Neurotransmitters all messed up.

[smackthatAAS]

I've seen Crissler say salivary DHEA is useless.

 

[1eviathanz]

Hey bro, your HPA axis is skewed, you have all the symptoms of Adrenal Fatigue.. Honestly Ive been there. A year post cycle after traditional PCT, and primarily I think it was due to a battle with estrogens and constant stress on the Adrenals, and other stressors in my life. With additional mistake of DHT thrown in the mix for other reasons. I felt exactly like your saying.

My only suggestion and what worked for me was a restart on the pituitary level with Triptorelin acetate. ACETATE.. 100 to 200 mcg <MCG>. ONE TIME ONLY. Do not take this more then once every 4 months. This is pretty much the reset button for hpta at the pituitary level. It will also re sensitize to ACTH towards adrenals and TSH to thyroid. I guarantee you will feel A LOT better the first week, and then slowly over a month or two you will feel more balanced. Watch your estro (be sublte you dont want it too low) with Exemestane during the first week. Dont over do it though with the AI.. I wouldn't go stressing over the details of each resulting neurotransmitter, and would be focusing more upstream..

 

[Simpllyhuge]

What about salivary cortisol? Thinking about doing those, since on most days when I can't wake up, I also can't wake up to get blood work

 

[rj2012]

Very interesting ! I think I have this exact same issue! When I was in the military this was the biggest issue especially during basic, I noticed this happened and started paying more attention to this after AAS so im wondering if it had something to do with the receptors, I HATE it! I went and got bloodwork in the military and tried to see if they could figure it out and they couldn't , I never considered it could be the Adrenals though !! I think I know EXACTLY how you feel, its like people say to watch your diet/get enough sleep / exercise etc, but I DO all of that stuff and its like sometimes its just like fuck I feel like everything I do takes all the energy out of me and I just want to moap around and I feel like such a fucking slug, im not tired I just feel extremely sluggish and every little fucking physical task is so hard and is a pain in the ass! I dont EVER recall having this feeling when I was younger/ or before starting AAS. It seems like its getting worse now that im back on my blast.

Also ! How do you feel about your gains on cycle, are they pretty low or does it take a high dose for you to respond? Right now im running about 200 mg tren ed and even though im dieting down im not noticing much and people I have spoken to say I should be feeling and seeing results almost daily but it's definitely not like that so im thinking the Adrenal Glands or receptors could have some effect on this.

We really need to get to the bottom of this!

Yeah man you've got it. It's really hard for me because I'm going to school for computer science full time, and I'm starting an internship that'll be 30-40 hrs a week and I don't know how I'm going to handle. Probably tons of caffeine but I'm also worried that caffeine will make things worse in the end.

As far as my cycles went I listed it above, but I was taking quite a bit and no my gains werent too significant. I'd gain 15 lbs while my friends doing the same would put on 30. I would pyramid test up to 800 and equipoise up to 600 with dbol as a kicker. I probably did too much. I got advice from a different board to do another pct and I think that made me even worse.

My prolactin was mildly high so I was told to use some cabergoline, which knocked it out, but I never even got the insane sex drive people who take caber talk about. So, I dunno whatsup.

Did I mention that I get constant PVC's(wierd heartbeat). Dr's say it's harmless.

 

[rj2012]

Hey bro, your HPA axis is skewed, you have all the symptoms of Adrenal Fatigue.. Honestly Ive been there. A year post cycle after traditional PCT, and primarily I think it was due to a battle with estrogens and constant stress on the Adrenals, and other stressors in my life. With additional mistake of DHT thrown in the mix for other reasons. I felt exactly like your saying.

My only suggestion and what worked for me was a restart on the pituitary level with Triptorelin acetate. ACETATE.. 100 to 200 mcg <MCG>. ONE TIME ONLY. Do not take this more then once every 4 months. This is pretty much the reset button for hpta at the pituitary level. It will also re sensitize to ACTH towards adrenals and TSH to thyroid. I guarantee you will feel A LOT better the first week, and then slowly over a month or two you will feel more balanced. Watch your estro (be sublte you dont want it too low) with Exemestane during the first week. Dont over do it though with the AI.. I wouldn't go stressing over the details of each resulting neurotransmitter, and would be focusing more upstream..

I like what your saying, a chance to feel better. But that stuff sounds like its pretty serious. I'd be scared to try it without a doc saying it's a good idea...I'll do some research on it though. Thx a lot.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

Sounds awesome, I need to read up on that. Any good articles?

 

[sazo75]

Wow!

Yeah man you've got it. It's really hard for me because I'm going to school for computer science full time, and I'm starting an internship that'll be 30-40 hrs a week and I don't know how I'm going to handle. Probably tons of caffeine but I'm also worried that caffeine will make things worse in the end.

As far as my cycles went I listed it above, but I was taking quite a bit and no my gains werent too significant. I'd gain 15 lbs while my friends doing the same would put on 30. I would pyramid test up to 800 and equipoise up to 600 with dbol as a kicker. I probably did too much. I got advice from a different board to do another pct and I think that made me even worse.

My prolactin was mildly high so I was told to use some cabergoline, which knocked it out, but I never even got the insane sex drive people who take caber talk about. So, I dunno whatsup.

Did I mention that I get constant PVC's(wierd heartbeat). Dr's say it's harmless.

Wow , now this is odd, I have had the exact same thing happen to me with gains, heartbeat ( which all of a sudden stopped, I have noticed but I remember it coming up not to long ago), and yes I wasn't making anywhere near as good gains as my training partners would on the same cycle with higher dosages and diet was also way better then theirs, also I experience prolactin issues as well but never used caber, I kind of just left it alone. Caffeine can sometimes help but it doesn't last all day like I wish it would and it sucks ass! I would do anything to have all the energy I use to have ! I dont get how this develops and how it cures exactly?

Everytime I went for bloodwork they wouldn't exactly know and says maybe some Anti Depressants might help but I'm sure as hell not emotional or have any of that worrying me, so its really odd.

 

[sazo75]

Iv messed with test, tren, dbol, t3, clen , winny, superdrol, and masteron. I noticed the prolactin mainly from the Superdrol and a little from the tren.

 

[1eviathanz]

I like what your saying, a chance to feel better. But that stuff sounds like its pretty serious. I'd be scared to try it without a doc saying it's a good idea...I'll do some research on it though. Thx a lot.

Yeah man I researched for awhile too. This is very cutting edge application. Triptorelin is used in very high doses with long lasting esters (not acetate) for for shutting down test production deliberately ( 4 prostate cAncer ect..). The reason it cause this at such high doses (4-10mg) - 1000's x ur dose - is because it overstimulates the pituitary. Which then comepletely down regulates in attempt to reach homeostasis. However a one time very small dose has the opposite effect, and will jump start the axis. In your case it's not so much lh and fsh, as it is adrenal and thyroid function ACTH and TSH which in itself is a very complicated balancing act when out of whack... Hence why u feel like shit.. You can check out allthingsmale.com where leading practioners of trt utilize this

 

[1eviathanz]

You could also rub on a little topical pregnenolone cream 20-50 gm (easy to find) and I guarantee you will feel a difference in 20 minutes. This however is temporary fix to an unbalanced system. Been there man good luck

 

[Stewie]

I posted those links earlier as a Tutorial from very educated physicians dealing with the Neuroendocrine system.

I'll give you a brush over of my findings through research and asking questions directly on those sites. You'll find that unless you have a congenital enzyme deficiency unable too synthesize certain amino acids that metabolize either directly or indirectly too neurotransmitters, you'll be throwing darts in the dark with some not all of salivary and urinary neurotransmitter metabolites,for the most part do not show what is going on in the brain. Some of the neurotransmitters, epinephrine in particular, have wildly fluctuating levels depending on the person’s sate of mind. When someone is approaching you with a needle to draw blood, the levels will be very high within a few seconds, so blood levels do not give a picture of the person’s rising neurotransmitter levels.

In short, neurotransmitters are used all over the body to transmit information and signals. They are manufactured and used by neurons (nerve cells) and are release into the synaptic clefts between the neurons.

You mentioned you've had PVT's? Do you realize elevated Estradiol levels raise both Cortisol and Ephedrine and adrenaline that would possibly cause PVT's, Cortisol like Epi can fluctuate at any time causing spikes and lows with Epi.

Also, Androstanediol Is a Positive Allosteric Modulator of GABA Receptors,Androstenediol is a Metabolite of Testosterone. Progesterone increases the effect of GABA and reduces neurotransmitter activity. Estradiol decreases the level of the enzyme which inactivates the serotonin and dopamine, Prolactin and Estradiol influence both serotonin and dopamine.

Progesterone metabolises to AlloPregenolone which is a fell good hormone ( Neurotransmitter). Did you use hCG during your cycle? In mouse models it's shown that leydig cell MA-10 cells, progesterone was largely metabolized by 5alpha-reductase and subsequently converted by 3-keto steroid reductases to allopregnanolone.
hCG is strongly correlated too 17 hydroxyprogesterone intratesticular, which in return metabolises to Pregenolone >allopregnolne.


My point is your chasing The Neuroendocrine system hap hazardous, start with the major sex hormones and Thyroid hormones by serum testing, you altered these by injecting exogenous hormones, these indirectly influence our Neuroendocrine system. Check for other possible deficiencies, B-12, Folic Acid, Iodine, Zinc and copper ratio ect, ect, ect.

 

[rj2012]

I posted those links earlier as a Tutorial from very educated physicians dealing with the Neuroendocrine system.

I'll give you a brush over of my findings through research and asking questions directly on those sites. You'll find that unless you have a congenital enzyme deficiency unable too synthesize certain amino acids that metabolize either directly or indirectly too neurotransmitters, you'll be throwing darts in the dark with some not all of salivary and urinary neurotransmitter metabolites,for the most part do not show what is going on in the brain. Some of the neurotransmitters, epinephrine in particular, have wildly fluctuating levels depending on the person’s sate of mind. When someone is approaching you with a needle to draw blood, the levels will be very high within a few seconds, so blood levels do not give a picture of the person’s rising neurotransmitter levels.

In short, neurotransmitters are used all over the body to transmit information and signals. They are manufactured and used by neurons (nerve cells) and are release into the synaptic clefts between the neurons.

You mentioned you've had PVT's? Do you realize elevated Estradiol levels raise both Cortisol and Ephedrine and adrenaline that would possibly cause PVT's, Cortisol like Epi can fluctuate at any time causing spikes and lows with Epi.

Also, Androstanediol Is a Positive Allosteric Modulator of GABA Receptors,Androstenediol is a Metabolite of Testosterone. Progesterone increases the effect of GABA and reduces neurotransmitter activity. Estradiol decreases the level of the enzyme which inactivates the serotonin and dopamine, Prolactin and Estradiol influence both serotonin and dopamine.

Progesterone metabolises to AlloPregenolone which is a fell good hormone ( Neurotransmitter). Did you use hCG during your cycle? In mouse models it's shown that leydig cell MA-10 cells, progesterone was largely metabolized by 5alpha-reductase and subsequently converted by 3-keto steroid reductases to allopregnanolone.
hCG is strongly correlated too 17 hydroxyprogesterone intratesticular, which in return metabolises to Pregenolone >allopregnolne.


My point is your chasing The Neuroendocrine system hap hazardous, start with the major sex hormones and Thyroid hormones by serum testing, you altered these by injecting exogenous hormones, these indirectly influence our Neuroendocrine system. Check for other possible deficiencies, B-12, Folic Acid, Iodine, Zinc and copper ratio ect, ect, ect.

Thanks a lot for the thorough post, I appreciate the time you took to write this. You talk about elevated estradiol causing raising epinephrine and cortisol and causing my PVC's, you wrote PVT, so I want to make sure were talking about pre-ventricular contractions. Anyhow, my epinephrine isn't raise, neither is my cortisol or estradiol, so Im not sure why you were referring to this.

You talked also about how I need to start with the basics, the sex hormones and thyroids. Just so you know I have. I've been chasing this problem for a year and half with doctors. My testosterone and estrogens have been good, so has my thyroid as far as my doc was concerned. My testosterone metabolites in urine were a bit low, but the last time we checked in the blood they were in the 700s. The reason that were checking out these neurotransmitters is because the doc and I have checked most of the basic things .

I appreciate the idea to check for the vitamin defeciencies and I'll definitely look in to that.

 

[sazo75]

Thanks a lot for the thorough post, I appreciate the time you took to write this. You talk about elevated estradiol causing raising epinephrine and cortisol and causing my PVC's, you wrote PVT, so I want to make sure were talking about pre-ventricular contractions. Anyhow, my epinephrine isn't raise, neither is my cortisol or estradiol, so Im not sure why you were referring to this.

You talked also about how I need to start with the basics, the sex hormones and thyroids. Just so you know I have. I've been chasing this problem for a year and half with doctors. My testosterone and estrogens have been good, so has my thyroid as far as my doc was concerned. My testosterone metabolites in urine were a bit low, but the last time we checked in the blood they were in the 700s. The reason that were checking out these neurotransmitters is because the doc and I have checked most of the basic things .

I appreciate the idea to check for the vitamin defeciencies and I'll definitely look in to that.

Same thing here , I had all my blood work tests come back normal , and when they checked the thyroid they also said it was normal, which left the dr a bit confused and thats when he said maybe I should start taking Anti Depressants, did he mention this to you at all? He definitely didn't seem confident about it and I could tell he was kind of just bullshitting and trying to throw something out there but I told him id rather not have to use those.

Interesting piece that Stewie mentioned about how "My point is your chasing The Neuroendocrine system hap hazardous, start with the major sex hormones and Thyroid hormones by serum testing, you altered these by injecting exogenous hormones, these indirectly influence our Neuroendocrine system." Is this really the key that we messed up on being we injected something synthetic and now our bodies got something messed up because of something dealing with the Neuroendocrine system?

Still very curious about how the hell this gets solved? Surely theres other people with this same problem? I know for a fact if it wasn't for this problem I would be out there doing something way more physically tough and making more money but iv had to refuse offers because it just seems like I get so sluggish and I hate the feeling, its like I move so fucking slow and I cant get rid of it , when I try to tell myself GET YOUR ASS IN GEAR MOVE IT , my body just wont respond and it acts like a damn senior citizen about to die, this is the main reason I didn't stay in the military as well , and I really wish I knew what the deal was. Theres absolutely no reason why im not more energetic, diet/exercise/still in my 20's / plenty of sleep, it just doesn't make sense :banghead:

 

[rj2012]

Same thing here , I had all my blood work tests come back normal , and when they checked the thyroid they also said it was normal, which left the dr a bit confused and thats when he said maybe I should start taking Anti Depressants, did he mention this to you at all? He definitely didn't seem confident about it and I could tell he was kind of just bullshitting and trying to throw something out there but I told him id rather not have to use those. :banghead:

I had a doctor reccomend anti depressants as soon as he saw low testosterone and slightly low thyroid and slightly raised prolactin. My prolactin was like 38 when normal was 3-15. Anyhow he was the reason I went to a naturopath, I didn't want to take anti depressants. Now, the naturopath I'm seeing has me taking a natural herbal tincture that acts as a very 'kind' MAO inhibitor. Sounds like an anti depressant to me. He said it should raise my epinephrine because MAO converts epinephrine to whatever comes next. Whats interesting is Ive read MAO also converts other neurotransmitters which I have in a normal range, which makes me think it's not the MAO, and it hasn't made me feel better anyhow.

I'm going to be running all the ideas from this thread by my doc, and he'll probably send me to an endo, and if we make any discoveries I'll definitely post results.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

What could be a natural cause of your prolactin being high?

 

[powerclean2]

even though your testosterone seem normal ir sounds nile low testosterone symptons. did you check your shbg or free testosterone and androgen.

 

[TT]

My friend,

Drop all the supplements. I had exactly the same symptoms as you minus extensive bloodwork. I just had regular CBP, according to which I was healthy.

1) What MAO inhibitor does? It inhibits Monoamine Oxidase. MAO will oxidase your neurotransmitter (break them down, leaving H2O or H2O2 and h2o2 is hydrogen peroxide and toxic to the brain cells) So MAO inhibitor increases the amount of floating and available for reuptake dopamine, serotonin etc.

2) You also take tyrosin which is a precursor to dopamine. So you have more readily available dopamine.

3) Increased dopamine and decreased enzyme that breaks it down results in overabundanse of dopamine.

4) Overabundanse of dopamine results in ***DECREASED RECEPTOR ACTIVITY*** This, I want you to take home, becasue even if your tests show X amount of Neurotransmitters it doesn't mean those NT's doing jack shit becasue receptor won't accept them. That's something like when you were taking anabolics and didn't have same results as your friend. Your receptors are shut down. When somene is screaming at you, naturaly you tend to cover your ears because there is too much stress on your ear drums. You have to reverse this process to when you can barely hear someone you naturaly tend to turn your ear towards that person in order to pick up vibration waves.

5) Why do you think you have such high numbers on your test? Those hormones are not stimulating hormones. So it means that you are not shut down. Example: If your Thyroid works ok producing enough t3, you TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) will be let's say 2. Now if you are lacking t3, your TSH will be much higher, 5-7.

6) Before your body used to function normally on X amount of hormones/NT's. Now after your receptors are downregulated, your body needs XXX amount of hormones for the same response. And abnormal amount of ONE hormone/nt will weck the harmony in your system.

Back in the old days I was abusing all kinds of heavy rec drugs. After I quit that and started working out. Once in a while I had this flashback of apathy, depression, no motivation. So I started supplementing with stablon, cerebrolisyn, l-deprenyl, l-dopa etc. It was a fix, I started feeling better, much better, but it was a short fix. After a year I needed larger doses to have an edge. I liked it, it was like being on amphetamines, sharp, quick but then my body got used to it and this edge just became normal. When I quit all those supps, I went natural route with tyrosine, green tea extract, etc. Wellp, I got so lethargic I would stay in bed for 2 days and would get up only to piss and eat. It lasted a month, after that I started having extreme headaches ( I think due to NT disbalance). Only after that, I decided to quit all pills alltogether, and wouldn't put anything in my body unless it was food. Slowly but surely I leveled out and now I am back in the gym, all natural. My motivation and overall feeling is like back when I was 16 (i'm 29 now). I am getting out of house to socialize, I can't even hardly read news online because I feel like i'd better do something around the house. I don't even drink coffee now.

Moral of the story is: Drop all the bullshit. Drugs and supplements got you in this and to get out of it you need to go back to the time before the cause. LOL, kind of like Windows System Restore to an earlier point. Our bodies are amazing machines, the best. Give it a shot and your body will normalize itself. It might take you a month, year or 2 years, we are all different but eventually it will be ok. Just don't get on your body's way. Let it do it's job.

As a motivatioanl kick I will add this: I have some friends that were abusing chrytal meth for 10+ years. They are clean now, it was a bitch for most of them. One recovered in six month to were he just started moving beyond his house territory. Another one took 2 years. But now it has been 5 years for them and they feel and look normal. All natural!!! What they did was a nuclear war on their brains but they recovered and so will you.

Have faith and God Bless you all,

TT

 

[Stewie]

Thanks a lot for the thorough post, I appreciate the time you took to write this. You talk about elevated estradiol causing raising epinephrine and cortisol and causing my PVC's, you wrote PVT, so I want to make sure were talking about pre-ventricular contractions. Anyhow, my epinephrine isn't raise, neither is my cortisol or estradiol, so Im not sure why you were referring to this.

You talked also about how I need to start with the basics, the sex hormones and thyroids. Just so you know I have. I've been chasing this problem for a year and half with doctors. My testosterone and estrogens have been good, so has my thyroid as far as my doc was concerned. My testosterone metabolites in urine were a bit low, but the last time we checked in the blood they were in the 700s. The reason that were checking out these neurotransmitters is because the doc and I have checked most of the basic things .

I appreciate the idea to check for the vitamin defeciencies and I'll definitely look in to that.

Man give me a little Wine and I can get too rambling...Can't I?.... Geez

I'm assuming all of this manifested during or after your cycle, and this hasn't been a lifelong issue?

If these "Neuroendocrine dysfunction" occurred post cycle then the possibilities may be directed towards the Key Sex hormones you altered Testosterone, Estrogens as a whole E1, E2 and E3, Prolactin ect. We all have a natural hormonal set point with each and everyone of our Endogenous hormones,you mentioned you and your Physician have checked these hormones and feel they are ok? Again, are they within your natural set point? You didn't have labs before hand too reference back too, so no body knows what your TT, FT, TSH,T3,T4, rT3, FT3 ect, ect. Working with your physician in order to modulate you back too your natural set point is very challenging, it took me about Two years of being on HRT to where I feel normal again. Remember, Once you manipulate one hormone others try too create balance too stay in a state of Homeostasis, Continual Stimulation or staying at Supraphysiological levels for an extended period of time will inevitably down regulate down stream hormones. Example ; Epinephrine quickly reduces histamine levels. Long-term elevations of histamines can deplete the body’s supply of epinephrine. This same applies too nutritional levels, It's known that calcium inhibits Iron Absorption, So if one is anemic one should avoid calcium enriched foods during Iron enriched foods or supplementation. The list goes on and on. Have you checked into magnesium deficiency? A lot of Athletes tend too be Magnesium deficient or borderline low, Urinary Magnesium is the preferred method of checking Mag. Serum only shows a very small percentage of True Magnesium levels, Magnesium like B12 plays a role in our Neurology well-being.

These are suggestions I'm trying to point out too you, as there could be hundred's of cause of why you feel the way you do, it's narrowing it down that's the challenge, as your aware.

Good luck, hopefully you find your answer soon.

Here's another Physician that's well versed in Neuroendocrine health

**broken link removed**

 

[sazo75]

I had a doctor reccomend anti depressants as soon as he saw low testosterone and slightly low thyroid and slightly raised prolactin. My prolactin was like 38 when normal was 3-15. Anyhow he was the reason I went to a naturopath, I didn't want to take anti depressants. Now, the naturopath I'm seeing has me taking a natural herbal tincture that acts as a very 'kind' MAO inhibitor. Sounds like an anti depressant to me. He said it should raise my epinephrine because MAO converts epinephrine to whatever comes next. Whats interesting is Ive read MAO also converts other neurotransmitters which I have in a normal range, which makes me think it's not the MAO, and it hasn't made me feel better anyhow.

I'm going to be running all the ideas from this thread by my doc, and he'll probably send me to an endo, and if we make any discoveries I'll definitely post results.

Yes you will definitely have to keep us posted iv been researching this very heavily recently , do you have any idea of what you THINK might have caused this issue with you ? If so what compounds/ideas do you think it was. Im hoping theres some kind of "reset" button after taking some kind of supplement or something because I for sure as hell don't want to have to take some kind of drug to combat this for the rest of my life lol.

 

[rj2012]

My friend,

Drop all the supplements. I had exactly the same symptoms as you minus extensive bloodwork. I just had regular CBP, according to which I was healthy.

1) What MAO inhibitor does? It inhibits Monoamine Oxidase. MAO will oxidase your neurotransmitter (break them down, leaving H2O or H2O2 and h2o2 is hydrogen peroxide and toxic to the brain cells) So MAO inhibitor increases the amount of floating and available for reuptake dopamine, serotonin etc.

2) You also take tyrosin which is a precursor to dopamine. So you have more readily available dopamine.

3) Increased dopamine and decreased enzyme that breaks it down results in overabundanse of dopamine.

4) Overabundanse of dopamine results in ***DECREASED RECEPTOR ACTIVITY*** This, I want you to take home, becasue even if your tests show X amount of Neurotransmitters it doesn't mean those NT's doing jack shit becasue receptor won't accept them. That's something like when you were taking anabolics and didn't have same results as your friend. Your receptors are shut down. When somene is screaming at you, naturaly you tend to cover your ears because there is too much stress on your ear drums. You have to reverse this process to when you can barely hear someone you naturaly tend to turn your ear towards that person in order to pick up vibration waves.

5) Why do you think you have such high numbers on your test? Those hormones are not stimulating hormones. So it means that you are not shut down. Example: If your Thyroid works ok producing enough t3, you TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) will be let's say 2. Now if you are lacking t3, your TSH will be much higher, 5-7.

6) Before your body used to function normally on X amount of hormones/NT's. Now after your receptors are downregulated, your body needs XXX amount of hormones for the same response. And abnormal amount of ONE hormone/nt will weck the harmony in your system.

Back in the old days I was abusing all kinds of heavy rec drugs. After I quit that and started working out. Once in a while I had this flashback of apathy, depression, no motivation. So I started supplementing with stablon, cerebrolisyn, l-deprenyl, l-dopa etc. It was a fix, I started feeling better, much better, but it was a short fix. After a year I needed larger doses to have an edge. I liked it, it was like being on amphetamines, sharp, quick but then my body got used to it and this edge just became normal. When I quit all those supps, I went natural route with tyrosine, green tea extract, etc. Wellp, I got so lethargic I would stay in bed for 2 days and would get up only to piss and eat. It lasted a month, after that I started having extreme headaches ( I think due to NT disbalance). Only after that, I decided to quit all pills alltogether, and wouldn't put anything in my body unless it was food. Slowly but surely I leveled out and now I am back in the gym, all natural. My motivation and overall feeling is like back when I was 16 (i'm 29 now). I am getting out of house to socialize, I can't even hardly read news online because I feel like i'd better do something around the house. I don't even drink coffee now.

Moral of the story is: Drop all the bullshit. Drugs and supplements got you in this and to get out of it you need to go back to the time before the cause. LOL, kind of like Windows System Restore to an earlier point. Our bodies are amazing machines, the best. Give it a shot and your body will normalize itself. It might take you a month, year or 2 years, we are all different but eventually it will be ok. Just don't get on your body's way. Let it do it's job.

As a motivatioanl kick I will add this: I have some friends that were abusing chrytal meth for 10+ years. They are clean now, it was a bitch for most of them. One recovered in six month to were he just started moving beyond his house territory. Another one took 2 years. But now it has been 5 years for them and they feel and look normal. All natural!!! What they did was a nuclear war on their brains but they recovered and so will you.

Have faith and God Bless you all,

TT

This is such an awesome reply. Someone who has had what I'm going through and came out of it, NATURALLY. So cool. I really appreciate you taking the time to write about this, it totally gives me hope, and it would sure save a lot of money!

So you quit taking all supps huh? Even the tyrosine? I felt great today for about one hour after taking a gram of tyrosine and a strong cup of coffee...but I think your right. Let the body heal on its own and quit putting stuff in it. I'm gonna give it a go I do believe.

By the way the MAO the doc is giving me is a tincture of passiflora and hypericum, i think those are fancy words for st johns wart and passion flower.

How do you feel about the b vitamin shots? Should i quit that too?