Time to contribute. My thoughts on the "transition"

[notsobig32]

A question for guys who are "on".

If you gave up on aas forever, would your physique eventually shrink to what it would be had you never taken any aas in the first place?

This is a question that I ponder which affects whether or not I'll ever make that transition (although I have tried Superdrol awhile back).

I gave up bb'ing and might have stepped foot into a gym 5 times in 2.5 years. I never dropped below 200lbs and you could still tell that i had worked out. i don't think you body ever goes back 100% to the way it was before you started bodybuilding.

 

[railslave]

gyno this is a great post. id like contribute my thoughts, but i have to meet a friend for some south carolina bbq

 

[Golgo13]

So the debate is:

Should we constantly be analyzing what we are doing and potentially learning better ways to bring the human body to higher levels of performance.

OR

Should we blindly do what the other guys do no matter how wrong it may or may not be.

 

[Dr.S]

So the debate is:

Should we constantly be analyzing what we are doing and potentially learning better ways to bring the human body to higher levels of performance.

OR

Should we blindly do what the other guys do no matter how wrong it may or may not be.

To the overanalyzing bashers --- if an engineer building a vehicle said to one of his co-workers "hey, this new airbag system seems to be ok; no need to test it. Let's just get this thing rolling so we don't slow down the manufacturing process; we certainly don't want to overanalyze"--- would you feel safe driving that car/truck? Yet we're discussing our own bodies, and you don't want to "overanalyze"?

I like to see the overanalyzer crowd post their diets, which usually contain less than 10 grams of fiber (many times that 10 grams come from oats, which most people can't digest efficiently anyway--oh, but don't want to overanalyze!)

Some folks are just to lazy to put effort into thinking/research, so they try to put other down...then there are some who have good genetics and can look great with the lift/eat/rest mantra---these people are going to look great, but b/c they don't put much though into what's going on with their body they are setting themselves up for many health issues down the road.

So many on this board are concerned only with having a certain look--you can look good and be healthy (if you want to be the size of a Pro, there is no such thing as being healthy at that point--so I won't even get into that).

As far as when to take gear; well, except for a few HRT guys, no one really needs to use gear. If someone wants to use gear, they are not going to wait 10-15 years to build a base before hitting the Test.

 

[Dr.S]

to clarify

I remember a while back Dante posted how some of his trainees would stress so much over certain issues and short circuit their gains. Should I have 250 grams of rice, or 252 grams of rice? Should I use 4.5 grams of creatine 5 minutes after training, or 5 grams 4.5 minutes after training?

I agree that if you completly stress on certain topics and flood youself with cortisol, it's counterproductive. Only the individual can determine what's nitpicking vs. unnecessary stress. I do think some people drive themselves nuts with tiny details. However, if you're so inclined to be a "thinker" and you actually like to research---it's not the same as agonizing over how to add 5 more pounds of muscle at any cost

btw--my intent is not to offend anyone, just to give you more to think about

 

[b-boy]

ha ha dr. s although i think some of your post was directed toward me because of my post, i really don't care cause i always enjoy the hell out of your post, I do wish you would post more often. your above post were good and I do analyze and experiment and research but only to a very small degree, as i just don't think bodybuilding is complicated at all. I guess my goal are a lil diff. from the majority of the people on this board, so my method of madness may be a lot different from others, I just don't get caught up with how many muscle fibers are firing when i do this or that, people that are into that hey thats great and do what you do, and i will do what i do and we will all be happy. But honestly when it comes to the pursuit of muscle it all comes down to eat, train, recover, supplement (if you choose), and GROW! you can break that down to whatever sub levels you want but it still comes down to that simple equation! Now how fast you acquire that muscle comes down to how effective you do those things above and this brings into a lot of finding what works for you and experimenting to find the fastest route, but in the end in time you will still get there.

when i joined this board research was the name of the game for me, I just sat and read old post and wore the hell out of the search button, but at the end I always found myself reading more of phil hernon and dante's post because they made me realize that this sport really isn't that complicated, and they broke everything down in simple effective terms. I found that i was truly overanalyzing everything about this sport and the more post I read from them the dumber i felt till finally my overthinking brain got it. hard work and consistancy will always win out in the end, don't throw caution to the wind just for the pursuit of muscle and heavy slag iron builds muscle in the shortest amount of time, cause you force and will your body to produce muscle due to the extreme stimuli you are putting on it. just really simple shit like that.

 

[Lenny]

ha ha dr. s although i think some of your post was directed toward me because of my post, i really don't care cause i always enjoy the hell out of your post, I do wish you would post more often. your above post were good and I do analyze and experiment and research but only to a very small degree, as i just don't think bodybuilding is complicated at all. I guess my goal are a lil diff. from the majority of the people on this board, so my method of madness may be a lot different from others, I just don't get caught up with how many muscle fibers are firing when i do this or that, people that are into that hey thats great and do what you do, and i will do what i do and we will all be happy. But honestly when it comes to the pursuit of muscle it all comes down to eat, train, recover, supplement (if you choose), and GROW! you can break that down to whatever sub levels you want but it still comes down to that simple equation! Now how fast you acquire that muscle comes down to how effective you do those things above and this brings into a lot of finding what works for you and experimenting to find the fastest route, but in the end in time you will still get there.

when i joined this board research was the name of the game for me, I just sat and read old post and wore the hell out of the search button, but at the end I always found myself reading more of phil hernon and dante's post because they made me realize that this sport really isn't that complicated, and they broke everything down in simple effective terms. I found that i was truly overanalyzing everything about this sport and the more post I read from them the dumber i felt till finally my overthinking brain got it. hard work and consistancy will always win out in the end, don't throw caution to the wind just for the pursuit of muscle and heavy slag iron builds muscle in the shortest amount of time, cause you force and will your body to produce muscle due to the extreme stimuli you are putting on it. just really simple shit like that.

B-Boy, I used and worn that search button down just learn, gain persective, and just see what others were doing before I began to post (not that I do not make a stupid post every here and there...try my best not too), but you are right at the end of the day in its simplest terms...they all pretty much stated you must train hard, eat to grow, and recover to rebuild! I think it is cool to see how many others go about things, but we know muscles will fire from all cylinders when stimulated, protein is the building blocks, and recovery is will the body responds to all of this...well of course supplements if you utilize them.

But, I do enjoy your not BS posts because you keep it real and simple for us all! Walking the walk so to speak, not that no one else does that as assume if you are bodybuilding I hope you are maximizing, but that is what I take from your posts....I enjoy reading them and learn from them as well!

 

[gyno]

good discussion guys. Although, I do feel some of you guys might have taken it in the wrong direction. To sum it up, this is pretty much the point

1. learn your body
2. You don't have to be 100% sure you've reached your genetic potential, but you better feel like you've exausted all of your other options.
3. Once you have decided to take on the responsibility of self-medicating, approach it like you would creatine (please dont highlight this and go crazy over it), in the sense that it's not the be all and end all. Gear should supplement your sound training and nutrition, not be your foundation.
4. If you fail to do that you will forever be evaluating your juice regimen, trying different stacks and compounds instead of realizing "hey, my squat sucks, maybe THATS why I can't bring my legs up" Lol.

 

[Dr.S]

ha ha dr. s although i think some of your post was directed toward me because of my post, i really don't care cause i always enjoy the hell out of your post, I do wish you would post more often. your above post were good and I do analyze and experiment and research but only to a very small degree, as i just don't think bodybuilding is complicated at all. I guess my goal are a lil diff. from the majority of the people on this board, so my method of madness may be a lot different from others, I just don't get caught up with how many muscle fibers are firing when i do this or that, people that are into that hey thats great and do what you do, and i will do what i do and we will all be happy. But honestly when it comes to the pursuit of muscle it all comes down to eat, train, recover, supplement (if you choose), and GROW! you can break that down to whatever sub levels you want but it still comes down to that simple equation! Now how fast you acquire that muscle comes down to how effective you do those things above and this brings into a lot of finding what works for you and experimenting to find the fastest route, but in the end in time you will still get there.

when i joined this board research was the name of the game for me, I just sat and read old post and wore the hell out of the search button, but at the end I always found myself reading more of phil hernon and dante's post because they made me realize that this sport really isn't that complicated, and they broke everything down in simple effective terms. I found that i was truly overanalyzing everything about this sport and the more post I read from them the dumber i felt till finally my overthinking brain got it. hard work and consistancy will always win out in the end, don't throw caution to the wind just for the pursuit of muscle and heavy slag iron builds muscle in the shortest amount of time, cause you force and will your body to produce muscle due to the extreme stimuli you are putting on it. just really simple shit like that.

well I'm kind of trapped in the house lately so I've been posting more. I think we are kind of on the same page. Your physique shows your approach to bb'ing works well. My main concern is some people take the "keep it simple" approach to the point they neglect their health. If you're going to build a large amount of muscle, keep in mind it can have a big time negative effect on health down the road. Things like getting enough fiber, not going crazy eating lots of sugar/too many carbs....and supplementing with vits/herbs that have a postiive effect on overall health and well being (not just muscle building).

B-Boy, I'm not saying you don't care about your health. I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of folks on this board that take the K.I.S.S principles and apply them to only muscle building while neglecting other factors (years ago I was one of those people---I'm hoping to help others learn from my mistakes)

 

[Chrysler]

I think one thing the online bbing community really lacks is the ability to apply the scientific method.

I'm all about that. I always find it funny when guys complain about not getting bigger and then I find out they go to the bar every weekend and get fucked up. Well, duh!

Good thread.

 

[Lenny]

I'm all about that. I always find it funny when guys complain about not getting bigger and then I find out they go to the bar every weekend and get fucked up. Well, duh!

Good thread.

I totally agree...that was 90% of my Kinesiology class back in college and half of them never set foot in the weight room. They could ace a test, but couldn't complete a workout...well I passed all my tests and loved to trained in the gym on a weekly basis too...yes I went out a few times too

Simple exercise science and applying it make sense to me...oh yeah and all the guys wanted to get big and ripped...work ethic my friends is one of the biggest aspects of it all!

 

[DatBtrue]

sorry bro, don't understand the roll eyes thing, if you want to say something please by all means just say it, im a big boy, i can handle it

Okay.

Let me give you an example of where YOU were scientifically-minded and correct in being so. You posted not to long ago about increasing androgen receptor activity which meant you didn't need to use as much steroids.

Recently I did the same thing in my thread with another compound. That is science...

Taking a look at the last few discussions in my science thread the topics include:

- Body sculpting 101 (i.e. w/o steroids)

- a study "Cardiac Lesions Induced by Testosterone: Protective Effects of Dexrazoxane and Trimetazidine"

- the fact that most amino acid products leave out tryptophan which has been shown scientifically to reduce cravings for carbs (because serotonin is a satiety hormone)

- Alternate Day Fasting - Insulin sensitivity & muscle

- Plasma concentrations of LH & FSH w/ weekly test-e administration over the course of months

- Fascia Stretching & Caprylic Acid​

So when I read your post I felt like rolling my eye ...no disrespect at all. Try it now for real... go ahead and roll your eyes... its kind of fun.


I agree with a lot of what is said in this thread. Hobbiests (people who don't compete) make up the majority of people who post or read here and they all seem to think stacks of steroids or GH (because it has the word "growth" in it) will do ALL of the work AND get them to look like you.

But let me ask people like you to post up their genetics. The basics of inducing anabolism available to everybody are fairly simple as are the basics of reducing catabolism.

So posting up your genetics would allow us to see exactly what genetic aspects allow YOU to grow. I'll bet that most genetically superior muscle-mass acquirers have bodies that do a lot more with a lot less.

By-the-way there are a lot of people that come to this board (or at least to the sub-forum) who aren't interested JUST in acquiring muscle. They are interested in health, longevity, healing, body-scultping sanely and they come in different age groups.

There is a big difference beween the older body-builder and the young one.

The young one scientifically is prone to addiction to steroids while the older ones are not.

The older ones NEED to do certain things because protein synthesis is delayed or MGF increase PWO is not as pronounced as younger ones.

Finding something here or there that can help someone achieve there goals from science is a good thing not something to dismiss.

 

[b-boy]

Okay.

Let me give you an example of where YOU were scientifically-minded and correct in being so. You posted not to long ago about increasing androgen receptor activity which meant you didn't need to use as much steroids.

Recently I did the same thing in my thread with another compound. That is science...

Taking a look at the last few discussions in my science thread the topics include:

- Body sculpting 101 (i.e. w/o steroids)

- a study "Cardiac Lesions Induced by Testosterone: Protective Effects of Dexrazoxane and Trimetazidine"

- the fact that most amino acid products leave out tryptophan which has been shown scientifically to reduce cravings for carbs (because serotonin is a satiety hormone)

- Alternate Day Fasting - Insulin sensitivity & muscle

- Plasma concentrations of LH & FSH w/ weekly test-e administration over the course of months

- Fascia Stretching & Caprylic Acid​

So when I read your post I felt like rolling my eye ...no disrespect at all. Try it now for real... go ahead and roll your eyes... its kind of fun.


I agree with a lot of what is said in this thread. Hobbiests (people who don't compete) make up the majority of people who post or read here and they all seem to think stacks of steroids or GH (because it has the word "growth" in it) will do ALL of the work AND get them to look like you.

But let me ask people like you to post up their genetics. The basics of inducing anabolism available to everybody are fairly simple as are the basics of reducing catabolism.

So posting up your genetics would allow us to see exactly what genetic aspects allow YOU to grow. I'll bet that most genetically superior muscle-mass acquirers have bodies that do a lot more with a lot less.

By-the-way there are a lot of people that come to this board (or at least to the sub-forum) who aren't interested JUST in acquiring muscle. They are interested in health, longevity, healing, body-scultping sanely and they come in different age groups.

There is a big difference beween the older body-builder and the young one.

The young one scientifically is prone to addiction to steroids while the older ones are not.

The older ones NEED to do certain things because protein synthesis is delayed or MGF increase PWO is not as pronounced as younger ones.

Finding something here or there that can help someone achieve there goals from science is a good thing not something to dismiss.

Ok i get it! hey great fucking post...... and thats REAL TALK! RESPECT

 

[oldfella]

HAHAHA this has blossomed into a very healthy debate with a fair amount of science thrown in. Love it!

Simple science is what is called for in our world of muscle building. As Dr. S. pointed out along with Dante's theory about stressing and cortisol, spot on! It is the constant worry about nutrition and getting enough of this and enough of that! Instead how about as B-boy, myself and others preach here, just eat and get as close to the numbers as you can without splitting atoms! if your diet call for 400 grams of protein and you only get 395 for the day OMG it is not going to cause a cataclismic meltdown of Nuclear proportions. It is about averages and getting close. What matters most is getting the discipline down to eat when you should, what you should and as much as you should. Train when you should and do not overcomplicate the training, instead adjust it to your body and your needs. Get enough rest to feel refreshed enough to go at it again when you feel you should.

I find Dr. S.'s analogy of the mechanical engineer and our own bodies good, but as I see it our bodies are very complex machines that can be very forgiving of our indiscretions in nutrition, airbag design and the computers that drive them are not so tolerant of mistakes. our bodies adapt so quickly that we can be allowed these mistakes and no real damage done. Make those mistakes on a real machine and the results will be catastrophic!!

 

[b-boy]

HAHAHA this has blossomed into a very healthy debate with a fair amount of science thrown in. Love it!

Simple science is what is called for in our world of muscle building. As Dr. S. pointed out along with Dante's theory about stressing and cortisol, spot on! It is the constant worry about nutrition and getting enough of this and enough of that! Instead how about as B-boy, myself and others preach here, just eat and get as close to the numbers as you can without splitting atoms! if your diet call for 400 grams of protein and you only get 395 for the day OMG it is not going to cause a cataclismic meltdown of Nuclear proportions. It is about averages and getting close. What matters most is getting the discipline down to eat when you should, what you should and as much as you should. Train when you should and do not overcomplicate the training, instead adjust it to your body and your needs. Get enough rest to feel refreshed enough to go at it again when you feel you should.

I find Dr. S.'s analogy of the mechanical engineer and our own bodies good, but as I see it our bodies are very complex machines that can be very forgiving of our indiscretions in nutrition, airbag design and the computers that drive them are not so tolerant of mistakes. our bodies adapt so quickly that we can be allowed these mistakes and no real damage done. Make those mistakes on a real machine and the results will be catastrophic!!

ha ha damn good to have you back dale! thats what im talking about bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DatBtrue]

Simple science is what is called for in our world of muscle building. As Dr. S. pointed out along with Dante's theory about stressing and cortisol, spot on! It is the constant worry about nutrition and getting enough of this and enough of that! Instead how about as B-boy, myself and others preach here, just eat and get as close to the numbers as you can without splitting atoms! if your diet call for 400 grams of protein and you only get 395 for the day OMG it is not going to cause a cataclismic meltdown of Nuclear proportions. It is about averages and getting close. What matters most is getting the discipline down to eat when you should, what you should and as much as you should. Train when you should and do not overcomplicate the training, instead adjust it to your body and your needs. Get enough rest to feel refreshed enough to go at it again when you feel you should.

Okay.

Training is really fairly simple and yet a lot of people go from the negative to the positive portion of a lift at a point that doesn't hit the target muscle. Take a look at pro videos and look at where the bells are in a shoulder DB press and where the elbows are. Taking the bell to the shoulder because of their limb proportions is closer to ideal then it is for someone with longer limbs. In fact a lot of people probably only need to go to the ear lobe. A 5 foot 6 inch guy has different biomechanics then someone who is 6 foot 2.

So just saying "go train it is simple" doesn't really say all that needs to be said. Really guys can spend 10 years in a gym and never figure out that "peak force is generated at the turnaround & that should always be squarely on the target muscle."

So either science can point that out or some well respected bodybuilder such as B-Boy.

Nutrition.

Sure you can just say eat x amount of protein. But if you don't understand that some amino acids only replenish the local amino acid pools by blood flow (think a final flush/pump set) then you end up eating more protein then you need to compensate.

This may not matter to you or B-Boy because you know your body's so well but I believe that most people have a hard time getting and staying lean. And so for them over eating protein just to hit a number leads to guys getting fatter.

Science can inform them or some respected bodybuilder could do that as well.

The point is you are attempting to distill bodybuilding down to just eat, workout and sleep properly w/o much elaboration or adaptation.

In my opinion what seems to be missing from most people's mindsets is the element of "time".

If someone understands the basic principles and gains 6 pounds of true muscle per year for 5 years for a total of 30 pounds that is good! They changed their body.

People who are willing to do that love this lifestyle and being in the gym and are willing to work because it is a fun hobby ...not drudgery.

But an awful lot of people want to gain that 30 pounds in six months. These aren't people that will make this a life-long fun hobby. These people likely have self-esteem problems and/or expect 30 pounds of muscle to eliminate something negative in their life.

 

[oldfella]

Okay.

Training is really fairly simple and yet a lot of people go from the negative to the positive portion of a lift at a point that doesn't hit the target muscle. Take a look at pro videos and look at where the bells are in a shoulder DB press and where the elbows are. Taking the bell to the shoulder because of their limb proportions is closer to ideal then it is for someone with longer limbs. In fact a lot of people probably only need to go to the ear lobe. A 5 foot 6 inch guy has different biomechanics then someone who is 6 foot 2.

So just saying "go train it is simple" doesn't really say all that needs to be said. Really guys can spend 10 years in a gym and never figure out that "peak force is generated at the turnaround & that should always be squarely on the target muscle."

So either science can point that out or some well respected bodybuilder such as B-Boy.

Nutrition.

Sure you can just say eat x amount of protein. But if you don't understand that some amino acids only replenish the local amino acid pools by blood flow (think a final flush/pump set) then you end up eating more protein then you need to compensate.

This may not matter to you or B-Boy because you know your body's so well but I believe that most people have a hard time getting and staying lean. And so for them over eating protein just to hit a number leads to guys getting fatter.

Science can inform them or some respected bodybuilder could do that as well.

The point is you are attempting to distill bodybuilding down to just eat, workout and sleep properly w/o much elaboration or adaptation.

In my opinion what seems to be missing from most people's mindsets is the element of "time".

If someone understands the basic principles and gains 6 pounds of true muscle per year for 5 years for a total of 30 pounds that is good! They changed their body.

People who are willing to do that love this lifestyle and being in the gym and are willing to work because it is a fun hobby ...not drudgery.

But an awful lot of people want to gain that 30 pounds in six months. These aren't people that will make this a life-long fun hobby. These people likely have self-esteem problems and/or expect 30 pounds of muscle to eliminate something negative in their life.

LOL a much longer winded version of what I am talking about and B-Boy as well. I tend to cut to the chase to simplify things. But Dat, I agree with you. it is simple yes. easy.......well, no. I use the word simple to describe the theory behind the scince. is it easy for all to comprehend and do?........Obviously not. As you point out, many guys go at it day in and day out and never get where they want no matter how long they do it. This really is a good debate and brings some good points into the discussion. I hope we can keep this one alive without peoples feelings getting involved. Thanks Brad and Datb. Both well respected members here with loads of good info. Can we have some more here guys?

 

[KillerStack]

Medical science proves that aas do not, in themselves build muslce!!

Actually scientific studies show that steroids by themselves build more lbm than training by itself. Of course, the lbm could be mostly water but I feel that if you took a set of identical twins and let one take a stack but do no training he would look more 'swole' than the brother who only trained. They are just that damn effective.

 

[oldfella]

Actually scientific studies show that steroids by themselves build more lbm than training by itself. Of course, the lbm could be mostly water but I feel that if you took a set of identical twins and let one take a stack but do no training he would look more 'swole' than the brother who only trained. They are just that damn effective.

Yes this is true to a point. They really speed up the repair process and help keep the positive nitrogen balance required to stop catabolism. Without proteins and training aas will do very little to build muscle. Only prevent the wasting of existing muscle. SO add training, good nutrition to the mix with aas you have an individual that has greatly enhanced healing ability (recovery) and increased protein synthesis thus creating an anabolic effect. Take the two (training and nutrition) out of the equation and you have a lessened effect of building LBM. But yes still increased over an individual that does not train, does not eat correctly and does not take aas.

 

[KillerStack]

Yes this is true to a point. They really speed up the repair process and help keep the positive nitrogen balance required to stop catabolism. Without proteins and training aas will do very little to build muscle. Only prevent the wasting of existing muscle. SO add training, good nutrition to the mix with aas you have an individual that has greatly enhanced healing ability (recovery) and increased protein synthesis thus creating an anabolic effect. Take the two (training and nutrition) out of the equation and you have a lessened effect of building LBM. But yes still increased over an individual that does not train, does not eat correctly and does not take aas.

They do build muscle without even training. One 28 day study had participants lie in bed in a slight decline position 24 hours a day. They were administered 50mcg of T3 to increase catabolism. Energy intake was isocaloric. Half the participants were given 200mg of test enanthate a week. The steroid group still increased lbm by 4+ pounds! while the group that didn't receive T lost muscle.

Then there was the study that compared weight lifters on no steroids and non-lifters who received testosterone. The testosterone group increased their muscle mass way more than the training group!

Steroids will increase muscle mass with no training.