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More of my thoughts on Cholesterol and where we go wrong

mountaindog1

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I want to share my opinion on certain aspects of cholesterol. I am sure there are some who disagree, but that's ok...I'm giving my thoughts anyway.

So LDL and total cholesterol readings...that is what we should focus on right?

My answer is hell no, and let me explain why in the simplest way i can.

- First of all there isn’t good or bad cholesterol at all. It’s all the same initially. The carriers of cholesterol, lipoproteins are where we get HDL and LDL. (It's just the name of the carriers that tote it around our blood).

Should we be happy when our LDL is in range. My opinion...not necessarily. Do you want to know what really matters?

Think of a road….cars (or carriers/lipoproteins) are carrying passengers (cholesterol). Does it matter how many people are in the cars? Nope. What causes traffic jams and accidents, are the number of cars on the road. The road is our arteries by the way in my analogy. This is called particle number/concentration. The more cars you have, the more danger there is.

Now.....key point here...

The number you get for your LDL is just the amount being carried around in your LDL carriers we'll call them, not the number of carriers/cars on the road - again, that is called particle concentration.

Now, here is another part I want to drive home.

Ok so now think about this. Let’s say we have 10 gallons of Karboload, in 10 containers. Now let’s say we have 10 gallons of Karboload in 100 containers. It’s still the SAME amount of karboload (cholesterol), but in the second case, you have 100 gallons so MORE PARTICLES! You could have a traditionally great LDL number. It does NOT matter. What does matter is how many particles are carrying it around. The more you have, the more the risk of crashing on the road (lodging in the lumen in an artery). Typically people with insulin resistance have this problem or people that eat junk carbs frequently.

Why is this? Because their carriers/lipoprotiens have much more triglycerides in them. So there is less cholesterol due to this in the carrier.....so we need more carriers...again, not good. If you want to increase particle concentration or the number of carriers, just go to 7/11 and drink a load of HFCS laden Big Gulps every day.

Another factor that is really important is Apo B. If people seem interested in this thread and topic, we can go down that road, cause it's important as well. We can also get into fibrinogen, C-reactive protein, measures that really matter.....not total cholesterol.....

Moral of this, you want to get a test done that measures LDL concentration (number of carriers) and LDL particle size..as there does seem to be alot of evidence that smaller cars on the road crash easier and aren't as bouyant.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense...it's later, but all this cholesterol nonsense being perpetuated just annoys me.
 
Another great write up by John. Its great to read good threads about stuff that can help us with our health and longevity instead of reading every other thread talking about Tren.

Great write up as always John. I am really enjoying and learning from the great articles in the private section of your web site. Keep up the good work buddy!!!
 
Very interesting perspective. I'd like to hear more.
 
Great post and Ive read about all of this too and we shouldnt really focus on the LDL numbers but rather particles size and the tests to get are the ones you mentioned...I wish I could remember the article and author now but it was a good one and reflected on everything you just talked about.
 
I want to share my opinion on certain aspects of cholesterol. I am sure there are some who disagree, but that's ok...I'm giving my thoughts anyway.

So LDL and total cholesterol readings...that is what we should focus on right?

My answer is hell no, and let me explain why in the simplest way i can.

- First of all there isn’t good or bad cholesterol at all. It’s all the same initially. The carriers of cholesterol, lipoproteins are where we get HDL and LDL. (It's just the name of the carriers that tote it around our blood).

Should we be happy when our LDL is in range. My opinion...not necessarily. Do you want to know what really matters?

Think of a road….cars (or carriers/lipoproteins) are carrying passengers (cholesterol). Does it matter how many people are in the cars? Nope. What causes traffic jams and accidents, are the number of cars on the road. The road is our arteries by the way in my analogy. This is called particle number/concentration. The more cars you have, the more danger there is.

Now.....key point here...

The number you get for your LDL is just the amount being carried around in your LDL carriers we'll call them, not the number of carriers/cars on the road - again, that is called particle concentration.

Now, here is another part I want to drive home.

Ok so now think about this. Let’s say we have 10 gallons of Karboload, in 10 containers. Now let’s say we have 10 gallons of Karboload in 100 containers. It’s still the SAME amount of karboload (cholesterol), but in the second case, you have 100 gallons so MORE PARTICLES! You could have a traditionally great LDL number. It does NOT matter. What does matter is how many particles are carrying it around. The more you have, the more the risk of crashing on the road (lodging in the lumen in an artery). Typically people with insulin resistance have this problem or people that eat junk carbs frequently.

Why is this? Because their carriers/lipoprotiens have much more triglycerides in them. So there is less cholesterol due to this in the carrier.....so we need more carriers...again, not good. If you want to increase particle concentration or the number of carriers, just go to 7/11 and drink a load of HFCS laden Big Gulps every day.

Another factor that is really important is Apo B. If people seem interested in this thread and topic, we can go down that road, cause it's important as well. We can also get into fibrinogen, C-reactive protein, measures that really matter.....not total cholesterol.....

Moral of this, you want to get a test done that measures LDL concentration (number of carriers) and LDL particle size..as there does seem to be alot of evidence that smaller cars on the road crash easier and aren't as bouyant.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense...it's later, but all this cholesterol nonsense being perpetuated just annoys me.


So are you saying our HDL and LDL numbers could be in range and we still have problems?
 
What are the names of the tests?

LDL-C and NMR LipoProfile?
 
I want to share my opinion on certain aspects of cholesterol. I am sure there are some who disagree, but that's ok...I'm giving my thoughts anyway.

So LDL and total cholesterol readings...that is what we should focus on right?

My answer is hell no, and let me explain why in the simplest way i can.

- First of all there isn’t good or bad cholesterol at all. It’s all the same initially. The carriers of cholesterol, lipoproteins are where we get HDL and LDL. (It's just the name of the carriers that tote it around our blood).

Should we be happy when our LDL is in range. My opinion...not necessarily. Do you want to know what really matters?

Think of a road….cars (or carriers/lipoproteins) are carrying passengers (cholesterol). Does it matter how many people are in the cars? Nope. What causes traffic jams and accidents, are the number of cars on the road. The road is our arteries by the way in my analogy. This is called particle number/concentration. The more cars you have, the more danger there is.

Now.....key point here...

The number you get for your LDL is just the amount being carried around in your LDL carriers we'll call them, not the number of carriers/cars on the road - again, that is called particle concentration.

Now, here is another part I want to drive home.

Ok so now think about this. Let’s say we have 10 gallons of Karboload, in 10 containers. Now let’s say we have 10 gallons of Karboload in 100 containers. It’s still the SAME amount of karboload (cholesterol), but in the second case, you have 100 gallons so MORE PARTICLES! You could have a traditionally great LDL number. It does NOT matter. What does matter is how many particles are carrying it around. The more you have, the more the risk of crashing on the road (lodging in the lumen in an artery). Typically people with insulin resistance have this problem or people that eat junk carbs frequently.

Why is this? Because their carriers/lipoprotiens have much more triglycerides in them. So there is less cholesterol due to this in the carrier.....so we need more carriers...again, not good. If you want to increase particle concentration or the number of carriers, just go to 7/11 and drink a load of HFCS laden Big Gulps every day.

Another factor that is really important is Apo B. If people seem interested in this thread and topic, we can go down that road, cause it's important as well. We can also get into fibrinogen, C-reactive protein, measures that really matter.....not total cholesterol.....

Moral of this, you want to get a test done that measures LDL concentration (number of carriers) and LDL particle size..as there does seem to be alot of evidence that smaller cars on the road crash easier and aren't as bouyant.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense...it's later, but all this cholesterol nonsense being perpetuated just annoys me.

:yeahthat:

This man knows what he is talking about, a lot of what you see and what you interpret is so very wrong on these subjects. Elaborate more, if I could, I would...but english is not my first language and when I try to explain I just sound retarded.

:banghead:
 
i think your right on the whole cholesterol thing having a wife that has an inflametory disease i can tell you first hand how when her body inflames how the stress on her body is ,there is no dought in my mind that a lifesyle that causes inflamation is more likely a killer then cholesterol
 
So are you saying our HDL and LDL numbers could be in range and we still have problems?

Correct - but I will say this. There is a mountain of evidence that when HDL is high, LDL particle size is large and concentration is small (very good things) and not damaging (not cause and effect, just correlation)...now that is debatable, but the majority of the good evidence I have seen supports this. I think having high HDL is very good and very important.

If you have low HDL, I think your LDL, even though a good number, could still not tell the story because the number of LDLs or particle concentration COULD be high. Low HDL = BAD. LDL....the number might mean zich - just depends on particle concentration.

If I were going to focus on the standard lipid panel values, i would want high HDL, and low triglycerides....I wouldn't give a crap about total cholesterol, and not so much with LDL either.

And by the way, half of the people that have heart attacks have "normal" cholesterol. I gotta dig up some stuff, I had some good info to that more people have issues with low cholesterol than people with high cholesterol when you look at that meaningless total cholesterol number.
 
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i think your right on the whole cholesterol thing having a wife that has an inflametory disease i can tell you first hand how when her body inflames how the stress on her body is ,there is no dought in my mind that a lifesyle that causes inflamation is more likely a killer then cholesterol

YES! Inflammation....without inflammation little to none of this bad ldl stuff attaches to walls to protect....lots of evidence to support that my friend.
 
What are the names of the tests?

LDL-C and NMR LipoProfile?

I am going to scan a copy of a battery of tests tomorrow...I have a guy sending me his bloodwork and he just had all of these done...Im off to bed...but I'll do that tomorrow or at latest this weekend so you guys can see...

and we can change the world :)

JM

but yes LDL-C, LDL-P, Apo B, sdLDL, and more...another good one is Myeloperixidase (for inflammation)
 
Correct - but I will say this. There is a mountain of evidence that when HDL is high, LDL particle size is large and concentration is small (very good things) and not damaging (not cause and effect, just correlation)...now that is debatable, but the majority of the good evidence I have seen supports this. I think having high HDL is very good and very important.

If you have low HDL, I think your LDL, even though a good number, could still not tell the story because the number of LDLs or particle concentration COULD be high. Low HDL = BAD. LDL....the number might mean zich - just depends on particle concentration.

If I were going to focus on the standard lipid panel values, i would want high HDL, and low triglycerides....I wouldn't give a crap about total cholesterol, and not so much with LDL either.

And by the way, half of the people that have heart attacks have "normal" cholesterol. I gotta dig up some stuff, I had some good info to that more people have issues with low cholesterol than people with high cholesterol when you look at that meaningless total cholesterol number.

Pure majesty JM.
I don't have a fraction of the knowledge you do on the subject but I know enough to put my focus on increasing my HDL. That above all else dictates the compounds I will select [or not] as well as their dose and duration based on previous bloodwork. Of course I have a diet and supps also tailored to support and increase HDL as well.

Now John if you could only convince our esteemed friend Mack Truck to boost his HDL up. Sadly his fat free vegan diet has greatly reduced HDL; granted his LDL is way low as well but I don't share his view that less is better.

Anyway, fantastic info and thanks again for sharing
 
we have talked before about her crohns when it flares her blood preasure goes through the roof i think some of this is from pain but also i think it inflames her artieies even her joints start to hurt . my dad had total cholesterol of 180 had a slight blockage no heart attack as soon as they put him on lipitor he has not been the same back and knees always hurting and cant walk very far at all keep the good info coming
 
I am going to scan a copy of a battery of tests tomorrow...I have a guy sending me his bloodwork and he just had all of these done...Im off to bed...but I'll do that tomorrow or at latest this weekend so you guys can see...

and we can change the world :)

JM

but yes LDL-C, LDL-P, Apo B, sdLDL, and more...another good one is Myeloperixidase (for inflammation)


Ok GREAT!

I am all for it! :)

I was going to get the old fashion ldl and hdl test in a week or 2 anyways.

Unfortunately I just checked Labcorp and directlabs but have not found those 2 test yet.

Uggg moutain you and your good ideas :D
 
thanks as usual John... now slightly off topic but can you let us know what you and modok are up to??
 
Great to have you here helping us out. Peace.
 
What really causes Heart Disease

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really Causes Heart Disease
Dr. Dwight Lundell
PreventDisease
Thu, 01 Mar 2012 21:58 CST
© n/aWe physicians with all our training, knowledge and authority often acquire a rather large ego that tends to make it difficult to admit we are wrong. So, here it is. I freely admit to being wrong. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having performed over 5,000 open-heart surgeries, today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific fact.

I trained for many years with other prominent physicians labelled "opinion makers." Bombarded with scientific literature, continually attending education seminars, we opinion makers insisted heart disease resulted from the simple fact of elevated blood cholesterol.

The only accepted therapy was prescribing medications to lower cholesterol and a diet that severely restricted fat intake. The latter of course we insisted would lower cholesterol and heart disease. Deviations from these recommendations were considered heresy and could quite possibly result in malpractice.

It Is Not Working!

These recommendations are no longer scientifically or morally defensible. The discovery a few years ago that inflammation in the artery wall is the real cause of heart disease is slowly leading to a paradigm shift in how heart disease and other chronic ailments will be treated.

The long-established dietary recommendations have created epidemics of obesity and diabetes, the consequences of which dwarf any historical plague in terms of mortality, human suffering and dire economic consequences.

Despite the fact that 25% of the population takes expensive statin medications and despite the fact we have reduced the fat content of our diets, more Americans will die this year of heart disease than ever before.

Statistics from the American Heart Association show that 75 million Americans currently suffer from heart disease, 20 million have diabetes and 57 million have pre-diabetes. These disorders are affecting younger and younger people in greater numbers every year.

Simply stated, without inflammation being present in the body, there is no way that cholesterol would accumulate in the wall of the blood vessel and cause heart disease and strokes. Without inflammation, cholesterol would move freely throughout the body as nature intended. It is inflammation that causes cholesterol to become trapped.

Inflammation is not complicated -- it is quite simply your body's natural defence to a foreign invader such as a bacteria, toxin or virus. The cycle of inflammation is perfect in how it protects your body from these bacterial and viral invaders. However, if we chronically expose the body to injury by toxins or foods the human body was never designed to process,a condition occurs called chronic inflammation. Chronic inflammation is just as harmful as acute inflammation is beneficial.

What thoughtful person would willfully expose himself repeatedly to foods or other substances that are known to cause injury to the body? Well, smokers perhaps, but at least they made that choice willfully.

The rest of us have simply followed the recommended mainstream diet that is low in fat and high in polyunsaturated fats and carbohydrates, not knowing we were causing repeated injury to our blood vessels. This repeated injury creates chronic inflammation leading to heart disease, stroke, diabetes and obesity.

Let me repeat that: The injury and inflammation in our blood vessels is caused by the low fat diet recommended for years by mainstream medicine.

What are the biggest culprits of chronic inflammation? Quite simply, they are the overload of simple, highly processed carbohydrates (sugar, flour and all the products made from them) and the excess consumption of omega-6 vegetable oils like soybean, corn and sunflower that are found in many processed foods.

Take a moment to visualize rubbing a stiff brush repeatedly over soft skin until it becomes quite red and nearly bleeding. you kept this up several times a day, every day for five years. If you could tolerate this painful brushing, you would have a bleeding, swollen infected area that became worse with each repeated injury. This is a good way to visualize the inflammatory process that could be going on in your body right now.

Regardless of where the inflammatory process occurs, externally or internally, it is the same. I have peered inside thousands upon thousands of arteries. A diseased artery looks as if someone took a brush and scrubbed repeatedly against its wall. Several times a day, every day, the foods we eat create small injuries compounding into more injuries, causing the body to respond continuously and appropriately with inflammation.

While we savor the tantalizing taste of a sweet roll, our bodies respond alarmingly as if a foreign invader arrived declaring war. Foods loaded with sugars and simple carbohydrates, or processed with omega-6 oils for long shelf life have been the mainstay of the American diet for six decades. These foods have been slowly poisoning everyone.

How does eating a simple sweet roll create a cascade of inflammation to make you sick?

Imagine spilling syrup on your keyboard and you have a visual of what occurs inside the cell. When we consume simple carbohydrates such as sugar, blood sugar rises rapidly. In response, your pancreas secretes insulin whose primary purpose is to drive sugar into each cell where it is stored for energy. If the cell is full and does not need glucose, it is rejected to avoid extra sugar gumming up the works.

When your full cells reject the extra glucose, blood sugar rises producing more insulin and the glucose converts to stored fat.

What does all this have to do with inflammation? Blood sugar is controlled in a very narrow range. Extra sugar molecules attach to a variety of proteins that in turn injure the blood vessel wall. This repeated injury to the blood vessel wall sets off inflammation. When you spike your blood sugar level several times a day, every day, it is exactly like taking sandpaper to the inside of your delicate blood vessels.

While you may not be able to see it, rest assured it is there. I saw it in over 5,000 surgical patients spanning 25 years who all shared one common denominator -- inflammation in their arteries.

Let's get back to the sweet roll. That innocent looking goody not only contains sugars, it is baked in one of many omega-6 oils such as soybean. Chips and fries are soaked in soybean oil; processed foods are manufactured with omega-6 oils for longer shelf life. While omega-6's are essential -they are part of every cell membrane controlling what goes in and out of the cell -- they must be in the correct balance with omega-3's.

If the balance shifts by consuming excessive omega-6, the cell membrane produces chemicals called cytokines that directly cause inflammation.

Today's mainstream American diet has produced an extreme imbalance of these two fats. The ratio of imbalance ranges from 15:1 to as high as 30:1 in favor of omega-6. That's a tremendous amount of cytokines causing inflammation. In today's food environment, a 3:1 ratio would be optimal and healthy.

To make matters worse, the excess weight you are carrying from eating these foods creates overloaded fat cells that pour out large quantities of pro-inflammatory chemicals that add to the injury caused by having high blood sugar. The process that began with a sweet roll turns into a vicious cycle over time that creates heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes and finally, Alzheimer's disease, as the inflammatory process continues unabated.

There is no escaping the fact that the more we consume prepared and processed foods, the more we trip the inflammation switch little by little each day. The human body cannot process, nor was it designed to consume, foods packed with sugars and soaked in omega-6 oils.

There is but one answer to quieting inflammation, and that is returning to foods closer to their natural state. To build muscle, eat more protein. Choose carbohydrates that are very complex such as colorful fruits and vegetables. Cut down on or eliminate inflammation- causing omega-6 fats like corn and soybean oil and the processed foods that are made from them.

One tablespoon of corn oil contains 7,280 mg of omega-6; soybean contains 6,940 mg. Instead, use olive oil or butter from grass-fed beef.

Animal fats contain less than 20% omega-6 and are much less likely to cause inflammation than the supposedly healthy oils labelled polyunsaturated. Forget the "science" that has been drummed into your head for decades. The science that saturated fat alone causes heart disease is non-existent. The science that saturated fat raises blood cholesterol is also very weak. Since we now know that cholesterol is not the cause of heart disease, the concern about saturated fat is even more absurd today.

The cholesterol theory led to the no-fat, low-fat recommendations that in turn created the very foods now causing an epidemic of inflammation. Mainstream medicine made a terrible mistake when it advised people to avoid saturated fat in favor of foods high in omega-6 fats. We now have an epidemic of arterial inflammation leading to heart disease and other silent killers.

What you can do is choose whole foods your grandmother served and not those your mom turned to as grocery store aisles filled with manufactured foods. By eliminating inflammatory foods and adding essential nutrients from fresh unprocessed food, you will reverse years of damage in your arteries and throughout your body from consuming the typical American
 
MD, you said if your HDL is low and LDL is in range that isn't necessarily a good thing. In the original post you also said that the higher your triglycerides the more LDL/cars needed. I think, unless i misread it.

Triglyceride readings play a pretty significant role here as well then correct? If one has a lower HDL but also a low Triglyceride reading, then it's more likely that they have a reduced LDL concentration.

Am i understanding this correctly?
 
MD, you said if your HDL is low and LDL is in range that isn't necessarily a good thing. In the original post you also said that the higher your triglycerides the more LDL/cars needed. I think, unless i misread it.

When people are diabetics, get insulin resistant and just overdue it on carbs, especially HFCS, their LDL particles carry more triglceride than usual. With less actual cholesterol, you need more lipoproteins (LDL in this case) to carry the same amount...so more damage.

This is why diabetics and people with bad fasting glucose need to be careful because it can lead to heart disease...that is one of the primary mechanisms right there
.


Triglyceride readings play a pretty significant role here as well then correct? If one has a lower HDL but also a low Triglyceride reading, then it's more likely that they have a reduced LDL concentration.

I would say that the correlation (I did not say cause) is that when people have low HDL, they are more likely to have INCREASED concentration..meaning more cars on the road to crash..not always...just come correlation there....and again, it is not a cause and effect relationship...it just seems to be very corrleational...

Am i understanding this correctly?

Keep the questions coming if my explanation didn't make sense...in some ways this stuff is simple, but in some it is so freaking complicated...haha
 
Last edited:
I wish you would put stuff like this up more often, this is great.

What are some things that work well to bring up HDL? I am already eating grass fed beef, raw milk, farm fresh eggs, etc. What else can I do that will be beneficial?
 

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