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Questions for you push/pull/leg split guys

Landmonster

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Hi guys

So I know a popular Trend here is that guys split their bodies into three workouts, which would be Push Pull and legs.

my question for you guys is how do you arrange the push days? Pushing seems like honestly it's the hardest day because it involves chest pressing, shoulder pressing, and tricep pressing.

For example, every time I have tried to do a really heavy push day, either the triceps or the shoulders end up suffering in the amount of weight that I can lift. For example if I do incline press, then bench press... I have never been able to put up an impressive military press or shoulder press as a 3rd exercise. And then as I continue on to do dips and tricep work, they are also more fatigued than if I were to do them fresh on their own day

so I guess my question is, how do you manage fatigue between all your heavy lifts from pressing chest, shoulders, and triceps in the same workout? And do you find this more advantageous then training each of those muscles separately on their own day with maximum intensity, where you would be able to lift heavier weights.... albeit less frequently?
 

Landmonster

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However, let me pose an addendum to this question. we all know that even in a standard chest workout, for example, thatt whatever lifts you do first will be able to be the heaviest and strongest.

For example, if I do incline press first followed by bench press, my bench press will always be weaker than if I had done bench press first followed by incline press second.

So even among the One body-part A Day type workouts, I would find myself rotating which exercises that I do first

Is this still advisable on a push pull legs type of split? Where on your push days perhaps one day you would start with a bench press, one day you might start with an incline press, and one day you might start with a military press or something else?
 

Landmonster

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I would love to see input to this question from Jordan Peters, or any of his followers who run his programs
 

OutToLunch

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Consider front back legs?

Front. Chest shoulders biceps
Back , back triceps back of shoulders / traps
 

juggy38

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Muscles don’t know care how much weight is on the bar or PRs. Growth is from totall fatigue and muscular trauma.

So even though your skull crushers fail at 9 reps with 25lbs plates on the EZ bar instead of 35lbs at 9 reps if you were to go then fresh, you still took 9 reps to total failure.

And you can also prioritize. One day do chest/shoulder/tris, next push day do shoulders/chest/tris. Also overlap bud.

Barbell Incline bench (chest/anterior delt)
Peck deck (chest)
Slightly Bent Shoulder laterals (medial/posterior)
Dips (tricep/chest)
Skulls (triceps)

Next day you could

Overhead press
Rear delts fly
Flat Dumbbell bench
Cable chest
Rope pressdowns

Also I like push/legs/pull off better. If I hammer my shoulders on push day, my pull day suffers on upper back work, but that’s just me.
 

Dens228

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Like Juggy said, the muscle doesn't care how it's brought to failure.
I think it's no different than a pre-exhaust. If my delts are tired from working chest and I only need X pounds to work the delts, well it's still to failure.
 

Elvia1023

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I train quite frequently so on such a split I may have 2 push days within 3-5 days. One simple thing I do is simply rotate shoulder press on/off. That way I can chest press very heavy and for shoulders I mainly concentrate on various forms of lateral/front raises. Sometimes I may even add in a variation of shoulder press on the off day but just a lighter weight high rep pressing movement. I like standing barbell (or seated machine) presses to the front and back and I will keep the weight to 1 plate a side and do lot's of slow reps.

The other thing you could do when training chest then shoulders is what I done during my last push day. Basically finish chest with a heavy high incline press so you are hitting both chest and shoulders. That is a good way to go into your shoulder training. Then I will just to various lateral/front raises.

Implementing ways of improving recovery would be something else I recommend so you are able to push it more each session. Not sure if you have intra shakes but the right ingredients can go a long way in regards to muscle endurance and recovery.
 
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Landmonster

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Like Juggy said, the muscle doesn't care how it's brought to failure.
I think it's no different than a pre-exhaust. If my delts are tired from working chest and I only need X pounds to work the delts, well it's still to failure.

Lets examine that assumption little bit closer though.

Do we know if thats true? I have always operated under the idea that the opposite is true. Otherwise we would simply pre exhaust everything

If you normally military press 275 for 10... but after doing bench and incline, you get 225 x 10... you've just lost 50lbs of stimulation in that one exercise.

You presume the preceding work on chest that fatigued your delts is equivalent to just military pressing 275...... but it may not be. Its likely that your triceps and front delts are fatigued which is weakening your military press, which actually takes away some from full delt stimulus

Just playing the devils advocate. Im not sure I'm wrong
 

Dens228

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Lets examine that assumption little bit closer though.

Do we know if thats true? I have always operated under the idea that the opposite is true. Otherwise we would simply pre exhaust everything

If you normally military press 275 for 10... but after doing bench and incline, you get 225 x 10... you've just lost 50lbs of stimulation in that one exercise.

You presume the preceding work on chest that fatigued your delts is equivalent to just military pressing 275...... but it may not be. Its likely that your triceps and front delts are fatigued which is weakening your military press, which actually takes away some from full delt stimulus

Just playing the devils advocate. Im not sure I'm wrong

Well then, you could do one body part per day, or you could do something like back and triceps, or chest and biceps........but the other side of the coin is you are working triceps a bit on chest day, biceps a bit on back day........are they getting enough rest if that happens.

So in theory there's a possible negative repercussion with any method so pick your poison, find out what works for you. I've actually done it both ways. I prefer the push-pull-legs as I tend to feel a little beat up sooner the other way around.

And as a low volume type of guy I don't like the one bodypart per workout thing.
 

Elvia1023

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Strength is not everything and you don't need to lift heavy weights to get big. However it's no secret that the biggest and thickest guys are pushing/pulling big weight. Therefore, I believe you should try to maximize strength using perfect form in all movements. I don't take the my body doesn't recognize it's 200 or 400 pounds. Fact is pushing as much weight as possible whilst staying in the correct form is going to make you progress more over time. When I press heavy weight I can feel/see the difference in my muscle.

Although to recruit all fibers and basically effectively train I believe in a mixture of weights in all movements and pre hausting is a good technique to use especially when training multiple body parts in one session. Overall when you shoulder press or lateral raise etc I would definitely try to go as heavy as possible for 8 and over reps at some point in the week. A lot of people are against heavy shoulder pressing but I love it. The same should still apply for other shoulder movements though.
 
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brutus69

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I train quite frequently so on such a split I may have 2 push days within 3-5 days. One simple thing I do is simply rotate shoulder press on/off. That way I can chest press very heavy and for shoulders I mainly concentrate on various forms of lateral/front raises. Sometimes I may even add in a variation of shoulder press on the off day but just a lighter weight high rep pressing movement. I like standing barbell (or seated machine) presses to the front and back and I will keep the weight to 1 plate a side and do lot's of slow reps.

The other thing you could do when training chest then shoulders is what I done during my last push day. Basically finish chest with a heavy high incline press so you are hitting both chest and shoulders. That is a good way to go into your shoulder training. Then I will just to various lateral/front raises.

Implementing ways of improving recovery would be something else I recommend so you are able to push it more each session. Not sure if you have intra shakes but the right ingredients can go a long way in regards to muscle endurance and recovery.

yeah. do flys for chest and presses for shoulders one day, next day presses for chest and isolation for shoulders.
me, i always do shoulders first cuz i like the popped out delts and my chest grows faster than shoulders. which, being narrow, looks stupid. big chest and narrow shoulders....no thanx.
u aint gonna suffer lack of growth going lighter either. 30-90 percent 1 rep max, anywhere inbetween is shown on meta-analysis to be equally as effective.
 

Landmonster

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I have been doing each body part about once a week since 2014. I've been hammering with high volume and going to exhaustion. It feels really relativley simple and hard to screw up.... in that, you cab murder a body part without mercy, and it will be fully recovered in 7 days.
That was kind of Dorians approach.

However, there is a ceiling to that approach too.... in that, there's only so much intensity you can summon, and theres only so much volume you can do for a muscle in a given workout.

Im wondering if there is a more optimal approach that uses higher frequencies... so i have been experimenting with push/pull/legs
 

Dens228

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I have been doing each body part about once a week since 2014. I've been hammering with high volume and going to exhaustion. It feels really relativley simple and hard to screw up.... in that, you cab murder a body part without mercy, and it will be fully recovered in 7 days.
That was kind of Dorians approach.

However, there is a ceiling to that approach too.... in that, there's only so much intensity you can summon, and theres only so much volume you can do for a muscle in a given workout.

Im wondering if there is a more optimal approach that uses higher frequencies... so i have been experimenting with push/pull/legs

I actually alternate between DC and Yates. I pretty much base when to rotate systems on nothing other than I feel like it....lol
 

mujeriego

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Overthinking it. Like others said, your muscle doesn’t know how much it is lifting to the exact pound. The reason you see bigger thicker guys lifting as heavy as they do is because they progressively overloaded over time up to that weight. Follow the same principle and progressively overload to heavier weights despite that fatigue that comes from other pushing movements earlier. Simple
 

jeroendebleser

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Strength is not everything and you don't need to lift heavy weights to get big. However it's no secret that the biggest and thickest guys are pushing/pulling big weight. Therefore, I believe you should try to maximize strength using perfect form in all movements. I don't take the my body doesn't recognize it's 200 or 400 pounds. Fact is pushing as much weight as possible whilst staying in the correct form is going to make you progress more over time. When I press heavy weight I can feel/see the difference in my muscle.

Although to recruit all fibers and basically effectively train I believe in a mixture of weights in all movements and pre hausting is a good technique to use especially when training multiple body parts in one session. Overall when you shoulder press or lateral raise etc I would definitely try to go as heavy as possible for 8 and over reps at some point in the week. A lot of people are against heavy shoulder pressing but I love it. The same should still apply for other shoulder movements though.

What's your opinion on overhead pressing being bad for the shoulder joints?

If I go by my personal experience (dealing with bad shoulders that is), I'd say it's correct. My shoulders definitely ache less and feel more stable when only doing lateral raises for shoulders and leaving the heavy pressing for direct chest work only.
 

Fit2Serve

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Lets examine that assumption little bit closer though.

Do we know if thats true? I have always operated under the idea that the opposite is true. Otherwise we would simply pre exhaust everything

If you normally military press 275 for 10... but after doing bench and incline, you get 225 x 10... you've just lost 50lbs of stimulation in that one exercise.

You presume the preceding work on chest that fatigued your delts is equivalent to just military pressing 275...... but it may not be. Its likely that your triceps and front delts are fatigued which is weakening your military press, which actually takes away some from full delt stimulus

Just playing the devils advocate. Im not sure I'm wrong

devils advocate here, you could say that since the triceps are fatigued from the chest exercises so they are assisting less during the overhead presses so delts are being stimulated more/equal

my answer to original poster is you are over thinking it. AND keep in mind exercises for say delts that DONT use triceps for assistance ie lateral raises, upright rows.... i do push pull legs split and i always do delts at end of push day cuz laterals and upright rows dont need assitance so i can work em directly and let tris rest
-F2S
-F2S
 

Fit2Serve

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What's your opinion on overhead pressing being bad for the shoulder joints?

If I go by my personal experience (dealing with bad shoulders that is), I'd say it's correct. My shoulders definitely ache less and feel more stable when only doing lateral raises for shoulders and leaving the heavy pressing for direct chest work only.

dumbells for overhead presses are safer in my opinion. can move freely to accomodate your own unique skeletal frame
-F2S
 

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