RBC Hematocrit

[Black Beard]

He shouldn't be donating all the time. What he should do is not test his RBC's anymore because it's only going to lead to anxiety when nothing is going to happen as a result of his isolated high hematocrit.

Have we seen any literature supporting that elevated HCT/RBC is not a clinical concern?


Generally, it would seem to be a risk factor, especially in the setting of symptoms; headaches, flushing, elevated BP, etc. Especially in someone who is not cardiovascularly fit. Obviously, there are worst things for your health like elevated BP, AAS abuse, sedentary lifestyle, obesity. So a very healthy male on TRT with +53% HCT is still ahead of 90% of the population.

 

[marssel]

Lucky you. Nattokinase most definitely does not impact my hematocrit number, but I take it to prevent clots and to reverse atherosclerosis so it's incredibly beneficial regardless.

Any negative sides to Nattokinase? You said it reverses heart disease, how so if you don’t mind.

 

[nothuman]

Have we seen any literature supporting that elevated HCT/RBC is not a clinical concern?


Generally, it would seem to be a risk factor, especially in the setting of symptoms; headaches, flushing, elevated BP, etc. Especially in someone who is not cardiovascularly fit. Obviously, there are worst things for your health like elevated BP, AAS abuse, sedentary lifestyle, obesity. So a very healthy male on TRT with +53% HCT is still ahead of 90% of the population.

Well we haven't seen any literature showing that it is a clinical concern in the absence of high platelets and sleep apnea. People living in Colorado aren't all dropping dead from having high RBC's due to the altitude.

Are we sure people who claim to have symptoms of high hematocrit on TRT aren't actually dealing with those symptoms as a result of another cause?

 

[nothuman]

Any negative sides to Nattokinase? You said it reverses heart disease, how so if you don’t mind.

No sides that I am aware of.

Effective management of atherosclerosis progress and hyperlipidemia with nattokinase: A clinical study with 1,062 participants

Nattokinase (NK), known as a potent fibrinolytic and antithrombotic agent, has been shown to have antiatherosclerotic and lipid-lowering effects. However, data on human clinical studies are limited. In this clinical study involving 1,062 participants, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[alfresco]

Well we haven't seen any literature showing that it is a clinical concern in the absence of high platelets and sleep apnea. People living in Colorado aren't all dropping dead from having high RBC's due to the altitude.

Are we sure people who claim to have symptoms of high hematocrit on TRT aren't actually dealing with those symptoms as a result of another cause?

Take a look at the high altitude miners in Peru (?). Extremely high hematocrit.

The was also an Olympic athlete (Norwegian?) who was banned from competition for again, extremely high hematocrit but that turned out to be genetic. (I think he brother had it also.)

Interesting subject. And like has been mentioned, clinical studies would be interesting, think risk factors but don’t know if proven or just extrapolated.

 

[Black Beard]

Well we haven't seen any literature showing that it is a clinical concern in the absence of high platelets and sleep apnea. People living in Colorado aren't all dropping dead from having high RBC's due to the altitude.

Are we sure people who claim to have symptoms of high hematocrit on TRT aren't actually dealing with those symptoms as a result of another cause?

What's the average/median HCT in Colorado? I've seen this rationale before but never any numbers .



Often, the symptom's onset is with the rise in HCT will full relief after phlebotomy.


At elevation, 53% seems to be the top of the range. That's generally the cut off where i'm not concerned for someone on TRT, but when i see it nearing 60% at full hydration, it's a bit sketchy.

 

[Massive G]

Have we seen any literature supporting that elevated HCT/RBC is not a clinical concern?


Generally, it would seem to be a risk factor, especially in the setting of symptoms; headaches, flushing, elevated BP, etc. Especially in someone who is not cardiovascularly fit. Obviously, there are worst things for your health like elevated BP, AAS abuse, sedentary lifestyle, obesity. So a very healthy male on TRT with +53% HCT is still ahead of 90% of the population.

The problem is that we are doing tons of aas so it's a kind of clinical blood doping there are many cases of endurance athletes stroking on EPO. But that's more related to the rapid onset of rbc production in a short amount of time vs months for most bodybuilders taking AAS. Throw on top of that the lipid problem a lot of guys have due to orals and certain injectable AAS. Once you get past 55 it gets dangerous. Some people get really low iron from multiple donations in attempt to get it down. I tracked my hematocrit for years and would go in hyperhydrated before a draw at the cancer center. They'd pull off a pint and it would drop 1.5%. So I would not under estimate the dangers of high rbc. My hematologist said my safe level was 55% and would draw a pint if above that. I probably gave 100 pints of blood in all my years. Got more red cross shit than you can imagine. I don't miss them because I called them the vein butchers.
Luckily the girls at the cancer center used these special needles that were short and were easy sticks. I have asked if I could donate blood and they said yes but had to go to blood bank. Like I said donating blood infrequently is very healthy especially for me as it is proven men have greater risk of heart attacks from bound iron vs women who naturally shed blood every month. Funny story one time I was getting hooked up I see this jacked chick come in and get a phlebotomy I looked over at her and she winked and threw up a bicep. LOL. I guess the AAS stopped her cycles of natural blood release. Take care of yourself...only one life to live.

 

[Black Beard]

The problem is that we are doing tons of aas so it's a kind of clinical blood doping there are many cases of endurance athletes stroking on EPO. But that's more related to the rapid onset of rbc production in a short amount of time vs months for most bodybuilders taking AAS. Throw on top of that the lipid problem a lot of guys have due to orals and certain injectable AAS. Once you get past 55 it gets dangerous. Some people get really low iron from multiple donations in attempt to get it down. I tracked my hematocrit for years and would go in hyperhydrated before a draw at the cancer center. They'd pull off a pint and it would drop 1.5%. So I would not under estimate the dangers of high rbc. My hematologist said my safe level was 55% and would draw a pint if above that. I probably gave 100 pints of blood in all my years. Got more red cross shit than you can imagine. I don't miss them because I called them the vein butchers.
Luckily the girls at the cancer center used these special needles that were short and were easy sticks. I have asked if I could donate blood and they said yes but had to go to blood bank. Like I said donating blood infrequently is very healthy especially for me as it is proven men have greater risk of heart attacks from bound iron vs women who naturally shed blood every month. Funny story one time I was getting hooked up I see this jacked chick come in and get a phlebotomy I looked over at her and she winked and threw up a bicep. LOL. I guess the AAS stopped her cycles of natural blood release. Take care of yourself...only one life to live.

Yep, we just don't know. We know that frequent donation will nuke ferritin/iron stores and lead to anemia with its own set of issues (fatigue, malaise, impaired mood, decreased endurance, etc)


An elite cyclist like Lance Armstrong has an extremely powerful heart and vasculature/muscle to put that RBC to use. Much different from your typical red faced middle aged TRT patient with already high blood pressure, obesity, and sedentary lifestyle besides gym 3 times per week.

 

[Massive G]

Yep, we just don't know. We know that frequent donation will nuke ferritin/iron stores and lead to anemia with its own set of issues (fatigue, malaise, impaired mood, decreased endurance, etc)


An elite cyclist like Lance Armstrong has an extremely powerful heart and vasculature/muscle to put that RBC to use. Much different from your typical red faced middle aged TRT patient with already high blood pressure, obesity, and sedentary lifestyle besides gym 3 times per week.

Yup. People can help themselves out by taking nattokinase bromelain omegas and k2 for blood and arterial health. I would note since I saw a specialist and wasn't honest about AAS use I underwent 10s of thousands of dollars of hospital tests like bone marrow biopsy radiated blood bone marrow studies as well as genetic testing to rule out a root cause already known as secondary polycythemia. We are sometimes our worst enemy but the first dickhead I saw in the early 2000s would always taunt me about steroids everytime I was in there.

 

[Black Beard]

Yup. People can help themselves out by taking nattokinase bromelain omegas and k2 for blood and arterial health. I would note since I saw a specialist and wasn't honest about AAS use I underwent 10s of thousands of dollars of hospital tests like bone marrow biopsy radiated blood bone marrow studies as well as genetic testing to rule out a root cause already known as secondary polycythemia. We are sometimes our worst enemy but the first dickhead I saw in the early 2000s would always taunt me about steroids everytime I was in there.

and the ULTIMATE supplement for cardiovascular health.....Regular cardiovascular exercise.

 

[marssel]

Well we haven't seen any literature showing that it is a clinical concern in the absence of high platelets and sleep apnea. People living in Colorado aren't all dropping dead from having high RBC's due to the altitude.

Are we sure people who claim to have symptoms of high hematocrit on TRT aren't actually dealing with those symptoms as a result of another cause?

So sleep apnea affects bloods? I had it untreated for like 20 years, I feel way better on the CPap but my blood never got thick even when I was blasting, thanks for info

 

[nothuman]

What's the average/median HCT in Colorado? I've seen this rationale before but never any numbers .



Often, the symptom's onset is with the rise in HCT will full relief after phlebotomy.


At elevation, 53% seems to be the top of the range. That's generally the cut off where i'm not concerned for someone on TRT, but when i see it nearing 60% at full hydration, it's a bit sketchy.

I've had hematocrit of 60% many times over the course of years. It fluctuates but never goes below 54%. I stopped worrying about it because I know I have a really good fibrinogen level, good platelets, no high BP, no sleep apnea, and no factor V or prothrombin 3. I also consume a lot of Omega 3s and natto.

 

[nothuman]

What's the average/median HCT in Colorado? I've seen this rationale before but never any numbers .



Often, the symptom's onset is with the rise in HCT will full relief after phlebotomy.


At elevation, 53% seems to be the top of the range. That's generally the cut off where i'm not concerned for someone on TRT, but when i see it nearing 60% at full hydration, it's a bit sketchy.

to add to my last post, there's nothing I can do about it besides discontinue TRT, which would significantly decrease quality of life and increase risk of cardiovascular disease.

Average hematocrit in men in Bolivia is 52.7% (study of almost 2000 people) and that's without any androgen use. They aren't dropping dead of strokes or DVT's over there.

Normal hematological values for healthy persons living at 4000 meters in Bolivia - PubMed

Defining the range of normal hematocrit and hemoglobin levels in residents of high altitude is required to diagnose chronic mountain sickness (CMS) and other conditions defined, in part, by hematocrit or hemoglobin values. We studied 1,934 healthy, young (aged 15 to 29 yr) male and female...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[nothuman]

So sleep apnea affects bloods? I had it untreated for like 20 years, I feel way better on the CPap but my blood never got thick even when I was blasting, thanks for info

Yes sleep apnea definitely raises RBC production.

 

[Black Beard]

to add to my last post, there's nothing I can do about it besides discontinue TRT, which would significantly decrease quality of life and increase risk of cardiovascular disease.

Average hematocrit in men in Bolivia is 52.7% (study of almost 2000 people) and that's without any androgen use. They aren't dropping dead of strokes or DVT's over there.

Normal hematological values for healthy persons living at 4000 meters in Bolivia - PubMed

Defining the range of normal hematocrit and hemoglobin levels in residents of high altitude is required to diagnose chronic mountain sickness (CMS) and other conditions defined, in part, by hematocrit or hemoglobin values. We studied 1,934 healthy, young (aged 15 to 29 yr) male and female...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yeah, that's what i'm saying. Studies ive seen of people at high altitude doesnt go over 53% HCT and that's kind of where i feel safe telling TRT patients to not really worry about it.


I do believe that if you are very fit from a cardiovascular/pulmonary fitness stand point, that it's likely your body can handle and use that extra RBC versus the sterotypical red faced fat guy on TRT i mentioned earlier (Purely theory, but based on physiology and logic)


Cardio is king for health and disease prevention no matter what.

 

[whoremoan]

to add to my last post, there's nothing I can do about it besides discontinue TRT, which would significantly decrease quality of life and increase risk of cardiovascular disease.

Average hematocrit in men in Bolivia is 52.7% (study of almost 2000 people) and that's without any androgen use. They aren't dropping dead of strokes or DVT's over there.

Normal hematological values for healthy persons living at 4000 meters in Bolivia - PubMed

Defining the range of normal hematocrit and hemoglobin levels in residents of high altitude is required to diagnose chronic mountain sickness (CMS) and other conditions defined, in part, by hematocrit or hemoglobin values. We studied 1,934 healthy, young (aged 15 to 29 yr) male and female...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

yeh your right about stopping TRT

and you may be right about high hematocrit, but you may not be too
so for me id rather just come off completely for 3 months and it does come down
then rinse and repeat,,, plus coming off i have no issues with dick working, i do lose libido though but when i get back on trt i feel like tren x10 in the libido department

and i know for sure this way is safe and im not deep down paranoid about thick blood

also less fatigue when hematocrit is normal

 

[marssel]

Yes sleep apnea definitely raises RBC production.

Huh well mines normal and I’m on gear and a CPap but I think I had it for 2 decades b4 getting a CPap and my RBC was good, what is it a reaction to the stopping breathing like a stress adaptation?

 

[Black Beard]

Huh well mines normal and I’m on gear and a CPap but I think I had it for 2 decades b4 getting a CPap and my RBC was good, what is it a reaction to the stopping breathing like a stress adaptation?

It's hypoxia induced. Body isn't getting oxygen during sleep, so it compensates by trying to make more RBC.

That's why athletes train at high altitude for endurance advantage. Thinner air = less oxygen = body makes more RBC to compensate. = More RBC = More oxygen to muscles and heart = Better endurance = Advantage in sports

 

[pothole]

the biggest thing for me was dropping the red meat. I was eating around 4-5 lbs of organic ground beef every week. Once I swapped to ground turkey I saw a massive improvement (drop) in RBC and HCT. Now I barely touch 50 HCT on a blast. whereas before id hover around 53 to 54 on a cruise...

 

[nothuman]

yeh your right about stopping TRT

and you may be right about high hematocrit, but you may not be too
so for me id rather just come off completely for 3 months and it does come down
then rinse and repeat,,, plus coming off i have no issues with dick working, i do lose libido though but when i get back on trt i feel like tren x10 in the libido department

and i know for sure this way is safe and im not deep down paranoid about thick blood

also less fatigue when hematocrit is normal

I understand the concern. I mean if there was a way to drop it by 5-10% with no consequences, I’d still do it of course…but until then, I’m just gonna roll with it. It’s not uncommon for guys to walk around with a HCT in the high 50s over time. As long as I have no other risk factors, I won’t stress about it.