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Turn me off to tren

Kaladryn

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The only way that anyone (Victor Black or whoever) could make the argument against its being androgenic is if he's using the definition that it's not a substrate for 5alpha-reductase, ie not converted to more potent androgens in the scalp/prostate. Is that what he's trying to say, or is he saying it simply does not produce androgenic sides, ie: masculinizing effects in women. Because the former is (for the broader community) pedantry and the latter is idiocy.
It causes severe prostate issues for many people as well even though it doesn't convert to DHT. Several people I know have had leaking prostate fluid while having bowel movements from tren, it's a common side effect.
 

Bio

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Whenever you've had this happen have you ever gotten lab work? eGFR? Creatinine? I ask because Im seriously curious if being able to feel it before it shows up on bloodwork is if at all possible.

Ive had my share of drinking without the same long AAS history but never noticed anything like you are mentioning but I am keeping a note and keeping it in the back of my mind.

Have you tried kratom? I thought about this myself but havent gotten quite to that point yet.

BTW good to see you posting. I havent seen you around in a minute although it's possible youve been posting and I hadnt noticed.

Keep in mind that many people who've had renal failure had no idea it was happening until they became extremely fatigued, got checked out and found out their kidney's were failing.
 

Kaladryn

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No one really knows how androgenic or anabolic tren actual is, as far as I know, I don't think any studies have been done on AR activation and cobinding factors that would modify transcription in this way, in fact, I don't think this even could be studied.
 

Type-IIx

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It causes severe prostate issues for many people as well even though it doesn't convert to DHT. Several people I know have had leaking prostate fluid while having bowel movements from tren, it's a common side effect.
Yes, any AAS in supraphysiological (or to put simply >endogenous androgen activity at the AR) will supplant the role of DHT in the prostate tissue.
 

Kaladryn

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When I brewed my own from Finaplix was when I'd get "the cough" the worst. Stayed away from lateral quads because it always coincided with that site for some reason. Maybe due to the increased vasculature?
What did you dissolve it in?
 

Kaladryn

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Yes, any AAS in supraphysiological (or rather >endogenous androgen activity at the AR) will supplant the role of DHT in the prostate tissue.
Yes but no other AAS, at any dose, causes these effects in the people that get them.
 

Type-IIx

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Yes but no other AAS, at any dose, causes these effects in the people that get them.
Wut? Kaladryn man, let's just agree on everything OK? This thread doesn't want us distracting from the point of OP's question. Your physique is better than mine, so you know your shit.
 

Reload

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What did you dissolve it in?
Initially...Dazed secret solution. lol
Animal back in the day had lots to say if you recall about this. Rolls eyes
Later, BA & BB with Grape Seed oil. The standard.
Irregardless what % of BA or BB I used it was always a crap shoot.
I'd say it was about a 20% chance (1 out of 5 injections) I'd get the cough.
Sometimes it was mild, other times it was pure hell.
 

Kaladryn

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Wut? Kaladryn man, let's just agree on everything OK? This thread doesn't want us distracting from the point of OP's question. Your physique is better than mine, so you know your shit.
So my response there, like many of my others, isn't meant in any way negative or as an attack on your statement. I'm pointing out another aspect that is interesting and relevant, and in this case counter-intuitive. I honestly don't know why tren does this, none of the studies on tren seem to explain this effect. I could be an argument for its androgenicity, I don't know...

It's highly strange to me that it doesn't convert to DHT or E2 yet has these prostate effects that are associated with DHT. If I had to guess, I'd say that the concentration of any AAS in the prostate must be limited, so the affinity of the AR must be what causes the prostate to react negatively. I honestly don't know, I'm just stating my experience with the drug and anecdotal evidence from others. Any insights you or anyone else has would be interesting. I'm definitely not attacking your statement. :)
 

Type-IIx

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So my response there, like many of my others, isn't meant in any way negative or as an attack on your statement. I'm pointing out another aspect that is interesting and relevant, and in this case counter-intuitive. I honestly don't know why tren does this, none of the studies on tren seem to explain this effect. I could be an argument for its androgenicity, I don't know...

It's highly strange to me that it doesn't convert to DHT or E2 yet has these prostate effects that are associated with DHT. If I had to guess, I'd say that the concentration of any AAS in the prostate must be limited, so the affinity of the AR must be what causes the prostate to react negatively. I honestly don't know, I'm just stating my experience with the drug and anecdotal evidence from others. Any insights you or anyone else has would be interesting. I'm definitely not attacking your statement. :)
Because as said testosterone and its analogues (AAS generally) do supplant the role of DHT in these tissues (i.e., prostate)

From Bhasin et al (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1105045):

the inhibition of testosterone's conversion to DHT by dutasteride had no significant effect on the ability of testosterone to exert its effects on muscle mass and strength, sexual function, erythropoiesis, plasma lipid levels, prostate volume, and sebum production. Instead, over the range of testosterone concentrations that were achieved (and which spanned the entire physiological male range and extended well into the subphysiological and supraphysiological range for men), testosterone was able to subserve all androgen-dependent functions that were studied herein, including maintenance of prostate volumes, PSA levels, and sebum production.


The net androgen effect in any tissue can be viewed as a function of the prevalent intratissue testosterone and DHT concentrations and their relative androgenic potencies (eFigure 6). In tissues with low steroid 5α-reductase activity such as muscle and bone, intratissue DHT concentration is very low relative to testosterone and can be discounted, and the androgen effect attributed largely to testosterone. In tissues with high 5α-reuctase activity such as the prostate, intratissue DHT concentrations are higher than those of testosterone.22,23,36,37 Administration of 0.5 mg/d of dutasteride suppresses nearly completely intraprostatic DHT formation (approximately 94%)22,23; therefore, we assume that intraprostatic DHT concentrations in men who received 2.5 mg/d of dutasteride were suppressed to very low levels. Even under these conditions of suppressed circulating and intraprostatic DHT concentrations induced by a high-dose dutasteride regimen, prostate volumes and PSA levels were maintained by testosterone doses administered in this trial.


How can we reconcile these findings with those from trials in which dutasteride has been reported to decrease prostate volume and PSA in men with benign prostatic hyperplasia?10,11 The suppression of prostate volume by dutasteride in older men with benign prostatic hyperplasia, when viewed together with the findings from our trial, suggests that DHT formation is important for amplifying testosterone's effect in this tissue at concentrations lower than those achieved in our trial. Indeed, our model predicts that administration of a 5α-reductase inhibitor in men who have low testosterone levels below the activation threshold of the prostate should attenuate androgen effects in this tissue. This argument is supported by the finding that in older men with benign prostatic hyperplasia, the largest reduction in prostate volume with dutasteride is observed in men with low serum testosterone levels.38 However, as circulating testosterone concentrations are increased from physiological to supraphysiological, testosterone alone can maintain prostate volumes even when 5α-reductase activity is suppressed effectively.

Thus far you've said that we can't know how androgenic/anabolic tren really is because we cannot study the real-time 3D dynamics of its interaction with the AR/nuclear transcription and that the effects of tren only occur in persons who took tren so how do we know anything? I can't continue with these fallacious lines of reasoning, but if you do want to have a conversation start a thread on something interesting bro.

Yes the above applies to trenbolone also (with particular consideration of its relative androgenic potency and concentration).
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Holy smokes! If I ever got something like that. That would be the day I throw it in the trash and say goodbye to tren forever! I've had a mild hacking cough for a few minutes and I've tasted a metallic taste in my mouth. But I've gotten that reaction with other injectables as well just not quite so pronounced. I always just assumed it was due to solvents or the breakage of smaller capillaries in the muscle where the solution entered the bloodstream directly (not good). Often those experiences were accompanied by rather heavy bleeding afterwards and a burning sensation at the pin. All of which pass in a few moments. Definitely unpleasant though.

This might make a good case for a 10mg then 20mg subq inj Mon-Fri protocal vs the more standard 50mg then 100mg IM inj MWF.
Why are you guys mentioning solvents in regards to tren cough? Do you mean residual solvents from the synthesis process or the bb/ba brewing solvents? Without going into detail, the latter is the same for tren as it is for test....
 

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I agree. I personally never got the cough from anything other than Tren A (a few times Tren E) so it must be something in Tren itself?
I know this has been discussed here ad nauseam over the years but you'd think this would be a known by now right?
 

maldorf

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It causes severe prostate issues for many people as well even though it doesn't convert to DHT. Several people I know have had leaking prostate fluid while having bowel movements from tren, it's a common side effect.
I had that. Now my prostate is permanently enlarged and I'm on Flomax med.
 

Kaladryn

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Why are you guys mentioning solvents in regards to tren cough? Do you mean residual solvents from the synthesis process or the bb/ba brewing solvents? Without going into detail, the latter is the same for tren as it is for test....
Some solvents (EO for sure) also cause a 'tren cough' sometimes and many people get an oily taste in their mouth, like instantly on injection. For me I can taste it the instant I inject, much faster than blood can travel, it has to be neurological or something.
 

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Let's face it .. tren is great for almost immediate physique changes.. it just works.. BUT.. even at low doses ( I used to run no more than 150 mgs a week) it usually starts the physiological issues at around three weeks.. no violence.. but rational thought is a balancing act.. jealousy.. snippy remarks.. I attach being slighted to every issue lol.. plus my BP goes through the roof.. I am a guy who believes that every side effect is dose related ( of course) and can be managed by adjusting the dose down etc.. except tren .. once on for a few weeks I can feel the issues starting.. I did a interview one with a 212 athlete when I hosted Blue Collar Muscle.. during a intermission he stated he did 800mgs of tren during prep and it didn't bother him.. wow.. but not me
 

OuchThatHurts

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Why are you guys mentioning solvents in regards to tren cough? Do you mean residual solvents from the synthesis process or the bb/ba brewing solvents? Without going into detail, the latter is the same for tren as it is for test....
Exactly. I've occasionally gotten a temporary mild cough from other AAS as well. With tren, it's pretty obvious that it binds aggressively to just about everything with a receptor on it. It may be the acetic acid (enanthoic acid with enanthate) as a byproduct along with the BA/BB. Finally the freed trenbolone itself. I highly doubt it's the oil due to its hydrophobicity.
 

totalrecomp

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I'm pretty unimpressed with most of what I've heard Victor Black say, in fact, it seems like he is pulling most of his facts out of his ass by making loose inferences from studies with a limited overall understanding of molecular biology.

To say tren is the only steroid that interacts with the GR is a total falsehood, along with most of the other stuff I've heard him say.

This is from a 1975 study:
In his defense he has to be the ABSOLUTELY most miss-quoted guy around on PEDs. People take bits and pieces and only hear half of what he says and then run off and play telephone with "his info." He has never stated that tren was the only androgen that has effects on the GC receptor/system. He also has asked WHERE did Bill Lewellyn get his 5x claim for tren as the all the HA you find on tren show it about or less androgenic, according to that method with all it's flaws but if the claim for 5x is backed by nothing other than Bill writing it then HA are more credible than "just cuz."

This seems to support, at minimum, that tren is NOT 5x as androgenic as test but people will believe what they believe:


 

Drakee

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The only time I ran tren was the first time I ever experienced true Anxiety. Looked amazing though.
 

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