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Which progression scheme for compound movements

flint2017

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Hello all,

Currently intermediate natural lifter and doing push pull legs upper lower routine for the goal of gaining mass and strength

so the question is which will be good progression template for progress on all 4 compound movements. ( i know calorie surplus will give u the size)

Wendler 5/3/1 or ogus 7/5/3 ?

Or reverse Pyramid training in 3-5,6-9,10-12 rep range would be better ?


any thoughts, experience or suggestions ?
 

Dens228

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I gained most of my size when I was powerlifting, so lower reps........I think of the first two programs I'd go with the 7-5-3 as I don't see the benefit for size gains from doing 1 rep. But that being said, at 54 years old I'm now paying for my years of low rep, grind it out power workouts.

Soooooooooooooo, I'd go with the third option if you're looking for long term gains with less aches and pains when you're an old man. Plus I don't doubt you can make gains in size and strength within any rep range.
 

IronLion2

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Conjugate method
 

maldorf

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For strength I did really well with the 5x5 programs from powerlifting. I used one designed by Fred Hatfield and it added a lot of strength.
 

td

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5-3-1.

Pick a training max that is light enough that you can get extra reps on the rep max sets. I'd stick with prescribed reps only in deadlift though unless you're absolutely confident reps don't become unsafe with fatigue.
 

lookslikesausage

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Hello all,

Currently intermediate natural lifter and doing push pull legs upper lower routine for the goal of gaining mass and strength

so the question is which will be good progression template for progress on all 4 compound movements. ( i know calorie surplus will give u the size)

Wendler 5/3/1 or ogus 7/5/3 ?

Or reverse Pyramid training in 3-5,6-9,10-12 rep range would be better ?


any thoughts, experience or suggestions ?

had pretty good results with 5/3/1. also a natural lifter and did powerlifting. you can definitely gain size on that template with enough calories and there is a ton of volume and hypertrophy work via the assistance exercises if you choose.
 

brutus69

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reverse pyramid is king. low reps can get u size but why beat yrself up when any weight from 30-90 percent 1 rep max will get u equally as big?
25 reps or 5 reps, dont matter.
6-8-10. 16-18-20, 5-10-15, 20's....same result, and you'll get almost as strong with lighter weights as heavy in the long run.
its just science man.
 

Girth

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Last post is spot on. But the reality is that whichever scheme allows for the most volume FOR YOU, is the one that you would use if size is your goal. That will depend on fiber makeup which can vary from from bodypart to bodypart even for the same person!

That said you then have to keep that volume to a level which your body can support and recover from. That's where and why the drugs come in to play.

Training for strength is still the same but the reps would ultimately lie in the 1-5 range as you are aiming at teaching the body to fire more cells in the same movement. Size is aimed at stimulating and activating as many cells as possible though perhaps not using them all at the same time.

Thus training for strength is nervous system based and a learning process of repeats. Size will always require more volume and variety of exercise because it is a matter of fatigue and stimulation of cells.

Conjugate is mentioned which is good but for reasons that differ based on goal. Muscles require longer to heal than the CNS. But that doesn't mean you can only train once a week. More frequent stimulation of the cells allows for faster adaptation and progress but you just have to have temper those efforts with your goal in mind. Meaning you can train legs more than once a week, but how/what you do each day will depend on your goal and the status of the muscle at that time.
 

maldorf

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I always made good progress doing the 5x5 program and then following it up with a couple weeks of deloading. I would then go into a more traditional bodybuilding routine and you find that you are able to handle a lot more weight for the higher reps. You then ride that out until gains slow down or stop and then do another 5x5. Repeat.
 

juggy38

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I find my 8 RM and then program that into my 7s wendler % then calculate 5 and 3.

Works well, and I also do “first set last” to get an extra work set in
 

tokon

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Last post is spot on. But the reality is that whichever scheme allows for the most volume FOR YOU, is the one that you would use if size is your goal. That will depend on fiber makeup which can vary from from bodypart to bodypart even for the same person!

That said you then have to keep that volume to a level which your body can support and recover from. That's where and why the drugs come in to play.

Training for strength is still the same but the reps would ultimately lie in the 1-5 range as you are aiming at teaching the body to fire more cells in the same movement. Size is aimed at stimulating and activating as many cells as possible though perhaps not using them all at the same time.

Thus training for strength is nervous system based and a learning process of repeats. Size will always require more volume and variety of exercise because it is a matter of fatigue and stimulation of cells.

Conjugate is mentioned which is good but for reasons that differ based on goal. Muscles require longer to heal than the CNS. But that doesn't mean you can only train once a week. More frequent stimulation of the cells allows for faster adaptation and progress but you just have to have temper those efforts with your goal in mind. Meaning you can train legs more than once a week, but how/what you do each day will depend on your goal and the status of the muscle at that time.

good advice!
 

HONGOGRIMES

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Hello all,

Currently intermediate natural lifter and doing push pull legs upper lower routine for the goal of gaining mass and strength

so the question is which will be good progression template for progress on all 4 compound movements. ( i know calorie surplus will give u the size)

Wendler 5/3/1 or ogus 7/5/3 ?

Or reverse Pyramid training in 3-5,6-9,10-12 rep range would be better ?


any thoughts, experience or suggestions ?

as it was with the ogus 753, I want to try it
 

Dancho

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Hello all,

Currently intermediate natural lifter and doing push pull legs upper lower routine for the goal of gaining mass and strength

so the question is which will be good progression template for progress on all 4 compound movements. ( i know calorie surplus will give u the size)

Wendler 5/3/1 or ogus 7/5/3 ?

Or reverse Pyramid training in 3-5,6-9,10-12 rep range would be better ?


any thoughts, experience or suggestions ?


all programs can/will give you mass and strength. with that being said reverse pyramid will give you more mass. wendler will give you more strength. but wendler train muscle group at least twice a week here, less reps, low volume, you will recover if strength is what you are after.
 

Kaladryn

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Anything below 5-6 reps (without a spot) is not ideal for hypertrophy IMO and just promotes injury. I never do more than one 'heavy' set and never more than two sets to failure per exercise. How you feel the muscle matters more than anything when it comes to growth.
 

maldorf

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Anything below 5-6 reps (without a spot) is not ideal for hypertrophy IMO and just promotes injury. I never do more than one 'heavy' set and never more than two sets to failure per exercise. How you feel the muscle matters more than anything when it comes to growth.

I do think though that if you are trying to build strength that doing more of a powerlifting type program for 8 weeks or so is good once in awhile because it allows you to build a lot more strength faster than the bodybuilding approach. Then once you are done you take that strength into the bodybuilding routine and reap the benefits of being able to pump out sets with more weight. Periodization works. I used that approach both on the juice and off and it worked for me.
 

Dave Perez

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There is a simple old school philosophy...the stronger you get the bigger you get!...do a 5x5 routine for main lifts followed by 10 reps on accessory movements...for example when benching go 135x10 then 225x5, 275x5, 315 3x5 followed by incline dbell flyes for 10 reps...
Do the same for squats followed by sets of 10 on extensions and leg curls...simple but effective...
 

danieltx

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There is a simple old school philosophy...the stronger you get the bigger you get!...do a 5x5 routine for main lifts followed by 10 reps on accessory movements...for example when benching go 135x10 then 225x5, 275x5, 315 3x5 followed by incline dbell flyes for 10 reps...
Do the same for squats followed by sets of 10 on extensions and leg curls...simple but effective...

That only works IF - and this is a huge IF - you're making the muscles do the work.

To simply say stronger = bigger is misleading and causes people to spend years getting stronger without corresponding increases in muscle mass.

People get stuck on training MOVEMENTS, not MUSCLES, but think because they're getting stronger the muscles will come. It doesn't work like that.

If you don't feel the target muscle squeeze and stretch, it's not going to grow. Period.
 

Dens228

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There is a simple old school philosophy...the stronger you get the bigger you get!...do a 5x5 routine for main lifts followed by 10 reps on accessory movements...for example when benching go 135x10 then 225x5, 275x5, 315 3x5 followed by incline dbell flyes for 10 reps...
Do the same for squats followed by sets of 10 on extensions and leg curls...simple but effective...
That works great but you won't be able to just keep getting stronger forever. You need to figure out different ways to stimulate growth.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

raizer

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Anything below 5-6 reps (without a spot) is not ideal for hypertrophy IMO and just promotes injury. I never do more than one 'heavy' set and never more than two sets to failure per exercise. How you feel the muscle matters more than anything when it comes to growth.

Stil using the DY split? With no more than one heavy and no more than 2 max set you mean something like one set 5-9 reps and back off 10-15 reps? How many exercises per bodypart?
 

Kaladryn

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Stil using the DY split? With no more than one heavy and no more than 2 max set you mean something like one set 5-9 reps and back off 10-15 reps? How many exercises per bodypart?

My split is now based on shoulder/biceps recovery limitations, this means I never train anything upper body two days in a row. All this really means is I use a slight variation of the DY split:

M: Shoulders+Triceps
T: Off
W: Back
T: Off
F: Chest+Biceps
S: Legs
S: Off

For my main working set, I don't think I ever go below 10 reps on compound movements, maybe 8 reps on some isolations movements and that is before forced reps. I typically do 1-2 forced reps on my main set.

I may do a lighter set after my main set but I often do not. I actually often do my lighter set before my main set, a typical pyramid type progression, but this is only for injury prevention reasons, so I can't go as heavy on my main set. More and more I just stick with strict HIT only one set though and it works.

This is from the point of view of a 46-year-old who has been lifting for 30 years and is focused on injury prevention first and size second. I'd go down to 4-5 reps (plus forced reps, 7-8 total) if I was in my 20s.

I do 5 exercises for back, 4 for chest, 4 for triceps (don't know why), 3 for biceps, 3-4 for quads, 2-3 for hamstrings, 3 for calves, 2 front delts/2 side delts, 4 for forearms.
 

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