This changes everything!!! Now what??

[PHIL HERNON]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/h...48443200&en=3be6113bf4079495&ei=5070&emc=eta1

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Woooowwww that would explain why endurance work for muscles are beneficial to muscle growth! We always knew some high rep work (like Platz's marathon squatting for example) was great for growth once in a while, but wasnt quite sure why because you wouldnt be smashing your fibers that have the most potentioal for growth.

So now... we know Mitochondria is increased through endurance training (20+ rep work, or marathon type sets, running, etc...) or intense training (iv always noticed when my intensity picks up so does my gains big time). Now glucose or glycogen is converted to lactic acid which is uptaken and burned as fuel by the mitochondria. The more Mitochondria is increased through endurance/intensity training, the more lactic acid can be utalized at a quicker rate in order to fuel workouts and produce max results.

Interesting.... this definatly gives HIT and high Volume training both great credibility. Personally i prefer HIT high Volume training haha... with enough recouperation time and plenty of nutrients for repair.

 

[zephyr22]

Great read Phil....

I love to hear the truth. The thing is most of us take what we read to be true in books and what not. These people go out and prove or disprove what is the truth behind the physiology of the body. Only if they would do some studys more on bodybuilding and tissue repair procesess. Hmmmm I can hear my doctorate calling me hhehehehee......Very interesting read though.

 

[Triguy]

my thoughts

1. lactate is an INeffiecent fuel source
2. lactate either thru its production or its effects on the body have large drains on the CNS
3. large drains on the CNS weaken our HPTA

 

[jmcbride]

This is a great read. So that nasty burning from all those squats is beneficial. Good post

 

[cryptasm]

So that means that incorporating High rep ranges in your training would be benificial???? Right???

 

[Conan21]

lactate

one of the benefits of increasing lacate is the effects it has on Growth Hormone surges.

one of the best ways to increase lactate is abbreviated rest intervals between sets.

 

[Dave_19]

That is crazy! I have been telling people its a waste product for years. I don't know if this changes much for the average bodybuilder but it shows we still don't have a perfect understanding of the human body.

 

[Hercules]

well

now what?

 

[Koevoet]

my thoughts

1. lactate is an INeffiecent fuel source
2. lactate either thru its production or its effects on the body have large drains on the CNS
3. large drains on the CNS weaken our HPTA

1. Why do you believe that lactate is an inefficient energy source?

2. I have never heard this theory, do you have any source? Lactate is produced constantly by the body, not just during intense exercise. An accumulation of lactate is thought to contribute to fatigue.

3. Source?

 

[BrooklynBB]

Interesting BUT...

This is very interesting, but let's not go off the deep end yet.

We've also been told that Lactic Acid causes the burn we feel when pushing through high reps. But in the first paragraph of the article, the BURN is listed as one of the things that were incorrect -

"Everyone who has even thought about exercising has heard the warnings about lactic acid. It builds up in your muscles. It is what makes your muscles burn. Its buildup is what makes your muscles tire and give out."

Well, if that's true, then what does cause the burn.

Next:

"As for the idea that lactic acid causes muscle soreness, Dr. Gladden said, that never made sense.

"Lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within an hour of exercise," he said. "You get sore one to three days later. The time frame is not consistent, and the mechanisms have not been found.""

I thought the mechanism that was substantiated as causing DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) was microscopic tears in actin and myosin??? I've read this many times - but he hasn't?

Next:

"Mitochondria even have a special transporter protein to move the substance into them, Dr. Brooks found. Intense training makes a difference, he said, because it can make double the mitochondrial mass. "

Does INTENSITY mean more weight or more reps?

And there's some seemingly opposing information here. First the answer is that the intensity needed to increase mitochondria is ENDURANCE exercise:

"Through trial and error, coaches learned that athletic performance improved when athletes worked on endurance, running longer and longer distances, for example. "

But then the article makes the case for BRIEF BOUTS of INTENSE EXERCISE as increasing mitochondira:

"Just before a race, coaches often tell athletes to train very hard in brief spurts.

That extra stress increases the mitochondria mass even more, Dr. Brooks said, and is the reason for improved performance."

That's closer to anaerobic rather than aerobic training.

Here's another article that says feeling the burn is a BAD thing, and that you need to bulk up your mitochondria. It also goes into a little more detail into lactic acid metabolism:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/19_lactate.shtml

Here's a simple excerpt:

"But Brooks in the 1980s and '90s showed that in living, breathing animals, the lactate moves out of muscle cells into the blood and travels to various organs, including the liver, where it is burned with oxygen to make ATP. The heart even prefers lactate as a fuel, Brooks found."

Unreal stuff ... it's sort of like first being told tha chocolate, whole eggs and too fat from any source are bad for you, when in fact they're all pretty damned healthy for you.

Thanks for the heads up on this Phil.

 

[Koevoet]

Here is some more info I posted in an early thread on the same topic.

Lactic acid is created from excess pyruvic acid which is created during glycolysis. Skeletal muscle continuously create lactic acid even while at rest, not just during anaerobic exercise. However, since lactic acid can be created without oxygen it is often referred to as an 'anaerobic metabolism'.

Lactic acid definitely is a fuel that is used in particular by the heart and slow-twitch muscle fibers, in fact lactic acid can move easily between the muscle cells and the bloodstream, and cells can either convert it back to pyruvic acid, which then enters the Krebs cycle to produce energy or it can be converted into glucose or glycogen which enters glycolysis to produce energy. Whereas other fuels need insulin to carry them across cell membranes, lactic acid uses a much faster carrier process called facilitated transport. The majority of lactic acid is removed via oxidation when used by your muscles as fuel, and the rest is converted back to glycogen.

As per its name, lactic acid is an organic acid, and as such an accumulation will increase the acidity levels within the muscles and hinder performance by causing muscle fatigue. This only occurs once you have exceeded you lactate threshold, which is when your energy demands are such that your body is converting so much glucose that it is creating also more lactate than what your muscles can oxidize. Although lactic acid can be created without oxygen, it does need oxygen in order to be converted into fuel for your muscle. So, in order to increase your lactate threshold, you need to increase the body's ability to deliver oxygen, and increase the facilitated transport process by increasing levels of the protein carrier MCT1 which allow the transport process to take place.

 

[nemo]

honestly i don't see how this changes anything, unless there happens to be more endurance athletes on this board than i expected. lactic acid is not used as a fuel source in anaerobic exercise because oxygen is required to metabolize it. if you do endurance training it increases the number of mitochondria in your muscle cells and they will clear the lactic acid faster and use it to create energy in between your sets, but not during the set itself because of the lack of oxygen.

so in summary the better your cardiovascular conditioning the less recovery time required between sets. this does not seem revoluntionary to me

 

[BrooklynBB]

As per its name, lactic acid is an organic acid, and as such an accumulation will increase the acidity levels within the muscles and hinder performance by causing muscle fatigue. This only occurs once you have exceeded you lactate threshold, which is when your energy demands are such that your body is converting so much glucose that it is creating also more lactate than what your muscles can oxidize. Although lactic acid can be created without oxygen, it does need oxygen in order to be converted into fuel for your muscle. So, in order to increase your lactate threshold, you need to increase the body's ability to deliver oxygen, and increase the facilitated transport process by increasing levels of the protein carrier MCT1 which allow the transport process to take place.

The article said this in simpler terms, but I'm glad you wrote this out because I did not know what the specific protein carrier was.

The article simply said that in order to increase the threshold, you need to increase the volume of the mitochondria. Although what we know as "aerobic" or endurance exercise does increase it, the researcher is saying that "anaerobic" intense exercise - although a misnomer - increases mitochondrial capacity even more.

What this changes is the perception of lactic acid being the problem. In fact, the problem is the size of the mitochondria. The mystery to discover next is what exactly produces the soreness / pain / burn that is felt DURING lifting that prevents us from doing another rep - or, at least WANTING to do another rep. Forcing yourself to do this rep will increase the mitrochondrial volume, allowing you to metabolize more lactic acid, and thus growing larger.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

It only backs up the theory that intense exercise to failure promotes mitochondria growth (ability to process more lactic acid) hence improving performance. But, we bodybuilders knew this all along. What is the pain caused from during the exercise? What shuts down the contraction? Lactic acid buildup. You just become more efficient at utilizing it for muscular energy.

 

[Kaiser]

Good thread Phil.

 

[Koevoet]

Prof. Tim Noakes has also found that although excessive lactate buildup is part of the fatigue process, the hydrogen ions created at the same time as the lactate are a larger cause. It is the buildup of H+ in the muscles that cause the acidity and the burn, not just the lactate.

 

[RazorCuts]

It only backs up the theory that intense exercise to failure promotes mitochondria growth (ability to process more lactic acid) hence improving performance. But, we bodybuilders knew this all along. What is the pain caused from during the exercise? What shuts down the contraction? Lactic acid buildup. You just become more efficient at utilizing it for muscular energy.

Phil do you think training to failure is need at every workout? I know your workouts seem to revolve around science and somewhat in the manner of Jones and Darden as far as sets and failure. Darden even now says working to failure at every workout is detrimental and to back off for 2wks after 6 or so.
People like to bash Jones but everything we are now finding out shows a man ahead of his time. Even the ACSM is now changed its views to 1 sets done to failure.
As far as bodybuilding trainers you have to be the premier (with DC) when it comes to backing your routines and diets with science and common sense. The thing is when people wrote me saying DC or Phils routine wasnt giving them the results they were looking for i told them the routine is a small fraction as genetics, diet and supps over rule and they would get the same results no matter who's routine they followed.

RC

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

Phil do you think training to failure is need at every workout? I know your workouts seem to revolve around science and somewhat in the manner of Jones and Darden as far as sets and failure. Darden even now says working to failure at every workout is detrimental and to back off for 2wks after 6 or so.
People like to bash Jones but everything we are now finding out shows a man ahead of his time. Even the ACSM is now changed its views to 1 sets done to failure.
As far as bodybuilding trainers you have to be the premier (with DC) when it comes to backing your routines and diets with science and common sense. The thing is when people wrote me saying DC or Phils routine wasnt giving them the results they were looking for i told them the routine is a small fraction as genetics, diet and supps over rule and they would get the same results no matter who's routine they followed.

RC

I dont know who Darden is, but I do know Jones. I do not train with 1 set, in fact I dont think anyone but my clients know how I train. I dont have one routine, it is a gradual change and the clients that have stuck with me can tell you this. The routine must change until it comes full circle. I think the people who wrote to you complaining about my and DCs routine did not apply it properly or just dont have the guts to train hard enough and want an easy way out. WHy else would they go through all these trainers complaining that they get no results. You know as soon as they give up on your routine that are treating you the same way. I have no use for these types.

 

[RazorCuts]

I dont know who Darden is, but I do know Jones. I do not train with 1 set, in fact I dont think anyone but my clients know how I train. I dont have one routine, it is a gradual change and the clients that have stuck with me can tell you this. The routine must change until it comes full circle. I think the people who wrote to you complaining about my and DCs routine did not apply it properly or just dont have the guts to train hard enough and want an easy way out. WHy else would they go through all these trainers complaining that they get no results. You know as soon as they give up on your routine that are treating you the same way. I have no use for these types.

I agree 100%. The people who are always jumping around are looking for the overnight results and do not give it a full trial. Most who complain about little results usually blame the routine and most of the time is poor diet or just poor genetics and not enough effort put into the routine.
I just wanted to know your thoughts on training to failure on a continous basis from workout to workout.

Thanks
RC