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Recrurring rhabdomyolysis

xyz14

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Hello everyone I want to ask if anyone here ever had similiar issues as i have and what was the solution for them
tldr;
I've been working out since 2010 without any health issues
-started taking gear in 2015, never took gh, insulin, dnp,t3,
-never had any issues except HDL climbing a bit lower than range and HCT climbing to 51
-obivsously been consistent with bloodwork since 2015
-competed natty in 2013, 2014, on gear in 2016, 2018, again no issues with anything
-Started with gear low - 300mg enanthate was 1st cycle..gradually progressed to where i am now and that is 750-875 test + 250-375 deca with 1 arimidex eod
-Havent used more than 300mgs tren and that was in september 2018
-Between cycles i did pct up until 2017 and then i switched to BnC..C for me is 100-175mgs of test and B is never above 1,5g and no orals


Now what is wrong:
3rd of Sept. 2019 I was in tenth week of a 750 test 375 deca cycle and thats when shit happened
By shit happening I mean getting rhabdomyolysis, CK around 40k. I was put on IV for 2 days and that was it. Didnt train for three weeks afterwads, then slowly started back training w/ intensity.
I wasnt doing anything different in training, nutrition etc, recovered in a week and my liver, heart, lungs and most importantly kidneys were absolutely fine after that


I went cold turkey till december, then I started 150mgs of test up until mid of january, then i started another cycle - 750 only and then i added deca @ 375mg again in half of feb.
March '20 - another rhabdo episode, CK around 20k this time, havent got admitted to hospital because I swore that I am hydrating and peeing enough.
Stopped the gear again and stopped training since the gyms were locked down here.
Half of june - Gyms opened, I trained for 3 weeks without any troubles so again as dumb I am i went on cycle. 750 test for 4 weeks, 5weeks on 750 test+ 300 mast.
At the last week of doing mast with test i started having crippling rhabdo pains again, took a week off and everything was fine. Switched from mast to deca and well, shit started happening again.
My CK was around thousand this monday after an arm workout. On friday after 6 days off its @ 423. Im gonna get retested this tuesday to see if my Ck gets down to normal values.

-Obviously here the deca sounds like culprit, but i havnet had any issues with it back in 2018 or i havent had any issues while contest prepping on 500 test / 300tren / 300eq and 20mg sdrol and 30mg winny and the first half o f conotest prep was iirc 750test w 500 deca.

-the rabhdo pains as i call it are cruel and crippling and very different from regular doms and they start at the night of the same day as i worked out, usually at around 3am
-If i get "rhabdo pains" in my chest or legs im barely able to function and nothing helps with pain except getting through it and flushing water like crazy, of course that leads to a bit of local oedema but no comparment syndrome..luckily yet

-no im not dehydrated ever, my minerals are always good and i never drink less than a gallon of water per day w/ appropriate amoount of sodium in meals
-eGFR, creatinine, bun, always in range
-Only thing that gets wrecked is my CK which then raises AST/ALT but i get back in range quickly
-Got a pretty stressful job and gf and a puppy lol, my sleep is off very often but i dont think sleep loss and stress can trigger brutal reaction like this

-I have researched all of this and what I gathered is that if its not the stress and bad sleep then it has to be some kind of glycogen storage disease, fatty acid oxidation disease or something like that.
-But if I had any of these diseases then it would surely manifest earlier so im not really believeing in that or rather not believing in that bcs im a stubborn idiot and want to continue with this crazy lifestyle lol

-Basically I can train but not to failure and not with volume as I was used to and it stresses me mentally even more.

Hell I dont even know where I am going with this post. Guess I just wanted to vent.
Anyone here had the same issues? Is it possible its from gear/stress/lack of sleep? Or some shit that i got from a tick etc.?


TLDR2;
-Getting rhabdomyolysis after a good workout
-no issues ever since 2010 up until sept. 2019
-Doctors are telling me its from working out too hard and they dont want to do any tests on me, its obvious i did this all to myself with dem steroids, proteins and liftin and if i stop doing all this then im cured



Thanks for any input guys.
Sorry for any typos or nonsensical sentences, english is not my native language but I try my best to keep up lol.
 

Pusher

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whenever i had rhabdo i was told to 'super hydrate'/pound water, which at one time lead to dropping my potassium levels to low it produced 'thyrotoxic-periodical-paralysis' (me waking up unable to use my lower body from about mid-chest down).

side note; just doing an injection will raise your ck-levels a little, not to the 20-40k range, obviously, but maybe a few thousand the next day. in my experience.
 

xyz14

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whenever i had rhabdo i was told to 'super hydrate'/pound water, which at one time lead to dropping my potassium levels to low it produced 'thyrotoxic-periodical-paralysis' (me waking up unable to use my lower body from about mid-chest down).

side note; just doing an injection will raise your ck-levels a little, not to the 20-40k range, obviously, but maybe a few thousand the next day. in my experience.
Did you ever find out the culprit for you rhabdo? Just a hard workout or was it related to something else?
Do you think that after rhabdo the body is more suspectiblee to having it again?
I will keep my K in check, thanks for the info. I never heard of that thyrotoxic thing. I will look it up tmo.
 

jeroendebleser

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What a shitty problem to have mate. I do hope you find a doctor that is willing to look deeper into this rather than simply saying it's from working out too much/too hard, taking gear or eating too much protein. I've never heard of this happening to someone before and I've been around a while so I'm afraid you aren't going to find much help on here though. Wish I could help more but your story baffles me.
 

Kaladryn

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What are your workouts like? How much volume? How much intensity? How long? How frequent?

Also, sleep and stress can definitely contribute. What is average sleep like?

It's possible you have caused some permanent damage to the kidneys and are now more sensitive to rhabdo, this could easily not show on kidney function tests.
 

[email protected]

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several thousands is not abnormal the day after hard workouts, you do not have rhabdo if your ck is simply a few thousands.
I had rhabdo 2 years ago and trust me, the unbearable pain, the brown urine etc are indicators that you have rhabdo, not a simple number on a bloodtest
 

J.Jameson

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several thousands is not abnormal the day after hard workouts, you do not have rhabdo if your ck is simply a few thousands.
I had rhabdo 2 years ago and trust me, the unbearable pain, the brown urine etc are indicators that you have rhabdo, not a simple number on a bloodtest

are we talking muddy brown or light brown tea? thats some serious dehydration or something bro. damn!!!
 

xyz14

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Kaladryn:
I usually work out 2on 1 off, 6 to 12 sets to failure depending on body part.
Now i workout 1 on 1 off and around 2 RIR, which is pretty worthless imo.
My sleep is 7-8hours on a good day, 5-6 on a bad day lol. I would say that i have "bad" days at least three times a week to simplify things.
My kidney were fine after my worst rhabdo episode, confirmed with ultrasound. But that was a year ago so who knows now.

Manu: Trust me i know the pains. When my CK was around 40k i couldnt bend my leg by an inch without almost passing out and puking from the pain.
Very diff. pain than doms, i would call it "cold" pain, something like a horrible 12hour cramp. But you know that i bet.
My piss turned brown-ish in the afternoon after drinking around 4 liters of water already. Basically when the pain started to subside i started to piss blood.
When my CK was 20k i couldnt move my arms an inch because tose pains in my chest. Couldnt even breathe heavy bcs that was stretching my pecs.
At 20k they let me go home, myoglobin present in my pee but supposedly bearable if i keep drinking at least 6-8l per day with proper mineral support. Which i did.

The thing is i get these diff. "rhabdo pains" after a good workout. If i wanted to train legs like i was used to i would probatble have to be on dialysis and opiates at the same time. I dont think i want to do that tbh lol.
My body just stopped tolerating training to failure, to simplify things.

Have you trained without problems after your big rhabdo? Or do you sometimes have symptoms that you may have it again?
 

[email protected]

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my rhabdo was not related to training (at least not only).. thats why i dont have any issues..
my girlfriend with whom i lived together for 4 years suddently told me she had another guy and will leave my. My world broke into pieces because bodybuilding and her was the only thing i had back then. i had a constant pusle of 130-140, sweat buckloads and cried all the time. didnt eat or drink really..
after 2 days the rhabdo symptoms arrived (as you describe)..
piss was dark brown like cola @J.Jameson
 

Fa Seeshus

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OP, are you on any Statins? That could definitely cause those issues.
 

xyz14

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Manu: sorry to hear that man. Good that isnt happening anymore.

Fa seeshus: Nope and never have been on anything else except some antihistamines (cetirizine hcl) during spring and summer.
I have tried some zolpidem lately and it didnt make a difference in my recovery afaik.
Those are basically only meds I've been on during last 10yrs. Oh and antibiotics i had once, bcs of rotten wisdom tooth.

As far as otc supps go, I've tried r-ala, berberine, astralagus extract, citrus bergamot, preworkouts without dmaa, zma, tryptophan, 5htp, some good multi on top of all that.
And intra hbcd/vitargo/maltodextrin with hydro whey. Seemed to help at first, doesn't work now.

i cant find any logical trigger besides deca and stress/bad sleep.
 

homonunculus

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Manu: sorry to hear that man. Good that isnt happening anymore.

Fa seeshus: Nope and never have been on anything else except some antihistamines (cetirizine hcl) during spring and summer.
I have tried some zolpidem lately and it didnt make a difference in my recovery afaik.
Those are basically only meds I've been on during last 10yrs. Oh and antibiotics i had once, bcs of rotten wisdom tooth.

As far as otc supps go, I've tried r-ala, berberine, astralagus extract, citrus bergamot, preworkouts without dmaa, zma, tryptophan, 5htp, some good multi on top of all that.
And intra hbcd/vitargo/maltodextrin with hydro whey. Seemed to help at first, doesn't work now.

i cant find any logical trigger besides deca and stress/bad sleep.

There's your issue, I'd bet, my man - Fa Sheeshus was on it.

Citrus Bergamot has statin activity: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ion-and-its-Possible-Mechanisms-of-Action.pdf

"5. POSSIBLE MOLECULAR MECHANISMS s0060
OF ACTION OF BERGAMOT
POLYPHENOLS
5.1 Interference with Cholesterol Synthesis by s0065
HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibition
Bergamot juice and albedo and derivatives as BPF p0435
contains two rare flavonoids, brutieridin and melitidin
that have been suggested to act as direct HMG-CoA
reductase inhibitors.16,47"

--------------------------------

Statins and myopathy: https://www.elitefts.com/education/...ice-for-healthy-blood-lipids-whos-foolin-who/


"Abstract:
Statins are considered to be safe, well tolerated and the most efficient drugs for the treatment of hypercholesterolemia, one of the
main risk factor for atherosclerosis, and therefore they are frequently prescribed medications. The most severe adverse effect of
statins is myotoxicity, in the form of myopathy, myalgia, myositis or rhabdomyolysis. Clinical trials commonly define statin toxicity
as myalgia or muscle weakness with creatine kinase (CK) levels greater than 10 times the normal upper limit. Rhabdomyolysis is the
most severe adverse effect of statins, which may result in acute renal failure, disseminated intravascular coagulation and death. The
exact pathophysiology of statin-induced myopathy is not fully known. Multiple pathophysiological mechanisms may contribute to
statin myotoxicity. This review focuses on a number of them. The prevention of statin-related myopathy involves using the lowest
statin dose required to achieve therapeutic goals and avoiding polytherapy with drugs known to increase systemic exposure and
myopathy risk. Currently, the only effective treatment of statin-induced myopathy is the discontinuation of statin use in patients affected
by muscle aches, pains and elevated CK levels."

---------------------------------

(FYI: Berberine might be an issue, too - much less clear there:


"It appeared that hyperhomocysteinemia increased the mRNA level of HMG-CoA reductase and decreased the protein level of phosphorylated HMG-CoA reductase (inactive form of the enzyme) in the liver, leading to an elevation of hepatic HMG-CoA reductase activity. Berberine treatment resulted in an increase in the level of phosphorylated HMG-CoA reductase (inactive form), which, in turn, caused a significant reduction of HMG-CoA reductase activity."

VERSUS


" Berberine had no effect on the half-life of the mRNA for HMG-CoA reductase." )



-S
 

xyz14

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Wow I would never figure that out. Thanks a lot.
Could these effect be "permanent"? Because i was on berberine iirc only in 2018 prep and then maybe in 2019 spring.
Citrus bergamot i took throughout november/december 19.

Im starting to run out of ideas what could be the cause.
I doubt I have some kind of GSD. Only thing that still comes to mind is Carnitine palmitoyltransferase II deficiency.
Im asking my practitican today to refer me to neurology/genetic testing. We will see but i bet it will take at least six months until they accept me for tests.
That's universal "free" healtcare in Czech Republic in a nutshell haha.
 

homonunculus

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Wow I would never figure that out. Thanks a lot.
Could these effect be "permanent"? Because i was on berberine iirc only in 2018 prep and then maybe in 2019 spring.
Citrus bergamot i took throughout november/december 19.

Im starting to run out of ideas what could be the cause.
I doubt I have some kind of GSD. Only thing that still comes to mind is Carnitine palmitoyltransferase II deficiency.
Im asking my practitican today to refer me to neurology/genetic testing. We will see but i bet it will take at least six months until they accept me for tests.
That's universal "free" healtcare in Czech Republic in a nutshell haha.

Sure!

There are genetic proclivities for statin-induced myopathy and rhabdo in general:




I haven't seen data suggesting that previous rhabdo increases risk in the future *per se* (as a singular factor), but it would make sense to me that previously highly (somewhat permanently) damaged (scar tissue riddled, perhaps) muscle would be less functional and more likely to incur damage in the future. HOWEVER, there's as protective effect ("repeated bout effect") of muscle injury that would typically play a role here. The main gist I'd take from that is to go easy when starting back and not toss in any crazy workouts / efforts out of nowhere. I personally would always be sure to ease in so that there is only manageable soreness that protects against greater soreness, and hopefully rhabdo, in future workouts. (The protective effect lasts quite a while, but I'd still be extra careful in your case!)

From your history, it does sounds like the gear is involved and this might be a function of oxidative stress from the gear itself or maybe even rancid carrier oil or a solvent / other ingredient (BA, BB, Ethyl oleate, etc). Countering this with standard liver protection (most of which has anti-oxidant actions) as well as other anti-oxidants (C, E, etc) could help here, too.

Timing could matter here as the free radical stress of training is an important aspect of the stimulus: I'd NOT, if I were you, train and do injections on the same day as this would double up free radical stress which (if what I'm guessing has any relevance) would not be good.

NSAID's of course help with muscle injury / DOMS (just take care of your liver of course). Curcumin (BCM-95) on an empty stomach has COX and LOX inhibitory actions with less likely hood of affecting muscle growth from what I can tell (and possibly can retard atrophy, probably in part via anti-oxidant activity, which fits with a worst-case scenario where you've overdone it and are facing atrophy secondary to training / gear-induced injury and disuse.)

-S
 

xyz14

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Thank you so much. If it was possible i would send you some dog treats or something for this haha.

Update on my situation: 12 days no training, bloods in attachment for this post. Those alfa-glpbulin things are from last Monday, it took them some time to deliver these.
My ck is still double the range, dont know how. Maybe some good time with gf could have caused that lol. Its 317 U/L.

Anyways I got myself an appointment with a neurologist on 16th Oct. Took some persuasion and will probably take some money but I need to get a hold of this thing.
Screenshot_20200929-120156.png Screenshot_20200929-120051.png
 

Kaladryn

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Kaladryn:
I usually work out 2on 1 off, 6 to 12 sets to failure depending on body part.
Now i workout 1 on 1 off and around 2 RIR, which is pretty worthless imo.
My sleep is 7-8hours on a good day, 5-6 on a bad day lol. I would say that i have "bad" days at least three times a week to simplify things.
My kidney were fine after my worst rhabdo episode, confirmed with ultrasound. But that was a year ago so who knows now.

This really doesn't sound like that much, but I guess it depends on what failure is, if you are able to generate a very high intensity on 6-12 sets, that could be way too much. Some people have a very easy time tapping in that 'fight or flight' intensity level (the same type of people who play positions like inside linebacker). People who easily access this level of intensity usually do so without realizing it, it can look totally normal.

Your sleep really isn't that bad either.

I'd keep exploring specialists and definitely try very low volume training. I'd also consider test only to rule out a reaction to some compound. Also, make sure your gear is clean and uses carrier oils that aren't exotic.

Best of luck, wish I could be more help, looks like some others above have better info than mine.
 

homonunculus

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Thank you so much. If it was possible i would send you some dog treats or something for this haha.

Update on my situation: 12 days no training, bloods in attachment for this post. Those alfa-glpbulin things are from last Monday, it took them some time to deliver these.
My ck is still double the range, dont know how. Maybe some good time with gf could have caused that lol. Its 317 U/L.

Anyways I got myself an appointment with a neurologist on 16th Oct. Took some persuasion and will probably take some money but I need to get a hold of this thing.
View attachment 121212View attachment 121213

LOL!!!

No worries, man! The pups would love that, but just getting better is all I'd want!


The elevation in muscle-derived enzymes can persist for a week or more:
1. Pettersson J, Hindorf U, Persson P, Bengtsson T, Malmqvist U, Werkstrom V, and Ekelund M. Muscular exercise can cause highly pathological liver function tests in healthy men. Br J Clin Pharmacol 65: 253-259, 2008.

Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 6.14.17 PM.png
 

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