Stan Efferding/Flex Wheeler Cycle

[juiceball44]

There seems to be a steady but growing axiom that even slightly elevated estrogen is bad for your health, a push for aromatase inhibitor use, at least on the internet.

We just dont know and are going by theory a lot of the time, as opposed to practical human studies.

The only thing the silver age guys had available was Testosterone beginning 1940,Dbol beginning 1958 and Deca beginning in 1960. Correct me if Im wrong, but I dont think Aromatase inhibitors were a thing until about 1980. Many of those Silver age guys lived to at least the average male life expectancy in the US of age 76, many lived past that and some of them even made it to their 90s, all while having elevated estrogen. It appears they certainly lived longer than even their Golden age counterparts.

“E2 can protect both isolated cardiac myocytes and the intact heart from ischemia-related injury. In isolated aged cardiac myocytes, estrogen loss is associated with increased expression of inflammatory cytokines and increased susceptibility to ROS. After injury, such as myocardial infarction or hypertension, the heart undergoes pathologic remodeling, which leads to deleterious effects on cardiac function. E2 has an inhibitory effect on this adverse remodeling and the salutary effects of E2 appear to be mediated primarily through ERβ. Estrogen has numerous beneficial effects on the mitochondria including increased mitochondrial gene transcription and increased activation of proteins involved in ROS removal”

Estrogen and the Cardiovascular System

Estrogen is a potent steroid with pleiotropic effects, which have yet to be fully elucidated. Estrogen has both nuclear and non-nuclear effects. The rapid response to estrogen, which involves a membrane associated estrogen receptor(ER) and is protective, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Siggy]

There seems to be a steady but growing axiom that even slightly elevated estrogen is bad for your health, a push for aromatase inhibitor use, at least on the internet.

We just dont know and are going by theory a lot of the time, as opposed to practical human studies.

The only thing the silver age guys had available was Testosterone beginning 1940,Dbol beginning 1958 and Deca beginning in 1960. Correct me if Im wrong, but I dont think Aromatase inhibitors were a thing until about 1980. Many of those Silver age guys lived to at least the average male life expectancy in the US of age 76, many lived past that and some of them even made it to their 90s, all while having elevated estrogen. It appears they certainly lived longer than even their Golden age counterparts.

EDIT: Boldenone, Masteron, Primo, anavar and winstrol were all available after 1960 as well.

I dont know if guys were using Masteron,Primo or Boldenone to lower estrogen at that time, or if those properties were even widely recognized back then.

But still, I dont believe aromatase inhibitors were a thing until 1980 and exemestane did not come on the scene until 1999.

Letro came out in 1996

 

[Elvia1023]

Just touching on powerlifters and dosages I have a close friend who’s a top UK powerlifter and has multiple WR in the squat

His cycle gets up to no more than about 1.5g max of injectables something like
750mg sust
300mg Deca
150mg ment
200mg mast
Then 50-100mg of anadrol or dbol last few weeks per day

He gets pretty much every side possible from gear so his dosages don’t venture higher

From being around a lot of decent level strength athletes the gear seems to be much less of a priority than it is for bodybuilders

I think gear is a vital component in all disciplines and the general usage (total mg) is similar. Obviously gear usage (drug type) is very different because of the final outcome/goal but I don't think powerlifters consider drugs any less of a priority because they are 100% needed to be the best you can be.

The spectrum of doses in all areas range massively so for strongman, powerlifters and bodybuilders all will have top guys using low-high doses. People abuse in all areas so it's not like one is much worse than another. Although in my experience strength athletes (more so powerlifters) takes massive amounts of gear. Just like in bodybuilding there will be plenty of guys running lower-moderate doses but just as many pushing things hard especially before an event.

In powerlifting it's very common to abuse orals especially before comps. That happens in bodybuilding as well but it's not uncommon for strength guys to take 300mg+ adrol (etc) per day and not for short periods either. A lot of guys don't inject massive amounts but they drop orals like candy. I have heard of guys taking ridiculous amounts of orals and basically taking and eating as much as humanly possible. Strongman is similar but they need to be cardiovascular fit and that can change the dynamic in many ways.

 

[Elvia1023]

I think the deaths are much lower in strength sports for a variety of reasons. I don't think it's because they abuse any less than bodybuilders. Well they abuse less things so that's definitely an important factor. A lot of the drugs bodybuilders use during contest prep can be damaging and most strength athletes will most likely never use them.

The obvious factor is the amount of people doing each and as someone just posted bodybuilding is a niche but strongman is an even smaller one. Strength athletes usually keep the drugs fairly simple as well and obviously don't need to use the variety bodybuilders do. They may still push doses hard but it's like like they are dieting hard taking t3, dnp and finishing with diuretics. That brings me onto another topic of extreme manipulation involved in bodybuilding and all the dieting and growing and yo-yoing through the years and getting extremely lean means one thing... STRESS on your body. Whilst being big isn't good for you staying similar size through your career is definitely less stress on your body than constantly forcing your body through extreme changes.

 

[stackdizzy]

Gigantism And Acromegaly Explained: Why Taller People Can Die Earlier Than Most

Here’s why tall people, even those without gigantism or acromegaly, tend to die sooner than most.

www.medicaldaily.com

 

[juggy38]

With BBers, extreme practices is the killer.
While with Strongmen, size is the killer.

There's a reason you dont see 6'4 350lb 70 year olds walking around this earth. They don't exist.

I think the deaths are much lower in strength sports for a variety of reasons. I don't think it's because they abuse any less than bodybuilders. Well they abuse less things so that's definitely an important factor. A lot of the drugs bodybuilders use during contest prep can be damaging and most strength athletes will most likely never use them.

The obvious factor is the amount of people doing each and as someone just posted bodybuilding is a niche but strongman is an even smaller one. Strength athletes usually keep the drugs fairly simple as well and obviously don't need to use the variety bodybuilders do. They may still push doses hard but it's like like they are dieting hard taking t3, dnp and finishing with diuretics. That brings me onto another topic of extreme manipulation involved in bodybuilding and all the dieting and growing and yo-yoing through the years and getting extremely lean means one thing... STRESS on your body. Whilst being big isn't good for you staying similar size through your career is definitely less stress on your body than constantly forcing your body through extreme changes.

I was going to touch on the same thing…..the dieting phase…

T3/clen/ECA……all putting extra stress on the heart. Higher heart rate, vasoconstriction, on top of androgens and hgh…..LVH incoming.

But now we are smarter about it….

Telimisartan for BP management, nebivolol for selective B1 blockage and vasodilator, cialis for more vasodilation……you can really make clen/stims much easier on the heart without loss of efficacy.

I reccomend nebivolol to most of my buddies that want to do clen. Especially with the long half life, no reason to have elevated HR all day. Clen in the morning, and after all your training sessions are finished, pop 2.5-10mg nebivolol (depending on response) to ease the burden of your cardiac system

 

[specter]

1/2 of a cc of 75 mg/ml tren

Math.. sometimes its hard..

 

[juggy38]

AND nebivolol is a B3 AGONIST….=

“In summary, nebivolol, through β3AR, is able to induce lipolysis and promote thermogenic and mitochondrial genes. The induction of lipolysis and the thermogenic program could explain the reduction of lipid droplets size. In conclusion, the lower dysmetabolic effects of nebivolol in humans may depend on its β3 agonist activity and the consequent induction of thermogenic program in human adipocytes.”

Bordicchia M, Pocognoli A, D'Anzeo M, Siquini W, Minardi D, Muzzonigro G, Dessì-Fulgheri P, Sarzani R. Nebivolol induces, via β3 adrenergic receptor, lipolysis, uncoupling protein 1, and reduction of lipid droplet size in human adipocytes. J Hypertens. 2014 Feb;32(2):389-96. doi: 10.1097/HJH.0000000000000024. PMID: 24256707.

 

[Flex500]

I have to wonder if another factor is how bodybuilders regularly have large swings in weight most years. That's something strongmen don't do.

That is a great point. I used to have huge swings (I did not stay as lean as you when I bulked) and I'd compete at 198 and get as heavy as 260 all through my 20's. If I kept doing that in my 30's and 40's it likely would not be great. Even if drugs are still present in decent doses, there is probably something to be said about reducing the swings as you age.

When I spoke with Meadows a few times about this subject he certainly believed it was healthier and you do generally see healthier, more stable bloods, and bp with less weight swings. It's effect on health is probably exacerbated with the guys who pay no attention to health.

 

[marssel]

It’s interesting either the pros pre 2000’s era had way better genetics or the gear truly was so much better (or they’re being low dosed with the truth…pun there)

I think if we all assume top level guys (open guys) are using between 2g-5g as an average and genetic response being the main difference in total amount we probably wouldn’t be far off

The gear as far as name brand pharma was stronger, I know there are guys who didagree, I don’t think they actually took it though bc all the guys I competed with in the 2000s lament the loss of all the pharma out there. The guys before me who had unfettered access to pharma say it even more so. All of that said Wheeler and Efferding are lying here. Maybe like Emeric touts, once you done it 10-20 years low doses allow maintenance of size but winning IFBB shows and coming up the ranks to get a card imo isn’t possible on that cycle. Not even Ronnie Coleman could win shows on low doses and he turned pro natty which I think in modern bodybuilding is a singular event. Maybe some bantam might have done it but I mean among guys ending the night alone center stage any less than a gram of test as a base seems not plausible.

 

[marssel]

That is a great point. I used to have huge swings (I did not stay as lean as you when I bulked) and I'd compete at 198 and get as heavy as 260 all through my 20's. If I kept doing that in my 30's and 40's it likely would not be great. Even if drugs are still present in decent doses, there is probably something to be said about reducing the swings as you age.

When I spoke with Meadows a few times about this subject he certainly believed it was healthier and you do generally see healthier, more stable bloods, and bp with less weight swings. It's effect on health is probably exacerbated with the guys who pay no attention to health.

Yea I was the same stage weight in my 20s was 176-197 off season was around a big puffy 240 bc well Lee Priest and Craig did it so why not me lol. My best two seasons I only got about 20 lbs over stage weight during the winter. I think the stress of losing so much weight takes away from your size and ability to get super detailed

 

[madg]

I'm pretty sure in Flex's autobiography he mentions his first shot ever was with an 18g needle. I couldn't imagine jamming that thing in a muscle.

I shot 3 year with 18g i didnt know it exist smaller needles

Was even doing quads talk about being determined

 

[madg]

Now that's plausible, but the "look good for the beach" cycle to win his show in 2008....
One thing is certain: Flex friggin' loves Winstrol.

All loved winstrol back then

I used to get Genapharm tabs from pharmacy here and it was the shit !!

I have a pic at 19yo on pharma primo and pharma winy and i look like granite


This pic , 300 primo 30 win ed

 

[Doitagain]

I shot 3 year with 18g i didnt know it exist smaller needles

You must have been a human colander at the end of those three years.

 

[madg]

You must have been a human colander at the end of those three years.

Man i met a bodybuilder from spain and when he told me for 23g i felt so reatrded …hahaha

Thank god was only 1 shot a week

I used load all and shoot 1 x week

 

[Doitagain]

Man i met a bodybuilder from spain and when he told me for 23g i felt so reatrded …hahaha

Thank god was only 1 shot a week

I used load all and shoot 1 x week

No Finaplix implant gun in the ear? Son I'm disappoint

 

[madg]

No Finaplix implant gun in the ear? Son I'm disappoint

Im sory dad we didnt have the pellets in greece

But norma deca - bayer primo- genepharm winny - bayer testoviron- norma test e

All in pharmacy no prescription till 2006

Damn thise was the time

Go in oharmacy guy be like @hello sir what i can do for you ?

Hello 10 box deca 20 box primo 3 box wiiny , ty

Damn beat feeling ever

 

[finephysique]

Im sory dad we didnt have the pellets in greece

But norma deca - bayer primo- genepharm winny - bayer testoviron- norma test e

All in pharmacy no prescription till 2006

Damn thise was the time

Go in oharmacy guy be like @hello sir what i can do for you ?

Hello 10 box deca 20 box primo 3 box wiiny , ty

Damn beat feeling ever

I’m going to Greece in a couple of weeks can you buy any gear or ancillaries in a pharmacy now?

 

[madg]

I’m going to Greece in a couple of weeks can you buy any gear or ancillaries in a pharmacy now?

I can .. you not

If you are in Athens , hit me up i arange all

Can buy all ancilarie and Norma test enan up to 20 amps

More test or other gear need prescriptions beacuse now we joined EU

 

[marssel]

I shot 3 year with 18g i didnt know it exist smaller needles

Was even doing quads talk about being determined

Lmafo my first year in gear was RWR suspension which was so big crystal size I had to draw with an 18 out a fresh 18 on and jam it in my quad by having my thumb hovering the the plunger and using the momentum of the stab to act like a spring. My quads took a beating but I put on 30 of pretty clean weight minus the obvious water. The stuff was so big if you slid it in your body heat would make it clog and no adding water and a dash of oil didn’t help. Helps on every other water based nonmicronized compund but the big pharma vet stuff which I think they use like spring fired 14 gauges and do like 10-20 ml shots so crystal size doesn’t matter there but damn it was good fun. Not so fun I’d do it now but fond memories none the less.