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Neurotransmitters all messed up.

Nope I definitely dont think I ever had this, I dont think it could be sleep apnea because I usually sleep somewhat decent ( I get up about 2-3 x a night to piss , thats about it) and usually get about 8 hours of sleep.

Reason I asked is that people who had bacterial infections had their adrenals damages by the bleeding in kidneys due to bacteria.

Another thing I can think of is maybe diet? There is this leaky gut syndrome that effects adrenals in indirect way. Some people have deminished ability to absorb nutrients that are vital for NT syntethis.
 
Thant's a good one but make sure it is not coming from china!
 
I'm starting to think theres a good possibility its sleep apnea as I do more research on this topic. I commonly wake up 4-6 times through the night, so I don't think I ever get much REM sleep. I'll wake up and my throat will be clogged with mucus sometimes and I can hardly breathe till i go hock a loogy. I also have a really big tongue and very poor airflow through my nose, so bad in fact I've considered the surgery to open my nasal passages. I'll be lookin in to this. If i find anything out I'll post back. Thanks so much for all the ideas guys.
 
I had this same issue for many many years. I researched Charles Poliquin and he introduced me to Holy Basil and Betaine HCL. I noticed that my central nervous system was always whacked out, I always had a small shake to me. After tons of research I came across Poliquin's writings about Betaine HCL and how it will help with magnesium absorption. Sure enough, I took 500mg of Magnesium and 1 Betaine hcl with pepsin and fell asleep like a baby and never slept better in my life!

I trade the frankfurt and london Forex and commodities (2am local time to 6am EST) and my sleeping patterns during the week get really messed up. By Wednesday I usually wake up in the evening feeling like someone shook me all day. My neurotransmitters get all out of whack. My head is spinning, my ears are ringing, I feel like utter crap. I anticipate this now and take Holy Basil as soon as I wake up and within an hour I feel normal.

I thought I'd also mention that I basically abused MDMA (Ecstacy) for the better part of 2 years and this exasperated the problems, blowing out my seratonin levels and my brain chemistry. So, needless to say, I was pretty friggin messed up, now I have never felt better in my life. (Sorry for going on this is your thread, I'm not trying to hijack just sharing my experiences with you)


**broken link removed**

Definitely give Holy Basil a try and lemme know how that goes for you bro. Best of luck with it and Happy Holidays!
 
Reason I asked is that people who had bacterial infections had their adrenals damages by the bleeding in kidneys due to bacteria.

Another thing I can think of is maybe diet? There is this leaky gut syndrome that effects adrenals in indirect way. Some people have deminished ability to absorb nutrients that are vital for NT syntethis.

Honestly I dont think so , iv tried eating the whole "paleo", eating typical bodybuilding food, eating low carb high carb, all diff types and its always there. Im really not sure if it's the same thing as the OP has but like iv said before, mine pretty much causes me to moap around all day and not be full or have a good amount of energy, it just randomly pops up , if a certain even happens that excites me it will go away most of the time. Other then that each movement I do is like it takes all the energy out of me and I try to avoid doing the task at any cause! Even simple things like walking around at work making sure everythings alright on the sales floor. I live and practice a healthy lifestyle so I don't get how I got this shit. I might try taking DHEA and see if it does anything but I honestly doubt it will but maybe ill give it a shot. Any other suggestions/ questions ?
 
Honestly I dont think so , iv tried eating the whole "paleo", eating typical bodybuilding food, eating low carb high carb, all diff types and its always there. Im really not sure if it's the same thing as the OP has but like iv said before, mine pretty much causes me to moap around all day and not be full or have a good amount of energy, it just randomly pops up , if a certain even happens that excites me it will go away most of the time. Other then that each movement I do is like it takes all the energy out of me and I try to avoid doing the task at any cause! Even simple things like walking around at work making sure everythings alright on the sales floor. I live and practice a healthy lifestyle so I don't get how I got this shit. I might try taking DHEA and see if it does anything but I honestly doubt it will but maybe ill give it a shot. Any other suggestions/ questions ?

My only suggestion is to not give up. Keep researching and seeing different doctors until you get to the bottom of it. You're still young with plenty of years left that should be full of energy. If you don't have insurance that could be tough, but stay hopeful and keep looking. Thats what im doing.
 
I had this same issue for many many years. I researched Charles Poliquin and he introduced me to Holy Basil and Betaine HCL. I noticed that my central nervous system was always whacked out, I always had a small shake to me. After tons of research I came across Poliquin's writings about Betaine HCL and how it will help with magnesium absorption. Sure enough, I took 500mg of Magnesium and 1 Betaine hcl with pepsin and fell asleep like a baby and never slept better in my life!

I trade the frankfurt and london Forex and commodities (2am local time to 6am EST) and my sleeping patterns during the week get really messed up. By Wednesday I usually wake up in the evening feeling like someone shook me all day. My neurotransmitters get all out of whack. My head is spinning, my ears are ringing, I feel like utter crap. I anticipate this now and take Holy Basil as soon as I wake up and within an hour I feel normal.

I thought I'd also mention that I basically abused MDMA (Ecstacy) for the better part of 2 years and this exasperated the problems, blowing out my seratonin levels and my brain chemistry. So, needless to say, I was pretty friggin messed up, now I have never felt better in my life. (Sorry for going on this is your thread, I'm not trying to hijack just sharing my experiences with you)


**broken link removed**

Definitely give Holy Basil a try and lemme know how that goes for you bro. Best of luck with it and Happy Holidays!


Thank you very much for your reply. I don't mind you sharing your experiences, thats what this is all about, learning from others. I actually went straight to the 24 hour health store and bought the things your talking about. I'm gonna give em a whirl for about a week and see whatsup. After reading up on the holy basil and betain hcl I've got some high hopes about it. I had no idea how essential the betaine could be. I'll keep y'all posted.
 
I take magnesium Malate. What does holy basil do?

Also higher dose Carlson fish oil is all around healthy, I use the lemon liquid to make it more affordable.
I take Now NAC and green tea from TN and milk thistle. TN also has bataine cheap.
I found having like 3 drinks was throwing off my neurons for days and I was having like horrible GABA rebound.
I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread. You might want to check out alcar or injectable L-car.
Don't stress out about trying to
Find the root cause too much, try to go about life and things should correct them selves overtime with healthy living.
Also melatonin at night to regulate your rhythm.
You might want to look in to pregnenelone or HCG, I think I saw your thread on the all things male forum.
I have been to see both Crisler an Mariano.
 
Stewie is the guy I ask all my questions so hes yhe man yo talk to .
But if I were you I would stop taking any hormone related supps.
I would eat some healthy cholesterol, take lots of fish oil, magnesium Malate, grams of C, Now NAC, Alcar, 2000 vitiaminD. Betaine and whey protein.

And just focus on school, sleep, melatonin, and excersise. Then get bloods done in 2 months.
Weight training helps gets your hormones pumping again.
This is gonna be an unpopular statement but Adderal helped me big time at a small dose along with lexapro to blunt the backround irritation.
Sorry for double post but I'm on my phone and at work.
 
Stewie is the guy I ask all my questions so hes yhe man yo talk to .
But if I were you I would stop taking any hormone related supps.
I would eat some healthy cholesterol, take lots of fish oil, magnesium Malate, grams of C, Now NAC, Alcar, 2000 vitiaminD. Betaine and whey protein.

And just focus on school, sleep, melatonin, and excersise. Then get bloods done in 2 months.
Weight training helps gets your hormones pumping again.
This is gonna be an unpopular statement but Adderal helped me big time at a small dose along with lexapro to blunt the backround irritation.
Sorry for double post but I'm on my phone and at work.

I really appreciate the posts and time you took to respond. I've been taking most of the supplements your talking about, except for the pharms. Gonna try to keep pushing myself in the gym and get blood work done again in a couple of months. I'm probably going to do a sleep study pretty soon also to rule out sleep apnea.
 
I'm starting to think theres a good possibility its sleep apnea as I do more research on this topic. I commonly wake up 4-6 times through the night, so I don't think I ever get much REM sleep. I'll wake up and my throat will be clogged with mucus sometimes and I can hardly breathe till i go hock a loogy. I also have a really big tongue and very poor airflow through my nose, so bad in fact I've considered the surgery to open my nasal passages. I'll be lookin in to this. If i find anything out I'll post back. Thanks so much for all the ideas guys.

Check for food allergies as well as GERD, do you have acid reflux and sinus congestion?

Definitely look into a sleep study, a very keen physician can point out certain tell-tell signs of OSA on one's blood work, that would suggest OSA may be of concern. Some physicians tend too overlook this in nonobese physically fit patients.

Again IMO, I wouldn't over analyze the possibilities of skewed neurotransmitters,you ran a cycle, all over our Endogenous hormones are intertwined,so the are skewed.

TT made some very good points!
 
Check for food allergies as well as GERD, do you have acid reflux and sinus congestion?

Definitely look into a sleep study, a very keen physician can point out certain tell-tell signs of OSA on one's blood work, that would suggest OSA may be of concern. Some physicians tend too overlook this in nonobese physically fit patients.

Again IMO, I wouldn't over analyze the possibilities of skewed neurotransmitters,you ran a cycle, all over our Endogenous hormones are intertwined,so the are skewed.

TT made some very good points!

Thanks for the post. I haven't looked in to GERD, but I started taking betaine hcl which is supposed to help with any type of GERD. I do have sinus congestion, always have, I can't breathe for shit through my nose, and its always been that way. I never get acid reflux tho. I didn't have GERD before my cycles, so it's possible I gave it to myself? I'll admit my shits aren't as solid as they used to be, but I've been attributing that to my doc treating me for candida, for which I took a two week course of nystatin. That was only a month ago, he says I need to take a bunch of probiotics and i'll be back to normal. The loose stools actually begtan when I started using Optimum Nutrition Natural Whey. Gave me water shit. It's been getting better since I stopped using it, but not back to normal.

Investigating OSA will be my next direction. Im going to take the betaine hcl and holy basil for about a week to see if I notice any improvements. If not, I'm gonna see the doc again and look in to the OSA.

Thanks a ton to everyone for all the help. :D
 
Last edited:
Hopefully this sheds some light on some of your questions.

Measuring Neurotransmitters? - Definitive Mind - Forum

Measuring Neurotransmitters?

Dr. Mariano,

Are there any accurate tests to measure neurotransmitters? Do you ever do this? Something like the Organix Comprehensive Profile - Urine by Metametrix (measures metabolites)? Any thoughts? thanks

Yesterday, 07:46 AM #2

DrMariano Physician, Psychiatrist

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Carmel, California Posts: 694

Re: Measuring Neurotransmitters?

Quote:

Originally Posted by j-man1 Dr. Mariano,

Are there any accurate tests to measure neurotransmitters? Do you ever do this? Something like the Organix Comprehensive Profile -Urine by Metametrix (measures metabolites)? Any thoughts? thanks

Nearly every lab test is "accurate". This means it measures the amount of something reliably.

But a lab test being "accurate" is not the same as being meaningful - or useful.

The actual question to ask of any lab test is "What does the result mean?" If what you are looking for and what the lab test means have very little in common, then the lab test is not very useful to do.

Neurotransmitters are signal molecules.

They are called neurotransmitters because they are often sent by cells of the nervous system to a specific neighboring cell or from a nerve cell to a specific body cell such as a muscle cell or an immune system cell. Neurotransmitters travel very short distances between cells - through a fluid junction called a synapse. Hormones and other signals travel longer distances. Note that neurotransmitters can also be hormones and vice versa. Dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, and serotonin are also hormones. They are all signal molecules. The only difference between whether or not they are neurotransmitters or hormones is the distance they travel to the target cell.

The signals we call Neurotransmitters when produced by nerves are also be produced by numerous other cells in the body. Generally, they are called hormones when made by these other cells since the signal can travel a longer distance than the next neighboring cell. Dopamine, for example, is also made by kidney cells. Serotonin is also made by intestinal cells.

When one measures neurotransmitters, one generally wants to gain an understanding of what is happening in the brain. For example, is there a deficit or excess that is contributing to dysfunctional behavior. But outside of direct extraction of brain fluids, one cannot get a direct measure of what is in the brain.

We have to more often rely on indirect measures such as the level of signal molecules in the blood, saliva, or urine. when using these measures, the problem is that of the lack of meaningfulness and usefulness of the results.

The most common urine neurotransmitters tested are: Dopamine, Epinephrine, GABA, Glutamate, Glycine, Histamine, Norepinephrine, and Phenethylamine (PEA). Metabolites can also be tested.

After having patients do urine neurotransmitter testing for a time, I realized that outside of Serotonin, there was very little correlation between the lab tests and behavior. As a psychiatrist, behavior is what I have the most interested when it comes to lab testing.

When looking more closely at the issue, I realized that what I was seeing in the urine test is generally production of these molecular signals from other parts of the body. And the results did not give one an idea of what was happening in the nervous system - the actual meaning and use desired. For example, dopamine is produced in the kidney, itself, to regulate sodium and water levels in the body. It causes the body to excrete sodium and water. Thus, the dopamine in the urine test may be primarily from the kidney. Since the level obtain often does not correlate what behavior, one can be led to the wrong conclusion if one relies on the urine test level to correlate with nervous system levels of the signals.

The urine neurotransmitter tests have been not meaningful or clinically useful for determining nervous system levels and behavior. They are also expensive. Patients have to pay for them out of pocket. Repeated testing adds to the cost. I stopped ordering urine neurotransmitter testing years ago.

When it comes to neurotransmitter level, blood norepinephrine level can correlate reliably with brain levels if there is adequate epinephrine. Serotonin can be tested with a blood test and urine metabolite test but gut function and nutrition has to be considered in the assessment. Blood dopamine level does not have much meaning - since much of it is leakage from norepinephrine-producing cells rather than representing nervous system production. __________________ Romeo B. Mariano, MD, physician, psychiatrist Any information provided on Definitive Mind is for informational purposes only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment, and will change as knowledge progresses. Seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet, exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

Today, 04:13 AM #3

compaq Resident

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 20

Re: Measuring Neurotransmitters?

What would a blood catecholamines test be able to tell someone that a patient could practically apply to their life? They need more tyrosine, 5htp, they drink too much coffee, something else...? Just kind of wondering about this as it seems a lot more vague of a test than something like DHEA-s or total testosterone.

Also, what kind of impact would it have on the test for people who go into a mild fight-or-flight mode when they get blood drawn? Is that worth consideration to what seems to be a sensitive test?

Today, 10:42 AM #4

DrMariano Physician, Psychiatrist

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Carmel, California Posts: 694

Re: Measuring Neurotransmitters?

Something is "vague" only to those who don't understand what it means.

It is the sum of the signals and effects on cellular metabolism that determines the behavioral change in the body. For example, libido is the summation of numerous signals - some turn it on, some turn it off. Testosterone is simply one of those signals. Its effects may be negated by more potent signals. Additionally, nearly every signal in the body has more than one action. Estrogen, alone, has more than 400 different effects. These signaling effects may trigger numerous other signaling cascades and circuits - a whole network of influences.

Signals such as DHEA and testosterone seem simple to understand. For example, testosterone is associated with libido and male secondary characteristics and muscle hypertrophy. Thus, it is "simple" to understand that if one is low on testosterone, one should increase the level. But it is not that simple. Testosterone affects multiple other signaling systems. If adding testosterone excessively reduces thyroid hormone production and shuts down adrenal cortex production of cortisol and other hormones, then a person may get worse with testosterone rather than better. If testosterone become excessive estradiol, then a person can get worse rather than get better. Simply adding testosterone simply because testosterone is low is not a clear decision. You have assess the ramifications of this intervention on other systems to see if the whole effect is positive. Adding testosterone to a hypogonadal person may even lower libido rather than improve things. One can get the opposite of the intended effect even if it is indicated if the foundation for its addition is not made.

Similarly, for DHEA: if the blood level is low should one add DHEA? The answer is not simple. DHEA can become either testosterone or one of several estrogens. Testosterone may have a beneficial effect or negative effect. Estrogens may have a beneficial effect or negative effect. Low DHEA may also be the outcome of a response to excessive stress resulting in reduction in DHEA production. Thus low DHEA wouldn't necessarily be treated by adding more DHEA. Rather, addressing the stress response in the nervous system would be the more important intervention. DHEA may be low due to advanced age. Perhaps it may be useful to add DHEA, then. But then, some people may benefit (a little) and some people may worsen depending on the cascade of changes that DHEA may set into motion. Sometimes the effects may cancel each other out and nothing improves. Additionally, the brain, itself, makes its own DHEA from cholesterol that it makes itself. Would adding DHEA upset the balance of DHEA in the brain or would it cause a beneficial change? Thus, adding DHEA simply because the blood level is low is not a simple decision to make.

Measuring norepinephrine level and being able to correlate it to nervous system level is highly useful.

Norepinephrine:
1. is the primary signal for stress. When one is stressed, one is producing excessive norepinephrine.
2. triggers the emotion of fear/anxiety and the associated physical changes such as tremor, sweating, flush, etc.
3. triggers the emotion of anger/irritability and the associated physical changes, and behavioral problems such as aggression
4. contributes to excitement, elevated mood, alertness (as part of attention)
5. triggers orgasms - when too high, one can get premature ejaculation.
6. keeps us awake - when in excess, contributes to insomnia
7. causes hot flashes
8. stimulates body heat production
9. triggers processes increasing energy production
10. activates the immune system - in excess increases inflammatory signaling
11. increases insulin resistance - in excess contributes to diabetes.
12. increases blood pressure - in excess causes hypertension, stroke, heart attacks, kidney failure, blindness, etc.
13. increases heart rate
14. dilates the lung passages to allow increased oxygenation
15. increases frequency of breathing
16. triggers the flight/fight response
17. increases production of the enzymes that activate thyroid hormone
18. changes dopamine, serotonin, GABA production
19. increases angiotensin and aldosterone signaling
20. increase urinary urgency and frequency of urination.
21. dilates the pupils - in excess can cause blurred vision which is uncorrectable.
22. can contribute to obsessive-compulsive behavior, to paranoid thinking, to hallucinations, hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysregulation, sexual dysfunction, bipolar disorder, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc., etc.
23. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Obviously, knowing where norepinephrine is can be useful in helping determine why a person is having problems and thus developing a treatment to target the underlying causes of those problems.

Interestingly, most psychiatric medications for the mood disorders, anxiety and psychosis reduces norepinephrine signaling as arguably their primary effect (either directly or indirectly - such as through the GABA or dopamine or serotonin systems).

If a person has a "flight or fight" reaction from the blood test for cathecholamines, that just adds more evidence that that person has a problem with excess norepinephrine signaling or difficulty in the patient's other systems in controlling norepinephrine signaling within the nervous system. A blood test is not a flight or fight event. The reaction is excessive and telling. It is analogous to having a patient with good blood pressure in the doctor's office or at home, but high blood pressure at work or other stressful setting. This high blood pressure under stressful conditions is also a potentially dangerous condition that needs to be addressed in treatment. Finding it is a bonus.

Note that not everyone can pay for a plasma catecholamine test nor have it covered by insurance nor is it always available. Additionally, it adds additional blood to the already large amount drawn for an initial lab test. If a person is very young, small bodied, elderly, I wouldn't want to cause significant discomfort from lab testing. Thus, if there is sufficient information from the history and physical exam to establish a probable level of norepinephrine signaling (e.g. high, low, middle), then I will skip this test in favor of more important ones to do first. I would reconsider it if the patient proves inadequately responsive to the initial treatments.

For example, one patient with long-term depression had significant fatigue despite improving thyroid signaling, nutrition, addressing immune system factors and nervous system and psychological factors with various psychiatric medications. Her catecholamine test showed fairly low body norepinephrine levels. Adding a long-acting stimulant was the one intervention allowed her to get out of the house, exercise in the gym, and become a much more productive individual, when previously she was house-bound for years. Initially, I would not thought of using a stimulant since she had signs of having high central nervous system norepinephrine signaling. Why add fuel to a fire? The catecholamine test was very useful in determine the treatment for her that allowed her to become functional. __________________ Romeo B. Mariano, MD, physician, psychiatrist Any information provided on Definitive Mind is for informational purposes only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment, and will change as knowledge progresses. Seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet, exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program
 
Last edited:
I would be great if humanofort possible helped fixed your adrenals after using it for a month or so.
 
I would be great if humanofort possible helped fixed your adrenals after using it for a month or so.

It would one of the best chose, and it would give him fantastic results.
 
I take magnesium Malate. What does holy basil do?

Also higher dose Carlson fish oil is all around healthy, I use the lemon liquid to make it more affordable.
I take Now NAC and green tea from TN and milk thistle. TN also has bataine cheap.
I found having like 3 drinks was throwing off my neurons for days and I was having like horrible GABA rebound.
I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread. You might want to check out alcar or injectable L-car.
Don't stress out about trying to
Find the root cause too much, try to go about life and things should correct them selves overtime with healthy living.
Also melatonin at night to regulate your rhythm.
You might want to look in to pregnenelone or HCG, I think I saw your thread on the all things male forum.
I have been to see both Crisler an Mariano.

**broken link removed**

I noticed exactly what Charles was talking about in this blog for about the first 5 days. I took it and man my ears were ringing, my brain felt like it had spark plugs in it firing 24/7. It was bad. After those 5 days I felt like I had been going through life with 2 bad cyclinders. So, if you're gonna try it definitely keep this in mind and start the regime on your day off so it doesn't affect your money/business.

If you have some GABA I would take 2grams of that in the evening also to help out with restoring your neurotransmitters.
 
Thanks a lot to everyone for the helpful posts. Things seem to be getting worse for me. I'm getting diarrhea now that won't seem to go away. It's either been watery or like soft serve ice cream for like 3 weeks. Doc said it would get better with some probiotics but its not. Gonna go see a different doc real soon and get some real info. I'll continue to keep this topic up to date with any findings I get.
 
Hey fellas I told y'all I'd try to keep this updated with anything I discover, and what I discovered recently is that Cordyceps helps me feel better. I've only been taking it about a week and I'm getting more clear headed and have more energy. I'm sleeping better, waking up earlier and in better moods. I'm also taking a chinese tincture of schisandra, look it up its awesome, and I think these two things together are helping me get back on track. So anyone else experiencing what I have, give this stuff a try. I'm not 100% yet but Im on the right track!
 
Poliquin also suggest Inositol pre-bed to balance out neurotransmitters, i'd also be supplementing with a probiotic or atleast eating Kefir. Their is a link between gut health and neurotransmitters, google it ;)
 
mdma or molly

I have used it in the past clubbing, but my honey has not: is there such site where I can get real mdma or molly????
 

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