmatched by anyone in the industry.

"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About the Androgen Receptor with ..."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLQKo1QnYFrM&ved=2ahUKEwiXiOCh2fiKAxUYvokEHVr3E90Qjjh6BAgiEAE&usg=AOvVaw2zzpY_TLs-idRT4-CEBb4z

Nice thx for the post will deff give this one a watch...

 

[Biggerp73]

I’ve never seen any anecdotal situation in real life where somebody came off completely to “resensitize” then suddenly responded “better” to drugs when back at where they were before physique wise BEFORE they came off

I don't know about "resensitizing" and "responding better". Both those concepts are far too specific. The only thing we do know is that adaptation and homoeostasis are real phenomena, and some guys report breaking through previous plateaus after taking some time off (or just going down to TRT). I remember Fouad Abiad, for example, said he made the best gains of his career one off season after he took a few months off the gear.

 

[aHarness]

I don't know about "resensitizing" and "responding better". Both those concepts are far too specific. The only thing we do know is that adaptation and homoeostasis are real phenomena, and some guys report breaking through previous plateaus after taking some time off (or just going down to TRT). I remember Fouad Abiad, for example, said he made the best gains of his career one off season after he took a few months off the gear.

I’m just saying I don’t see people see any “more” gains than they otherwise would of from coming off gear

Fouad is not anyone I’d listen to for advice personally

 

[Biggerp73]

I’m just saying I don’t see people see any “more” gains than they otherwise would of from coming off gear

Fouad is not anyone I’d listen to for advice personally

I've experimented with it a little bit and I got to my heaviest all time weight this past year and I am currently experiencing a very nice rebound after losing a ton of weight and coming off all the gear. I think if it works (and I am not certain it does), it has to be done properly. You don't want to take a year off or anything like that. Personally I think even 3-4 weeks is enough. That way you don't actually lose any gains but merely give your body a chance to lose a portion of the adaptation and then grow again. At the very least it is probably good for your health, but in my limited experience trying it out over the past 15 months or so, despite struggling through a torn bicep and knee problems, it seems to actually help some with gains too.

 

[aHarness]

Personally I think even 3-4 weeks is enough.

Just thinking realistically… even if we get rid of the whole ester counterargument… what kind of system/theoretical mechanism is going to actually reset/“sensitize” (whatever word we want to use) in a few weeks after years of drug abuse?

As for your anecdote, what was the weight change when coming off and losing weight and what is your weight now? Are you taking anything now? If so when did you add it back in and how much? How much did you peak at before you came off?

 

[Biggerp73]

Just thinking realistically… even if we get rid of the whole ester counterargument… what kind of system/theoretical mechanism is going to actually reset/“sensitize” (whatever word we want to use) in a few weeks after years of drug abuse?

I don't think in terms of specific mechanisms

I just know from experience that when I come off the gear my body goes through the following progression =

_______________

Week 1 slowly looking better, dryer, leaner, and healthier

Around day 10 I look my best

I stay looking around my best until around the end of week 3

By the end of week 4 I am starting to lose size and get softer
______________



Now I don't want to come off the drugs for so long that I lose gains, look worse, and have to make-up ground when I go back on. So I don't want to wait longer than 3-4 weeks.

But if my body has begun to lose size and get softer, then certainly it has been exposed to a low drug level long enough to start effecting the adaption, which imo should be sufficient

 

[aHarness]

I stay looking around my best until around the end of week 3

By the end of week 4 I am starting to lose size and get softer
______________



Now I don't want to come off the drugs for so long that I lose gains, look worse, and have to make-up ground when I go back on. So I don't want to wait longer than 3-4 weeks.

So around when drugs start actually leaving your system?

It sounds to me like you’re initially losing some water (maybe from lower food, or coming off gh, lowering/dropping slin whatever) then start looking “worse” according to you when the drugs are getting out of your system

 

[Biggerp73]

So around when drugs start actually leaving your system?

It sounds to me like you’re initially losing some water (maybe from lower food, or coming off gh, lowering/dropping slin whatever) then start looking “worse” according to you when the drugs are getting out of your system

The drugs begin to decrease the moment I skip my first injection, and the water loss is due to that, to be sure. And yes, I think I begin to look worse right about the point when the drugs have dropped below a minimal threshold.

 

[Elvia1023]

Most of the guys who think they respond better after coming off do so because their look decreased (sometimes significantly) so when they jump back on everything comes back super fast and it feels amazing. Once they get back to their previous best that progress will soon stall unless more is added.

If you are in your best shape ever then sure you can make small changes over a long period taking the same dose but there is always a limit. If someone comes down to say trt and maintains fairly well if they go back to the same blast as before they may get a little extra but there is a ceiling limit. You can't just do the same doses (up/down) and expect to keep on improving over and over. You can refine your physique (look better) but I am talking about building more and more muscle. You can't just keep transforming using the same diet and doses because you had off periods to "resensitize".

If you are taking very high doses and go to very low ones even if you keep food high and maintain all your weight and do a great job you will lose the look. You won't have as much fullness and pop to the muscles. Nevertheless, if you go back on blast you can get that huge initial effect but it won't be as much as if you came off everything. It's all common sense but guys will have you believe you can just keep on progressing over and over and it never works that way. Yes there is a long way you can go but there will always be a ceiling limit to how high you can get to.

Obviously the higher your blasts and the lower your cruises as well as the durations of each are massive factors. I saw that post about the guy not training for months and how he maintained and that baffled me. Did he expect to lose all his muscle in a few months... it doesn't work that way. Try not training for 3 years and come back to us. I believe he said no drugs but someone posted 10-20mg test per day... that's also a massive fucking difference. I have come off all drugs for many months and I have done 10-20mg test per day and it's a night/day difference in regards to maintaining your physique.

Once you build a physique it's much easier to maintain it and that goes for drugs but also training as well. That guy looked good but he wasn't some huge freak and that will always have an impact. Meaning the further away you are from your natural limit the harder it will be to maintain and the faster you will lose it. Some 300 pound freak who is taking loads of drugs and doing everything right will literally melt away if he didn't train and come off all drugs. It's just the way it is. Some TRT will make a massive difference and obviously training will make a massive difference. So if that 300 freak still trains and does TRT he can maintain a lot of muscle but it will very slowly come down over years though.

Regarding Kris Dim. Yes some people do use the term receptors and mean it in a more general sense. Although in his case it's not like that because I have seen many of his videos and he is that wrong in a lot of them. Guys like that should show you how basic bodybuilding can be meaning if you have the genetics and do the basics you will go far. You don't need to understand everything to do with NR3C4 to be able to build a great physique. He may have took low doses but he really talks down about bodybuilding today and acts like pretty standard protocols are crazy. It surprises me because he definitely went through periods of pushing it. He also pushed SEO massively and was injecting it all over at some point so I don't get the way he acts these days.

 

[Skip]

I won’t argue that receptors shut down, but I will say this:

I’ve seen too many clients, friends, and competitors who were on cycle for years who started to look like shit—flat, soft, almost an “over-dieted” look, but they weren’t in a deficit. These same people finally come off cycle for 6-12 months, and when they go back on, they look like a completely different person/physique.

Yes, coming off cycle and taking a break could be argued that it’s correlative and not causative; I get that. However, I’ve seen it happen often enough that I absolutely believe that the longer you stay on, the look just isn’t as impressive.

I can think of an example of someone (that most people reading this would know) who has this look, and only comes off cycle (or down to TRT+) when he’s injured. I know this look because I’ve personally experienced it, and that’s what made me take a closer look at it.

Skip

 

[pickapeck]

Based on my blood work and past experience 8 weeks is the spot but weeks 5-8 suck donkey giblets. When i still recovered 12 - 16 weeks was very restorative, longer even better for health if you still recover. The creation was good to me that way into my mid 50s. Off for 12 - 16 = better cardio, joints healed, sexual function was normal etc etc. I use to have a rule that no one would follow these days, especially in the BBing crowd. First 8 weeks off sucks especially after week 3. Second 8 weeks is better. Third 8 week period is return to natty gains. Now 24 weeks off would be sacrilege but i really didn't give a fuck. At about the 16 week mark I would feel way more healthy. By week 20 I would be thinking about just staying off and I did that for years at a time more than once over the 36 years in this diabolical chemical experiment. I was a martial arts guy and not someone that needed to look tip top year around or walk around at 280 lbs.

But receptor shut down? Meh i don't think so. It's more a number of different systems just degrading and needing a break. go off for a while and the stuff works again but yo yoing is tough on the ego if you base it on how you look in the mirror and that extra 15% in the gym.

 

[Biggerp73]

I can think of an example of someone (that most people reading this would know) who has this look, and only comes off cycle (or down to TRT+) when he’s injured. I know this look because I’ve personally experienced it, and that’s what made me take a closer look at it.

Skip

Gotta be Nick Walker

 

[emeric delczeg]

You'll find a much more detailed, in-depth literature based comprehensive overview by, Scott Howell, PhD in this video. It's been posted here on a few occasions. Scott's knowledge base is unmatched by anyone in the industry.

"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About the Androgen Receptor with ..."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLQKo1QnYFrM&ved=2ahUKEwiXiOCh2fiKAxUYvokEHVr3E90Qjjh6BAgiEAE&usg=AOvVaw2zzpY_TLs-idRT4-CEBb4z

You'll find a much more detailed, in-depth literature based comprehensive overview by, Scott Howell, PhD in this video. It's been posted here on a few occasions. Scott's knowledge base is unmatched by anyone in the industry.

"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About the Androgen Receptor with ..."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLQKo1QnYFrM&ved=2ahUKEwiXiOCh2fiKAxUYvokEHVr3E90Qjjh6BAgiEAE&usg=AOvVaw2zzpY_TLs-idRT4-CEBb4z

You'll find a much more detailed, in-depth literature based comprehensive overview by, Scott Howell, PhD in this video. It's been posted here on a few occasions. Scott's knowledge base is unmatched by anyone in the industry.

"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About the Androgen Receptor with ..."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLQKo1QnYFrM&ved=2ahUKEwiXiOCh2fiKAxUYvokEHVr3E90Qjjh6BAgiEAE&usg=AOvVaw2zzpY_TLs-idRT4-CEBb4z

I contacted the clinic, Scott is no longer at the clinic, I emailed information the other MD regarding FGFs and my theory on partial agonist activity of exogeneous testosterone use. He is not the first MD that never looked into FGFs.

 

[specter]

Found this today..

Downregulation of Androgen Receptors upon Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids: A Cause or a Flawed Hypothesis of the Muscle-Building Plateau?

Researchers and health practitioners seek to understand the upper limit of muscle hypertrophy under different conditions. Although there are models to estimate the muscle-building threshold in drug-free resistance training practitioners, little is known about the population using...

www.mdpi.com

 

[Stewie]

Based on my blood work and past experience 8 weeks is the spot but weeks 5-8 suck donkey giblets. When i still recovered 12 - 16 weeks was very restorative, longer even better for health if you still recover. The creation was good to me that way into my mid 50s. Off for 12 - 16 = better cardio, joints healed, sexual function was normal etc etc. I use to have a rule that no one would follow these days, especially in the BBing crowd. First 8 weeks off sucks especially after week 3. Second 8 weeks is better. Third 8 week period is return to natty gains. Now 24 weeks off would be sacrilege but i really didn't give a fuck. At about the 16 week mark I would feel way more healthy. By week 20 I would be thinking about just staying off and I did that for years at a time more than once over the 36 years in this diabolical chemical experiment. I was a martial arts guy and not someone that needed to look tip top year around or walk around at 280 lbs.

But receptor shut down? Meh i don't think so. It's more a number of different systems just degrading and needing a break. go off for a while and the stuff works again but yo yoing is tough on the ego if you base it on how you look in the mirror and that extra 15% in the gym.

This has been my principle belief, as well.

I was going to place this "food for thought" in my previous commentaries. As it was at that time, I had several other things to do.

Nevertheless.

Since we're hypothesizing receptor dynamic. Which has been a contagious regurgitated conversation for quite some-time throughout different social media platforms and forums.

Discussion or lack thereof about post translation of the androgen receptor -the communication that occurs giving the proteins (mRNA-miRNA) towards gene expression- isn't talked about. There's hundreds, upon hundreds of androgen specific genes that are either up-regulated or down-regulated post translation after translocation of the androgen response element, blah, blah, blah to the nucleus where homodimerization occurs towards target gene expressions.

What if some of these post translation genes, proteins, enzymatic pathways aren't responding appropriately, even though these nuclear receptor(s) (AR) are sending the proper communications?

Do we still place blame upon the androgen receptor? Or, could there be epigenetic modifications by other regulators of myogenic differentiation and proliferation, particularly the activation and fusion of satellite cell number and myonuclear accretion.

 

[Skip]

“I won’t argue that receptors shut down…”

I want to clarify because my statement above may sound ambiguous.

I’m saying that I won’t argue whether receptors “shut down” or not. I honestly don’t know for sure that is the case or not.

I’m just saying that after being on cycle for long periods of time (I’m talking up to a year or longer), there becomes this “tired” look to the physique.

Skip

 

[Biggerp73]

This has been my principle belief, as well.

I was going to place this "food for thought" in my previous commentaries. As it was at that time, I had several other things to do.

Nevertheless.

Since we're hypothesizing receptor dynamic. Which has been a contagious regurgitated conversation for quite some-time throughout different social media platforms and forums.

Discussion or lack thereof about post translation of the androgen receptor -the communication that occurs giving the proteins (mRNA-miRNA) towards gene expression- isn't talked about. There's hundreds, upon hundreds of androgen specific genes that are either up-regulated or down-regulated post translation after translocation of the androgen response element, blah, blah, blah to the nucleus where homodimerization occurs towards target gene expressions.

What if some of these post translation genes, proteins, enzymatic pathways aren't responding appropriately, even though these nuclear receptor(s) (AR) are sending the proper communications?

Do we still place blame upon the androgen receptor? Or, could there be epigenetic modifications by other regulators of myogenic differentiation and proliferation, particularly the activation and fusion of satellite cell number and myonuclear accretion.

Plus non-AR mediated effects

 

[Stewie]

Plus non-AR mediated effects

Yes. That was my concluding comments.

Do we still place blame upon the androgen receptor? Or, could there be epigenetic modifications by other regulators of myogenic differentiation and proliferation, particularly the activation and fusion of satellite cell number and myonuclear accretion.