Overtraining even while on AAS

[maldorf]

Ive been bodybuilding now for a little over 20 yrs, and still learning. Somehow I managed to overtrain myself during this cycle I am doing now, and realized my error late last week. Starting on monday I cut back my volume of sets considerable and yet maintained the intensity on the sets that I did do. I did not take any extra days rest. I weighed myself 2 days ago and I was 251 lbs at 6 foot tall. I just weighed myself tonight after cutting back on the training this week and I weighed in at 258 tonight, just 2 days later. Only thing about diet I changed was I added in about 200 grams of carbs, so about 800 calories. I did start some test base in oil on monday, but hadnt put on any wieght during that first 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly how much of the weight gain was due to cutting back on the training, but some had to be from that I would think.
Just thought I would relate to others how I managed to overtrain while on cycle, I get tired of hearing people say that you cant overtrain while youre on. Thats just not true.
I am wondering how some of you train while youre on, as far as volume of sets. I usually increase my volume only when I am doing lighter weights for reps of 10-12. When I am doing lighter weights I will average about 12-13 sets for large bodyparts and 9 sets on things like arms. For quads Ill usually do about 10 sets only. Doing this I was still overtraining. Perhaps it is my insistence of going to failure on each and every set.
For now it seems like I am getting stronger an bigger doing less as I heal up from my overtraining. Perhaps periodization is the key, and realizing when to shift gears.

 

[JETHRO TULL]

I am exactly the same.

Ive been bodybuilding now for a little over 20 yrs, and still learning. Somehow I managed to overtrain myself during this cycle I am doing now, and realized my error late last week. Starting on monday I cut back my volume of sets considerable and yet maintained the intensity on the sets that I did do. I did not take any extra days rest. I weighed myself 2 days ago and I was 251 lbs at 6 foot tall. I just weighed myself tonight after cutting back on the training this week and I weighed in at 258 tonight, just 2 days later. Only thing about diet I changed was I added in about 200 grams of carbs, so about 800 calories. I did start some test base in oil on monday, but hadnt put on any wieght during that first 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly how much of the weight gain was due to cutting back on the training, but some had to be from that I would think.
Just thought I would relate to others how I managed to overtrain while on cycle, I get tired of hearing people say that you cant overtrain while youre on. Thats just not true.
I am wondering how some of you train while youre on, as far as volume of sets. I usually increase my volume only when I am doing lighter weights for reps of 10-12. When I am doing lighter weights I will average about 12-13 sets for large bodyparts and 9 sets on things like arms. For quads Ill usually do about 10 sets only. Doing this I was still overtraining. Perhaps it is my insistence of going to failure on each and every set.
For now it seems like I am getting stronger an bigger doing less as I heal up from my overtraining. Perhaps periodization is the key, and realizing when to shift gears.

Even when I am on SUPPLEMENTS, I can overtrain easily. I know this to be the truth. I start staying sore, the weights don't increase, I feel tired all the time and the dead give away for me is a sore throat.

Not everyone is the same, but I ABSOLUTELY can overtrain even if I were enhanced.

 

[Putin]

Ive been bodybuilding now for a little over 20 yrs, and still learning. Somehow I managed to overtrain myself during this cycle I am doing now, and realized my error late last week. Starting on monday I cut back my volume of sets considerable and yet maintained the intensity on the sets that I did do. I did not take any extra days rest. I weighed myself 2 days ago and I was 251 lbs at 6 foot tall. I just weighed myself tonight after cutting back on the training this week and I weighed in at 258 tonight, just 2 days later. Only thing about diet I changed was I added in about 200 grams of carbs, so about 800 calories. I did start some test base in oil on monday, but hadnt put on any wieght during that first 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly how much of the weight gain was due to cutting back on the training, but some had to be from that I would think.
Just thought I would relate to others how I managed to overtrain while on cycle, I get tired of hearing people say that you cant overtrain while youre on. Thats just not true.
I am wondering how some of you train while youre on, as far as volume of sets. I usually increase my volume only when I am doing lighter weights for reps of 10-12. When I am doing lighter weights I will average about 12-13 sets for large bodyparts and 9 sets on things like arms. For quads Ill usually do about 10 sets only. Doing this I was still overtraining. Perhaps it is my insistence of going to failure on each and every set.
For now it seems like I am getting stronger an bigger doing less as I heal up from my overtraining. Perhaps periodization is the key, and realizing when to shift gears.

1. 200 g of carbs can make a difference, carbs pull in water into the cells. 2. What exactely do you mean by "you overtrained".
3. 8lbs fluctuation for your body weight is not out of the ordinary.
Just dont think for one second that that was all muscle you gained

I dont think I've ever experienced the so called "whole body" overtraining. I've experienced "specific muscle" overtraining which has very distinctive side effect, loss of strength, painful soreness that lasts for 2 months (even on gear), and it creeps up on you. Front delts, rear delts, biceps, even abs. Been there done that.

 

[maldorf]

1. 200 g of carbs can make a difference, carbs pull in water into the cells. 2. What exactely do you mean by "you overtrained".
3. 8lbs fluctuation for your body weight is not out of the ordinary.
Just dont think for one second that that was all muscle you gained

I dont think I've ever experienced the so called "whole body" overtraining. I've experienced "specific muscle" overtraining which has very distinctive side effect, loss of strength, painful soreness that lasts for 2 months (even on gear), and it creeps up on you. Front delts, rear delts, biceps, even abs. Been there done that.

Ive experienced both types of overtraining. These days I am smart enough to avoid the whole body thing, just get the painful muscles in certain areas.very frustrating when you are quite aware that it can happen and you try your best not to, but it still happens.
For me 2 lbs is a normal weight flucuation, but 8 lbs is pretty high. It is obvious to me that its not all muscle, but some of that must be. Even if its just 1 lb, thats a lot to me. Think i am going to try to concentrate on trying to undertrain for awhile and see where that gets me.

 

[maldorf]

How about that debate of how much protein to take in. thats a good one that I havent figured out yet. For the past 5 weeks ive been taking in massive calories and protein and went from 230 lbs to 258 tonight. Been taking in a little over 700 g of protein now. So thats a bit more than 2.75 x my bodyweight. wondering if I wouldnt be better off lowering that to 2x my bodyweight and taking in more carbs in its place.

 

[oldfella]

How about that debate of how much protein to take in. thats a good one that I havent figured out yet. For the past 5 weeks ive been taking in massive calories and protein and went from 230 lbs to 258 tonight. Been taking in a little over 700 g of protein now. So thats a bit more than 2.75 x my bodyweight. wondering if I wouldnt be better off lowering that to 2x my bodyweight and taking in more carbs in its place.

IMO about 2-2.5gms per lb of BW sounds about right for an enhanced trainer, funny thing is for a natty the protein requirements are about the same. It is the increased synthesis brought on by AAS that allows us to utilize it better for quality gains. Yes up your carbs a bit and this will have a volumizing effect in the cells, esp the muscle. You will be bigger and fuller. The longer you can stay that way the body will adapt to the new size and stay that way pretty much. Again this is what I believe happens. I may be wrong but it seems to hold water.....pardon the pun! I have read that the body will only process (synthesize) about thirty grams of protein at any one time (feed). I do not know if this is true but I always try to hit 45gms of protein in each shake to take advantage of this. Seems to be working. I'm getting bigger and stronger.

 

[Lustral]

Ive experienced both types of overtraining. These days I am smart enough to avoid the whole body thing, just get the painful muscles in certain areas.very frustrating when you are quite aware that it can happen and you try your best not to, but it still happens.
For me 2 lbs is a normal weight flucuation, but 8 lbs is pretty high. It is obvious to me that its not all muscle, but some of that must be. Even if its just 1 lb, thats a lot to me. Think i am going to try to concentrate on trying to undertrain for awhile and see where that gets me.

If in doubt, train less! I always go for the minimum I can - haven't trained more than 4 days a week in over 2 years and rarely workout more than an hour. Normally keep it to one set to failure on each exercise too, though sometime ya get a couple to failure!

Gear helps with recovery but I have never seen the point in training more while on it - I made that miustake for the first 2 weeks of my first cycle. Well, after I hurt my shoulder in the first week I leanred my lesson. Even on 4 days per week I need to cool off periodically because of the toll on the nervous system of lifting over 500lbs in a few exercises every week - plus it's good to train lighter for those nagging joint pains we all get (like my tendon in my left arm right now!)

 

[full_belly]

dont wanna flog a dead horse as im sure other more experienced trainers will chime in, but wouldnt we all agree the overtraining symptoms we are discussing are related to Central nervous system fatigue??? gear dont help that. hence the dicision to avoid two training days in a row, not to rest the body, as much as the CNS. i grow off standard sets and reps as most here do. but i also respond as well to ONE restpauise set per bodypart every 5 days. only difference is i feel energised and not drawn when rest pausing. even so periodical weeks of lower vol or intensity is needed for myself and most" average" clients with families, stressful jobs etc.

Any one else wanna share their exp with fatigue and overtrainin????

 

[maldorf]

dont wanna flog a dead horse as im sure other more experienced trainers will chime in, but wouldnt we all agree the overtraining symptoms we are discussing are related to Central nervous system fatigue??? gear dont help that. hence the dicision to avoid two training days in a row, not to rest the body, as much as the CNS. i grow off standard sets and reps as most here do. but i also respond as well to ONE restpauise set per bodypart every 5 days. only difference is i feel energised and not drawn when rest pausing. even so periodical weeks of lower vol or intensity is needed for myself and most" average" clients with families, stressful jobs etc.

Any one else wanna share their exp with fatigue and overtrainin????

The CNS overtraining you speak of to me is what we were calling whole body overtraining. Im able to avoid that now usually, its the overtraining of certain areas that is killing me. Right now Im having trouble with overtraining shoulders and lower back. Im walking around much of the day with that terrible lower back pump pain, and shoulders feel like shit when I go to do over the head presses. Today my shoulders are feeling better already,but the back is still feeling fatigued. Ive been doing deadlifts just once every 12 days or so, but still managed to get myself into this trouble.
Joint pain has also been haunting me. Mostly the knees, and petellar tendonitis. Using preexhaust by doing leg extensions before my squats has helped quite a bit for this. Forces you to drop your squats by 30-40 lbs, and tend to feel it more in the quads.

Im like you, I like doing the restpause sets. One per exercise is what I was doing, and I think this may have been too much too soon. I was just coming back from triple hernia surgery and hadnt workedout hard in over 1 month. Its hard to contain enthusiasm when youre back in the gym after a long lay off. I did do pretty good though, taking my bodyweight from 230 to 258 lbs in 5 weeks.

 

[full_belly]

wow 28lbs in 5 weeks!!!

man i am impressed. thats big weight increase.

remember the glute/ opposite lat junction(thoraco-lumber) is probly the biggest lower back stabilizer, try some glute / sling system innervation techniques, do you think the pump could be over workin erectors esp if you row big, curl big etc. or it could be gear pump??? dbol does that to me.

maybe try straight sets for delts, drop the rest pause???

are your delts and arms more developed than back/chest??? perhaps you use them alot in chest back trainin???

perhaps you dont even need shoulder pressin if you hit the chest as hard as you speak of, maybe just do a side delt straight set???

 

[Putin]

How about that debate of how much protein to take in. thats a good one that I havent figured out yet. For the past 5 weeks ive been taking in massive calories and protein and went from 230 lbs to 258 tonight. Been taking in a little over 700 g of protein now. So thats a bit more than 2.75 x my bodyweight. wondering if I wouldnt be better off lowering that to 2x my bodyweight and taking in more carbs in its place.

So you're taking in about 464lbs of pure protein per year. How much muscle did you gain in that year?? See where I'm going with this?!

 

[km2000]

IMO about 2-2.5gms per lb of BW sounds about right for an enhanced trainer, funny thing is for a natty the protein requirements are about the same. It is the increased synthesis brought on by AAS that allows us to utilize it better for quality gains. Yes up your carbs a bit and this will have a volumizing effect in the cells, esp the muscle. You will be bigger and fuller. The longer you can stay that way the body will adapt to the new size and stay that way pretty much. Again this is what I believe happens. I may be wrong but it seems to hold water.....pardon the pun! I have read that the body will only process (synthesize) about thirty grams of protein at any one time (feed). I do not know if this is true but I always try to hit 45gms of protein in each shake to take advantage of this. Seems to be working. I'm getting bigger and stronger.

i have never understood why people take in the same amount of protien when there on as when their off or natural. when on the protein synth. is increased so extra protei in the diet would make sense. when off the protien is not synth. at the same rate meaning you are not going to be using as much, no matter how much you put down the hatch...

a normal person can process 30 g's at a stitting, an athlete or an enhanced athlete would probably be double, it would also depend on your bodyweight...

 

[Moen]

What km meant to say: dont put kerosine in a gasoline engine !

 

[km2000]

overtraining = cns being taxed, that is what overtraining is...

you should not be sore for days at a time, if you are it is a sign of DOMS an taxing the cns... everybody is different though, some can handle extremly high workloads and stress on the body without overtraining (ronnie coleman)., but they are few and far between, chances are you do not fit in this catagory... all that is needed is a stimulis to grow, you dont have to kill yourself in the gym time after time to grow. most people make the mistake of thinking they need to go heavier and more sets to keep their body stimulating muscle growth, you dont! you can change freq. intensity, volume just to name a few. try doing sets of 20 reps with a moderate weight, doing this from a normal 8-12 rep range would be sufficient to stimulate new growth(your body's not used to it, it will have to adapt) Doing explosive positive portion of the reps with lets say bench press with 50% of the normal weight on the bar is another good way to change it up in a workout. rest pause, giant sets, super sets, i could go on for pages. all of these are new ways to stimulate without killing yourself and overtaxing the cns...

bottom line is you need to kow your body and what it can handle, ever wonder why milos has such great sucess with his athletes he works with? he understands this, and incorperates it extremly efficiently. read some of the articles of the pros that train with him for a few weeks and what they have to say, usually it is something to the effect of " i didnt kow i could puke squating 225" he is a big advocate of the giant sets and some other training techniques i mentioned... he workes the athletes hard but not heavy ass push all the weight you can workouts....

i think most are too scared to experiment though, they are looking to go in the gym and push the same weight if not more every chest day, or are looking to achieve the "pump" as a signal of a good workout (dont get me started on this one)

 

[km2000]

What km meant to say: dont put kerosine in a gasoline engine !

exactly, guess i could have used a few less words huh....

 

[KillerStack]

dont wanna flog a dead horse as im sure other more experienced trainers will chime in, but wouldnt we all agree the overtraining symptoms we are discussing are related to Central nervous system fatigue??? gear dont help that.

I think gear helps the CNS recover.

 

[KillerStack]

The CNS overtraining you speak of to me is what we were calling whole body overtraining. Im able to avoid that now usually, its the overtraining of certain areas that is killing me. Right now Im having trouble with overtraining shoulders and lower back. Im walking around much of the day with that terrible lower back pump pain, and shoulders feel like shit when I go to do over the head presses. Today my shoulders are feeling better already,but the back is still feeling fatigued. Ive been doing deadlifts just once every 12 days or so, but still managed to get myself into this trouble.
Joint pain has also been haunting me. Mostly the knees, and petellar tendonitis. Using preexhaust by doing leg extensions before my squats has helped quite a bit for this. Forces you to drop your squats by 30-40 lbs, and tend to feel it more in the quads.

Im like you, I like doing the restpause sets. One per exercise is what I was doing, and I think this may have been too much too soon. I was just coming back from triple hernia surgery and hadnt workedout hard in over 1 month. Its hard to contain enthusiasm when youre back in the gym after a long lay off. I did do pretty good though, taking my bodyweight from 230 to 258 lbs in 5 weeks.

I have read about how loading the spine is very taxing on the CNS, for some reason. Maybe lay off exercises that load the spine when you are feeling fatigued and overtrained. Maybe substitute squats for legpresses, heavy overhead presses for laterals, and so on, until you feel recovered.

Edit: you feel overtrained in certain bodyparts only so this is just a general comment.

 

[debo22]

bro i was doing the same thing. too much volume, to lite weight; started to actually lose weight. started adding more carbs, training EOD king kong heavy and blew up 7 pounds in one week on lower doses than i was taking previously. look much, much fuller. i am starting to really believe in the EOD training. if you do it you have to murder yourself in the gym and eat big on off days.

still learning and trying to break in to the 240's at 6'1" 34 inch waist. currently 236 34 inch waist.

 

[RazorCuts]

This is the exact reason i came up with Ultimate Hypertrophy Training. To many people over training no matter if they were on or off. This is the perfect meduim to obtain all the growth needed. Lower volume higher frequency will build more muscle over time. The right movements need to be choosen also to recruit the most muscle fibers these include compound and stretch overload iso's. Once you get the pefect balance high volume endurence workouts will be a thing of the past.

 

[maldorf]

man i am impressed. thats big weight increase.

remember the glute/ opposite lat junction(thoraco-lumber) is probly the biggest lower back stabilizer, try some glute / sling system innervation techniques, do you think the pump could be over workin erectors esp if you row big, curl big etc. or it could be gear pump??? dbol does that to me.

maybe try straight sets for delts, drop the rest pause???

are your delts and arms more developed than back/chest??? perhaps you use them alot in chest back trainin???

perhaps you dont even need shoulder pressin if you hit the chest as hard as you speak of, maybe just do a side delt straight set???

I think my erectors in my lower back got overtaxed with the heavy squats, deads, bentover rows that I do. Going to have to bypass the bentover rows this week I think and do some machine work instead. I usually workout with 285 lbs for 10 reps on bentover rows, so that is pretty rough.
I think my delts do get a lot of work doing chest, especially the anterior. My posterior delts seems to get hard doing the rowing movements. This week all I did was 3 sets of machine presses and 3 sets of dumbell side lats. Will see how they feel the next workout.