Time to contribute. My thoughts on the "transition"

[gyno]

Ok guys, I'm just going to outline a few things that I believe to be true. Feel free to disagree/debate, whatever.

I firmly believe (and I'm not really unique in this), that athletes should reach their full potential naturally before moving towards super supps. Why? Problably not for the same reasons one might assume. I really think it has alot to do with learning your body. Taking the time to learn how your body responds to:

Diet
1) carbs, and all the different ways one would choose to utilize them. i.e. kinds of carbs, timing, etc.
2) different kinds of food. Do you have any food allergies?

Training
1) WHat kind of recoup abilities did mom and dad leave you with?
2) What do you enjoy, what works, and how can you combine them?

These are just a few things, I really don't feel like typing up a book. lol.

Basically, I think a person needs to learn how to become the largest land mammal possible using food and training. If you can set some reasonable size/strength/conditioning goals for yourself and reach them consistantly (because you've learned your body well enough) than you can move on to AAS.

I think one thing the online bbing community really lacks is the ability to apply the scientific method. It's not difficult. We are talking 7th grade science here guys. Make sure you've established your controls (carbs/protein/weights/training style/supps/sleep/stress/etc.) and monitor them. So that way, when you start dropping weight, you don't automatically point the finger at your training/diet. Has your life gotten 10,000 times more stressful...losing sleep? Well geez, no wonder your gains are suffering.
Correlation doesn't equal causation. Or, more simply put, just because a and b happen at the same time as c does NOT mean a and b caused c to happen...make sense?

If you add juice to an already hectic routine (all things considered) than you are really going to have trouble. Lets face it, you are GOING to grow on your first cycle, even if your diet and training aren't really on point...if it's real, you should grow. Or at least maintain while dropping BF (depending on your goals). Alot of guys grow despite their diet and training, lets get to the point where we grow from our diet and training and AAS is just a "supplement" to an already sound plan of attack.

 

[oldfella]

Ok guys, I'm just going to outline a few things that I believe to be true. Feel free to disagree/debate, whatever.

I firmly believe (and I'm not really unique in this), that athletes should reach their full potential naturally before moving towards super supps. Why? Problably not for the same reasons one might assume. I really think it has alot to do with learning your body. Taking the time to learn how your body responds to:

Diet
1) carbs, and all the different ways one would choose to utilize them. i.e. kinds of carbs, timing, etc.
2) different kinds of food. Do you have any food allergies?

Training
1) WHat kind of recoup abilities did mom and dad leave you with?
2) What do you enjoy, what works, and how can you combine them?

These are just a few things, I really don't feel like typing up a book. lol.

Basically, I think a person needs to learn how to become the largest land mammal possible using food and training. If you can set some reasonable size/strength/conditioning goals for yourself and reach them consistantly (because you've learned your body well enough) than you can move on to AAS.

I think one thing the online bbing community really lacks is the ability to apply the scientific method. It's not difficult. We are talking 7th grade science here guys. Make sure you've established your controls (carbs/protein/weights/training style/supps/sleep/stress/etc.) and monitor them. So that way, when you start dropping weight, you don't automatically point the finger at your training/diet. Has your life gotten 10,000 times more stressful...losing sleep? Well geez, no wonder your gains are suffering.
Correlation doesn't equal causation. Or, more simply put, just because a and b happen at the same time as c does NOT mean a and b caused c to happen...make sense?

If you add juice to an already hectic routine (all things considered) than you are really going to have trouble. Lets face it, you are GOING to grow on your first cycle, even if your diet and training aren't really on point...if it's real, you should grow. Or at least maintain while dropping BF (depending on your goals). Alot of guys grow despite their diet and training, lets get to the point where we grow from our diet and training and AAS is just a "supplement" to an already sound plan of attack.

IN BOLD, This is where the bbing community went wrong, applying too much science to a basic given.........train right, eat right, rest well and you will grow bigger and stronger. Add aas to this and just intensify the three constants and it will happen a bit faster. That is all!!

 

[617ricky]

In an ideal world, this is how people would approach AAS, but unfortunately most don't.. My favorite part was this, haha.

I think a person needs to learn how to become the largest land mammal possible using food and training.

 

[gyno]

IN BOLD, This is where the bbing community went wrong, applying too much science to a basic given.........train right, eat right, rest well and you will grow bigger and stronger. Add aas to this and just intensify the three constants and it will happen a bit faster. That is all!!

I see what you're saying old fella, and I think we are on the same page. I was merely talking about the ability to look at what your doing and examine it to know if that is truly what is going on. For instance, a guy finally gets his squat to start going up. He gives the credit to supplementing with BCAA inbetween meals. Well, if he would have looked objectively, he would see that he also began to focus more on his posterior chain strength, which will ALWAYS yield a better squat after having been neglected. Undoubtedly the simplistic approach is great, but we all reach points where we must figure out what to do to move to the next level. Alot of guys turn to gear for this, I fear most do it too soon.

Thanks for contributing...

 

[oldfella]

I see what you're saying old fella, and I think we are on the same page. I was merely talking about the ability to look at what your doing and examine it to know if that is truly what is going on. For instance, a guy finally gets his squat to start going up. He gives the credit to supplementing with BCAA inbetween meals. Well, if he would have looked objectively, he would see that he also began to focus more on his posterior chain strength, which will ALWAYS yield a better squat after having been neglected. Undoubtedly the simplistic approach is great, but we all reach points where we must figure out what to do to move to the next level. Alot of guys turn to gear for this, I fear most do it too soon.

Thanks for contributing...

Oh for the most part I agree. Too many use aas too soon, too much and too high a dose without ever touching their natural potential. And all too many use aas for all the wrong reasons. Medical science proves that aas do not, in themselves build muslce!!

 

[b-boy]

IN BOLD, This is where the bbing community went wrong, applying too much science to a basic given.........train right, eat right, rest well and you will grow bigger and stronger. Add aas to this and just intensify the three constants and it will happen a bit faster. That is all!!

Amen brother! great post! I have seen a lot of threads lately with all this complicated mumbo jumbo that just makes my head spin, i have been trying like hell not to post in those, cause i just feel like damn just eat, lift, recover, grow. I go in the gym lift some heavy ass weights, eat, sleep and don't think anymore about it. how someone can break down lifting to such degree's is great if your a college professor, but damn it just makes my head spin and kinda chuckle inside that people really put that much thought into such things.

 

[animal eater]

Damn good post gyno. Personally I didn't touch a needle till I was 40 years and had been training my ass of forever. If you don't know what works naturally how will you artificially?

At minumum I always believe a person has no business using AAS untill they have a good 5-10 years of hard training behind them and should be able to do double bodyweight on squats, benches and deads. Naturally they need to be old enough pyhsiologically and emotionally. That's my 2 cents.

 

[b-boy]

and yes gyno i agree with alot in your original post. good post bro!!!!

 

[Lenny]

Yes, we do overcomplicate things, overthink things too much...shit I am a victom of it, but at the end of the day I know hard training, a sound eating approach (damn weekend, I feel I can eat a house), and basic recovery principles play the biggest role. I think I am just more interested on how others do things just because it is unique how we all respond differently to eating and training...yes super supps are talked about way too much...do this, do that, but come on with it all, they are what they are. We know they have thier place in the BB community, but be smart about it. Know your numbers both inside and outside...if you chose to do them early, learn from it...people make mistakes, go from that point. If you have not gone there yet...read this post because it was a good post.

Again, I am not your parent, so making choices is upon you and this post makes sense. But, again this is bodybuilding, people want to sprint to the finish line, instead of take a steady pace to the finish line...log your years and see what happens first..then evaluate!

 

[gyno]

Amen brother! great post! I have seen a lot of threads lately with all this complicated mumbo jumbo that just makes my head spin, i have been trying like hell not to post in those, cause i just feel like damn just eat, lift, recover, grow. I go in the gym lift some heavy ass weights, eat, sleep and don't think anymore about it. how someone can break down lifting to such degree's is great if your a college professor, but damn it just makes my head spin and kinda chuckle inside that people really put that much thought into such things.

thats cool bro. Many-o-bodybuilders are slaves to this sport, you're a rolemodel with your work ethic and attitude overall

 

[gelatine]

At minumum I always believe a person has no business using AAS untill they have a good 5-10 years of hard training behind them and should be able to do double bodyweight on squats, benches and deads. Naturally they need to be old enough pyhsiologically and emotionally. That's my 2 cents.

You can get double bodyweight squats and deads in under a year naturally. Most beginners completely neglect them though

 

[oldfella]

It is all a matter of hard work and having the balls to push your limits, in the gym, not the lab! Hard work and discipline were and always will be the way to build a championship physique. You will not build one out of a bottle of oil, a handful of pills and slack habits!!

 

[buselmo]

the main post depends on too many factors...
the way i see it... if you start training at the age of 13, yeah... you'll have 10 years or so to train naturally and experiment with everything to know what suits you. but if you're like me, and you start training at age 21... i'm not gonna spend 10 years to get where i want to be NATURALLY, and at age 31 start using aas, when i could've used aas and hit my "natural limit" within a year or two and built up from there...
besides, how do you know you've reached your genetic or natural limit? you could be wasting 3-5 years of training and dieting when you are already at the limit. you tell yourself "i still haven't tried this method, and this method, and.. etc" when in reality, you are there and nothing will help. you also know that getting results naturally takes a lot more time than when you're "on"... so, trying something new would take 6 months to a year to know if it worked or not. and so on.

I say the choice is individual. you don't have to learn and try everything and reach your limit naturally... you should build a base good enough to compete naturally, yes. but reach your limit? nah. anyone can reach a good competition build (i'm not talking national level or team universe here) in 3-4 years of training naturally if you put your mind to it. that's more than enough time to know if something works for you or not...

the only thing you have to know before starting AAS, IMHO, is to be honest with yourself and say "they help open doors for growth, but without diet and training, you will close most of them"...

and remember, most people on AAS don't want to compete or don't want to be at 4% fat.... they want to be big and strong and look the part at 15% fat, or look "athletic" and "use winny to get shredded"... they will laugh at you if you tell them to dedicate their lives to bodybuilding and put all their time, money, physical and mental effort into it for 10 years without the use of aas to look "mediocre", then they should start using aas for another 10 years while still putting all their resorces into bodybuilding so that they could reach the goal in a "correct" manner.

fact of the matter is, a lot of people who use aas on the first day they went to the gym and know nothing about diet and training except for "this protein powder gives you dry gains, and this one bulks you up" are the ones who go up to the high levels competitions and look the best. 90% of the so called "sceintific" bodybuilders are the ones who look the worst... yes, it is genetics... but if you have shitty genetics, enjoy life and don't think about this shit much... don't put a lot of resources into it either... cuz you'll onl look 5-10% better than you would if you actually half assed it.


just my opinion

 

[DatBtrue]

I have seen a lot of threads lately with all this complicated mumbo jumbo that just makes my head spin, i have been trying like hell not to post in those, cause i just feel like damn just eat, lift, recover, grow. I go in the gym lift some heavy ass weights, eat, sleep and don't think anymore about it. how someone can break down lifting to such degree's is great if your a college professor, but damn it just makes my head spin and kinda chuckle inside that people really put that much thought into such things.

 

[b-boy]

sorry bro, don't understand the roll eyes thing, if you want to say something please by all means just say it, im a big boy, i can handle it

 

[Pekkerwood]

Old Fella and B-Boy:

It can't be as simple as that, can it?

I see this same attitude applied in many aspects of business as well as training. People focus on things that can make a half percentage point difference while neglecting or under utilizing the basics that return a higher multiple for effort expanded. "Highest and Best Use" of our time, our energy, and our resources, should be the mantra.

Its like two guys going to race identical cars. One guy takes his car to a wind tunnel does the scientific testing on a new polymer wax to cut through the air better. The second guy goes to the airport and buys a gallon of racing fuel. Who wins? j

Too many people focus on the smaller incremental things that provide a low multiplier for their effort. Why? Its easier to discuss this, and feeds the need for some magic secret that separates them from the pros rather than deal with our own shortcomings. Also its easier to debate milligrams of crap than it is to place your butt under the squat rack and raise that iron from hell to heaven and repeat.

In the words of Ronnie: "Everybody wants to be big but nobody wants to liff no heavy ass weights"

 

[VTliftVT]

Old Fella and B-Boy:

It can't be as simple as that, can it?

I see this same attitude applied in many aspects of business as well as training. People focus on things that can make a half percentage point difference while neglecting or under utilizing the basics that return a higher multiple for effort expanded. "Highest and Best Use" of our time, our energy, and our resources, should be the mantra.

Its like two guys going to race identical cars. One guy takes his car to a wind tunnel does the scientific testing on a new polymer wax to cut through the air better. The second guy goes to the airport and buys a gallon of racing fuel. Who wins? j
Too many people focus on the smaller incremental things that provide a low multiplier for their effort. Why? Its easier to discuss this, and feeds the need for some magic secret that separates them from the pros rather than deal with our own shortcomings. Also its easier to debate milligrams of crap than it is to place your butt under the squat rack and raise that iron from hell to heaven and repeat.

In the words of Ronnie: "Everybody wants to be big but nobody wants to liff no heavy ass weights"

I see what your saying but that analogy is sort of throwing me off. I would correlate the wind tunnel and testing etc with finding out how to eat properly...i mean we can all shove food down our throats but we know if we dont get enough of certian macros...we wont grow. So we find out what macros are best...that is one of the basics of bodybuilding and yes...it is somewhat of a science type trial and it needs to be. You have to figure out what works for you to grow and that includes how much food and what type to eat. That will also include finding out HOW to lift. You can go move heavy weight but if your using all shoulders on your bench then you wont grow your chest etc..you get my point. Also includes not being a dumbass and trying to lift heavier weight than you can possibly ever dream of moving safely with good form....how can you win a race if you DQ yourself before you get anywhere?!

The racing fuel also makes me think of one thing...super sups. If you dont know how to drive your ass around a track with 87 octane then no amount of racing fuel will get you across the finish line...

I do agree we all overthink a lot of things however and sometimes we should remember and revisit the basics.

 

[donjoy]

Too many people focus on the smaller incremental things that provide a low multiplier for their effort. Why? Its easier to discuss this, and feeds the need for some magic secret that separates them from the pros rather than deal with our own shortcomings. Also its easier to debate milligrams of crap than it is to place your butt under the squat rack and raise that iron from hell to heaven and repeat.

I agree, and I think you are dead on about there being an abundance of people who have yet to figure out the part about getting under the squat rack before they start debating how many iu's of slin they need. However, that being said, I think there are plenty of people on this board who have nailed down the fundamentals and do have a right to discuss the subtle nuances.

I can say personally that I have not missed a week of training in the past 6 almost 7 years, and I think it has paid off for my physique. While I would like to think that at 24 years of age, I understand the foundation of building muscle, I think I still have lots to learn before I have the right to debate milligrams (especially considering I have not used AAS and therefore have no anecdotal evidence to offer).

But... before we write off the rigorous discussion of the little things, for the people that have reached that level, I think there is a great deal of merit in those debates. It's true that any single issue is never going to be the "secret." However, if you aggregate all of those small things there are likely big differences to be made. The frustration for people like b-boy, is that people will not heed his advice about moving heavy slag iron, especially when vets like b-boy have put in that kind of work to know its effectiveness. At the same time I enjoy reading Dat's posts because I feel like we at PM get to learn sometime even if just for learning's sake. My head spins like most people when reading posts like that, but even if I only pull out one or two caveats it is still worthwhile. PM gives us the best of both worlds and it should stay that way. The idiots will always be around to ignore good advice regardless of what form it takes.

 

[btech]

A question for guys who are "on".

If you gave up on aas forever, would your physique eventually shrink to what it would be had you never taken any aas in the first place?

This is a question that I ponder which affects whether or not I'll ever make that transition (although I have tried Superdrol awhile back).

 

[b-boy]

A question for guys who are "on".

If you gave up on aas forever, would your physique eventually shrink to what it would be had you never taken any aas in the first place?

This is a question that I ponder which affects whether or not I'll ever make that transition (although I have tried Superdrol awhile back).

if you continue to eat good and lift hard you will never go down to the size you originally were, you won't keep all the muscle but you will keep muscle!!! i have said it a million times........
1. nutrition
2. training
3. recovery
4. gear

number 4(gear) will enhance 3 and 2 but 1 will enhance all the rest. ok well 4 will enhance 1 to a degree (PTOR)