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relevancy of gram totals in AAS

asteelz

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16th century physician/alcheimist Paracelsus famously said “the dose determines the poison”
This is something that’s been on my mind for a while now.. We live in a society ( bodybuilders) where the limits are blurred and boundaries stretched. Everyone’s always talking about gram totals as a measure for the toxicity or intensity of a cycle of AAS. I do agree that this is relevant but only when taken into the appropriate context of compounds used.

For example. Person A, B, and C are all capped at “2g” per week..

Person A is taking 1000mg primo E, 400mg test c, and 600mg EQ.

Person B is taking 1000mg test P, 500mg tren A, and 500 mg winstrol oral

Person C is taking 700mg test suspension, 300mg superdrol oral, 300mg halotestin, and 700mg tren ace.

Each are totaling 2g, but they are drastically different in regards to toxicity potential and the ability to change a physique with all other variables aligned.
Granted the disparity in toxic load will become less apparent with doses above the 3-4 g range, as most if not all androgens both singularly or combined in those quantities will become acutely and chronically toxic.

Let us compound on the toxic potential of said individuals, A, B, C. assuming genetics are equal, middle of the road for each.

Person A is not likely to need a compilation of ancillary drugs to combat his usage. Perhaps some hypertension mitigation, lets say Lisinopril 10mg, or Micardis 40mg. The toxic load of either is minimal, with no added hepatotoxicity and possibly some nephro-protection in the Lisinopril

Person B will likely need some sort of estrogen mitigation, be it AI or SARM, perhaps Prolactin control via a dopamine agonist. Blood pressure is also likely to become an issue, as trenbolone seems to universally elevate this. With the addition of an oral and tren acid reflux is common, so lets also include a PPI, or proton pump inhibitor. Now were looking at , theoretically, 20mg+ of Lisinopril, or 40-80mg Micardis, An AI .5 adex ed or 12.5 aromasin ED, and esomeprazole 40mg daily. The deleterious effects on lipids and b12 now must be considered

Person C is at the greatest risk for toxicity, due to the use of strong orals and the highest doses of trenbolone. Blood pressure, lipids, GI health, Estrogen, prolactin, Sleep quality, and renal health all become an issue with his usage.
This is all before we begin to factor in the variables related to diet, rest, supplementation, peptide use including gh and insulin, OTC medications, and work variables.

Some points to consider for my brothers and sisters here on PM.. While total dose is important, it’s perhaps more appropriate to look at the dose range for each compound that contributes to said total when trying to be health conscious. Love you all and wish for everyone to stay healthy in their personal journeys in this insane sport.
 

nothuman

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Agreed. Total grams is a virtually irrelevant number and I usually skip over posts when people only mention that because it really tells us nothing. 500mg of tren is a lot more toxic than 1g of test. It’s a silly figure.
 

xman280

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u got a point...during Arnold's era they were known to use high doses of orals such as drolls, dball, etc, not much of winny and primo users or 3-4 g of test plus 2 g of EQ and they still looked badass
 

Durro

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Likewise! That makes sense! It’s right in front of use, we just don’t see it. Lower doses do work but the temptation is always tapping on your shoulder.


Sent from The Iron Pile
 

LATS

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16th century physician/alcheimist Paracelsus famously said “the dose determines the poison”
This is something that’s been on my mind for a while now.. We live in a society ( bodybuilders) where the limits are blurred and boundaries stretched. Everyone’s always talking about gram totals as a measure for the toxicity or intensity of a cycle of AAS. I do agree that this is relevant but only when taken into the appropriate context of compounds used.

For example. Person A, B, and C are all capped at “2g” per week..

Person A is taking 1000mg primo E, 400mg test c, and 600mg EQ.

Person B is taking 1000mg test P, 500mg tren A, and 500 mg winstrol oral

Person C is taking 700mg test suspension, 300mg superdrol oral, 300mg halotestin, and 700mg tren ace.

Each are totaling 2g, but they are drastically different in regards to toxicity potential and the ability to change a physique with all other variables aligned.
Granted the disparity in toxic load will become less apparent with doses above the 3-4 g range, as most if not all androgens both singularly or combined in those quantities will become acutely and chronically toxic.

Let us compound on the toxic potential of said individuals, A, B, C. assuming genetics are equal, middle of the road for each.

Person A is not likely to need a compilation of ancillary drugs to combat his usage. Perhaps some hypertension mitigation, lets say Lisinopril 10mg, or Micardis 40mg. The toxic load of either is minimal, with no added hepatotoxicity and possibly some nephro-protection in the Lisinopril

Person B will likely need some sort of estrogen mitigation, be it AI or SARM, perhaps Prolactin control via a dopamine agonist. Blood pressure is also likely to become an issue, as trenbolone seems to universally elevate this. With the addition of an oral and tren acid reflux is common, so lets also include a PPI, or proton pump inhibitor. Now were looking at , theoretically, 20mg+ of Lisinopril, or 40-80mg Micardis, An AI .5 adex ed or 12.5 aromasin ED, and esomeprazole 40mg daily. The deleterious effects on lipids and b12 now must be considered

Person C is at the greatest risk for toxicity, due to the use of strong orals and the highest doses of trenbolone. Blood pressure, lipids, GI health, Estrogen, prolactin, Sleep quality, and renal health all become an issue with his usage.
This is all before we begin to factor in the variables related to diet, rest, supplementation, peptide use including gh and insulin, OTC medications, and work variables.

Some points to consider for my brothers and sisters here on PM.. While total dose is important, it’s perhaps more appropriate to look at the dose range for each compound that contributes to said total when trying to be health conscious. Love you all and wish for everyone to stay healthy in their personal journeys in this insane sport.

I have said this for years.. Every compound is dose dependant .. But 500 mgs is not 500 mgs all things being equal.. And they are not..

When I hear people say " I've never gone over a gram " ...well.. Gram of what? 500 TREN and 500 test CYP is a gram..but much harsher than 500 mgs of test and 500 primo..

It's also similar to the " golden age guys" who used to say " I never went over 600 mgs total.. Then you find it was all Orals such as anadrol and dbol lol.. Hardly a moderate cycle..

And then there is length of cycle and as stated in the post above all the " help" compiunds that are needed such as anti e and prolactin etc..

One can do a safer large cycle .. But the compounds are ever so important.. And in May cases redundant and repetitive.. Combining 2 DHT compounds is silly.. But you get the picture..
 

xman280

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...from my experience 1000 mg of test , 100mg-150mg of dball, 400mg of anavar and maybe some of the old so called "pro-hormones' which are actually steroids will equal 1000 mg of test, 1000 mg of primo, 150 mg or winny ED, and 1000mg masteron... Honestly - I felt the same result regardless of the grams per week and the bloating
 

ADPharmaRep

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What boggles my mind is the fact that many AAS users still believe the trend that more is better. This argument has plagued the forums and bodybuilding world for how long? With all of the "relevant information" out there on forums and basic principles for us at our mercy, there should be no reason for unwise decisions. Yet, people forge the idea that it's all about the "drugs." There are so many variables at play here:

Training philosophy, diet & nutrition, human genetics (health tolerances & chemical response tolerance & race), total chemical experience (time having used such chemicals), age, work ethic, recovery...I'm sure I'm forgetting many more...

Let's make it even more apparent with similar variables among users A, B and C.

All 3 individuals (Whom all have the identical variables mentioned above EXCEPT HUMAN GENETICS) are taking cycle X. Now, cycle X may be any dosage or combination of oils, orals, ancillaries, peptides, HGH, and so forth.

With a one variable difference, just one! Human Genetics. Each user will have a different reaction to cycle X.

The fact of the matter is, there is a universally accepted standard and methodical way (from a safety standpoint) of using AAS from the beginning if deciding to even do so. Don't get me started on variables!!! It goes something basic like this, basic!

1. Have some time under your belt the natty way, preferably as long as possible depending on your goals.

2. First make sure you're healthy enough to even start by getting basic blood work and knowing your overall health

3. Do some research on what you are going to take and the risks involved

4. When you have the relevant information or have sought out a professional trustworthy of guidance, follow their advice

5. ONE COMPOUND!!!! NOT STACKING 15!!!! Start with ONE! A Testosterone Esther that makes sense for you! (If anyone disagrees with this remind me to bitch slap them)

6. Start with a low dose to assess tolerance and reaction

7. Stick to a cycle duration that makes sense

...And so on

The point of the matter is, gram totals are useless, and will never make sense. Asteelz has a great point, people that think in those terms really have no clue on what the they are doing. At what stage are you going to make sense of "Hey! I'm going to do 8 grams/week of gear for 25 weeks total this cycle!!! Now, I just need to figure out what compounds in combination will equal that. Hmmm, thinking cap!!! Bra this is going to be so sweet!! I'm gonna get huge!!!"

There is no sense. Let's hope the younger generation will listen and wise up...as for some of us, it's already too late because you can't fix stupid...

:)
 

asteelz

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I have said this for years.. Every compound is dose dependant .. But 500 mgs is not 500 mgs all things being equal.. And they are not..

When I hear people say " I've never gone over a gram " ...well.. Gram of what? 500 TREN and 500 test CYP is a gram..but much harsher than 500 mgs of test and 500 primo..

It's also similar to the " golden age guys" who used to say " I never went over 600 mgs total.. Then you find it was all Orals such as anadrol and dbol lol.. Hardly a moderate cycle..

And then there is length of cycle and as stated in the post above all the " help" compiunds that are needed such as anti e and prolactin etc..

One can do a safer large cycle .. But the compounds are ever so important.. And in May cases redundant and repetitive.. Combining 2 DHT compounds is silly.. But you get the picture..
100% agreed. its funny that you mention the old school guys. I just had a conversation with a guy last night who was telling me he never went over 500mg per week, but he said hes only ever used dbol and for 12-16 weeks at a time with 6 weeks off inbetween :confused:
 

xman280

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100% agreed. its funny that you mention the old school guys. I just had a conversation with a guy last night who was telling me he never went over 500mg per week, but he said hes only ever used dbol and for 12-16 weeks at a time with 6 weeks off inbetween :confused:
500mg of what ? - Anadrol? that makes sense...
 

asteelz

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What boggles my mind is the fact that many AAS users still believe the trend that more is better. This argument has plagued the forums and bodybuilding world for how long? With all of the "relevant information" out there on forums and basic principles for us at our mercy, there should be no reason for unwise decisions. Yet, people forge the idea that it's all about the "drugs." There are so many variables at play here:

Training philosophy, diet & nutrition, human genetics (health tolerances & chemical response tolerance & race), total chemical experience (time having used such chemicals), age, work ethic, recovery...I'm sure I'm forgetting many more...

Let's make it even more apparent with similar variables among users A, B and C.

All 3 individuals (Whom all have the identical variables mentioned above EXCEPT HUMAN GENETICS) are taking cycle X. Now, cycle X may be any dosage or combination of oils, orals, ancillaries, peptides, HGH, and so forth.

With a one variable difference, just one! Human Genetics. Each user will have a different reaction to cycle X.

The fact of the matter is, there is a universally accepted standard and methodical way (from a safety standpoint) of using AAS from the beginning if deciding to even do so. Don't get me started on variables!!! It goes something basic like this, basic!

1. Have some time under your belt the natty way, preferably as long as possible depending on your goals.

2. First make sure you're healthy enough to even start by getting basic blood work and knowing your overall health

3. Do some research on what you are going to take and the risks involved

4. When you have the relevant information or have sought out a professional trustworthy of guidance, follow their advice

5. ONE COMPOUND!!!! NOT STACKING 15!!!! Start with ONE! A Testosterone Esther that makes sense for you! (If anyone disagrees with this remind me to bitch slap them)

6. Start with a low dose to assess tolerance and reaction

7. Stick to a cycle duration that makes sense

...And so on

The point of the matter is, gram totals are useless, and will never make sense. Asteelz has a great point, people that think in those terms really have no clue on what the they are doing. At what stage are you going to make sense of "Hey! I'm going to do 8 grams/week of gear for 25 weeks total this cycle!!! Now, I just need to figure out what compounds in combination will equal that. Hmmm, thinking cap!!! Bra this is going to be so sweet!! I'm gonna get huge!!!"

There is no sense. Let's hope the younger generation will listen and wise up...as for some of us, it's already too late because you can't fix stupid...

:)
what blows my mind is when guys spend all this time and effort planning cycles and not even a fraction of that time or research into diet or training! Its like when people ask " what are you taking " as if somehow taking the same compounds at the same doses would transform their physique into yours.

the genetic component is HUGE in this sport! We all know that one guy who despite only lackluster effort looks better then most, while eating less strictly and taking minimal supps. We also all know the guy who has to blast 10g per week to look the same as the aforementioned.
 

asteelz

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500mg of what ? - Anadrol? that makes sense...
in his case it was dianabol, but for 16 weeks? theres much safer alternatives to elicit the same effect. Granted medically speaking anadrol is used higher than that per week and for longer, but generally the people using it are facing a much greater impending deterioration than liver damage.
 

OutToLunch

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1g per week is my threshold. Don't plan on running tren. Test no more than 500mg. So likely be combination(s) of test/mast/npp/primo.
 

xman280

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in his case it was dianabol, but for 16 weeks? theres much safer alternatives to elicit the same effect. Granted medically speaking anadrol is used higher than that per week and for longer, but generally the people using it are facing a much greater impending deterioration than liver damage.
I ve known ppl that gradually increased their dbal dose up t 300mg a day for a period of years, I guess the body gets adapted and had no issues with liver...and as far as I hear from several different ppl in Arnold's book published in the 80's he was admitting of taking 400mg of dball for a long time in his teenage years, or maybe early 20's not sure, which was later deleted from the book...but the guy I knew started at 17 and at age 19 he was up to 280mg a day ....non stop ..he was actually a bench press champ in the weight class up to 185lbs in Bulgaria and Kuwait at the same time with a lil bit over 600lbs raw...I ve personally reached 200mg of dbal in a matter of weeks and got toxic hepatitis symptoms...as soon as i cut it down to 100mg , in less than a week I felt normal...I am assuming somehow body always reach homeostasis after certain period of time....regardless of what poison u might be taking
 
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ADPharmaRep

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I ve known ppl that gradually increased their dbal dose up t 300mg a day for a period of years, I guess the body gets adapted and had no issues with liver...and as far as I hear from several different ppl in Arnold's book published in the 80's he was admitting of taking 400mg of dball for a long time in his teenage years, or maybe early 20's not sure, which was later deleted from the book...but the guy I knew started at 17 and at age 19 he was up to 280mg a day ....non stop ..he was actually a bench press champ in the weight class up to 185lbs in Bulgaria and Kuwait at the same time with a lil bit over 600lbs raw...I ve personally reached 200mg of dbal in a matter of weeks and got toxic hepatitis symptoms...as soon as i cut it down to 100mg , in less than a week I felt normal...I am assuming somehow body always reach homeostasis after certain period of time....regardless of what poison u might be taking
Xman, I respect all opinions, but as you mentioned, that's all hearsay. I heard a friend of a friend of a friend that he saw big foot in the forest. That very well may be true, but I"m not going to go waste my time looking for it. Just as I won't waste my time or even risk my health of jumping on Dbol at a certain dose with the intent of my body reaching "homeostasis..." only to take more. The body will suffer long term damage, maybe some less or more than others. But, just because that guy did it doesn't mean that you can do it, or I can do it. What's the point? If those guys did it in the past, does that make it right or smart? There was less information back then, it was a guess-and-check game. For the point of you saying somehow the body reaches homeostasis is totally incorrect and obscured, just because you reach a level of adapted tolerance, systemically it could be quite the opposite.
 

buck

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Toxicity is one of the factors I have always used no matter the dose, to determine the amount or even if I am willing to use a compound. The benefit to risk ratio is a factor in most of my decisions. Whether it be about how much crap I will eat in a day to where to buy a house, how to invest my money. Is that crazy woman going to be worth the wild sex. It is all a choice.
 

xman280

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Xman, I respect all opinions, but as you mentioned, that's all hearsay. I heard a friend of a friend of a friend that he saw big foot in the forest. That very well may be true, but I"m not going to go waste my time looking for it. Just as I won't waste my time or even risk my health of jumping on Dbol at a certain dose with the intent of my body reaching "homeostasis..." only to take more. The body will suffer long term damage, maybe some less or more than others. But, just because that guy did it doesn't mean that you can do it, or I can do it. What's the point? If those guys did it in the past, does that make it right or smart? There was less information back then, it was a guess-and-check game. For the point of you saying somehow the body reaches homeostasis is totally incorrect and obscured, just because you reach a level of adapted tolerance, systemically it could be quite the opposite.
Well true , but I grew up in eastern Europe in the 90's and we have limited steroids available at the pharmacy and the guy I talk about - he didnt tell me personally that he was taking that much but being class 185 lbs at age 19 and bench 550+ raw - booked officially in the Bulgarian federation of Powerlifting - I cant doubt much..we had bionabol ( a bottle of 40x 5mg pills) at cost of less than $2(it was literally the cheapest thing u can get for weightlifting purposes -cheaper than food, than protein and all,guys were taking it for breakfast, lunch and dinner) test prop -50mg/1 cc - $0.50 per amp, omans for $3 per amp, sus 250 - $10 per amp and Retabolil 50mg/1 cc for $5 per amp and Russian GH extracted from dead people really cheap...i cant just ignore that...we had no knowledge there about Westside barbel training, about insulin or anything...all we had was 2 books from Kris Klark from the late 80's/early 90's...a few years later after I ve met this guy, he became well- known in the weightlifting community with the nickname "K - the juice-head" . There s no way i can prove anything but i ve seen his workouts - 2 times a week -max bench - 1 rep and being 185lbs , benching raw close too 600lbs i m more inclined to believe what he was saying than not....later he turned to bodybuilding and the claims were he was doing 10cc of omnas (2500mg ED for 10 days in a row ...but that was it)...we had no knowledge about GH/slin combo.....young guys were dropping dead because gear was too cheap, cheaper than a pound of soy protein. One of the dudes that passed away was 280lb shredded - we spoke to the doctor who did the analysis and followed the autopsy - she said his blood was so damn thick all his organs failed.....we just had tons of cheap gear available and zero knowledge...the lucky ones made it to the 2000's when they start getting more info from US, the unlucky ones got on dialysis in their early 20's or passed away( we had access to french Parabolan and all kind of gear made in Europe at a bit higher prices too)....fortunately becoming a part of the EU ppl start traveling around got knowledge and start doing things right...
 
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epoxy

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only high doses where i noticed a lot was with tren. i only run 300mg of test now after getting my hair transplant, dont want to exacerbate further damage to my hair, it may still get worse over time but imo the more you use the faster it goes.

anyway, ive experimented with 150mg of tren ace a day for months on a end, cycles of up to 1500mg test / 900mg deca.

did i make better gains? yeah. did my joints feel better? yeah. did i feel like SHIT in general other than that? yes, definitely

i'm still making gains and i look better than avg on 300 test / 300 deca. don't plan on doing much more, anavar here and there, thats about it. biggest difference i've made is adding GH and planning on running 5iu for as long i can. also running mk-677 at 12.5. i feel a lot better, get great sleep, a little groggy at times but much better than walking around with high BP and short of breath all so i can have that 24/7 3d "pump".
 

musclemoose

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Agreed. Total grams is a virtually irrelevant number and I usually skip over posts when people only mention that because it really tells us nothing. 500mg of tren is a lot more toxic than 1g of test. It’s a silly figure.
Agreed
 

johnjuanb1

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I ve known ppl that gradually increased their dbal dose up t 300mg a day for a period of years, I guess the body gets adapted and had no issues with liver...and as far as I hear from several different ppl in Arnold's book published in the 80's he was admitting of taking 400mg of dball for a long time in his teenage years, or maybe early 20's not sure, which was later deleted from the book...but the guy I knew started at 17 and at age 19 he was up to 280mg a day ....non stop ..he was actually a bench press champ in the weight class up to 185lbs in Bulgaria and Kuwait at the same time with a lil bit over 600lbs raw...I ve personally reached 200mg of dbal in a matter of weeks and got toxic hepatitis symptoms...as soon as i cut it down to 100mg , in less than a week I felt normal...I am assuming somehow body always reach homeostasis after certain period of time....regardless of what poison u might be taking
I agree with your post. The body does reach homeostasis with high doses. I did 4 geeks a week for years and my liver values were only slightly elevated.
This dose was normal for my body.
I this year dropped down to 350mg and now 1 gram is all I can handle.
It’s like an alcoholic able to drink a lot of alcohol and not get drunk. Someone who doesn’t drink gets drunk fast.
 

LK3

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some good thoughts AZ!!! lol

quick notes from my head...

tren. i look at tren as 4x test... meaning for every 100mg tren we see 400mg test.

esters. i often account for ester wieghts. with eq in particular. i look at eq dose as half a dball dose. as its basically that minus the half ester weight...

then we get into metabolic stress...

how do we combat metabolic stress????:love::love::love:
my favorite word!!! lol
:cool:
 

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