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Which steroids cause the most joint pain?

Which AAS cause the most tendon or joint paint? (Select upto 3)


  • Total voters
    81
This is from Molecular features of sexual steroids on cartilage and bone

It is a good primer for perspective of the balance and activities of sex hormones in bone and joint tissues. Knock this out of balane and you essentially have a disease state. i.e. our joint pain.

HORMONES ACTING ON CARTILAGE AND BONE FORMATION

Several factors act on bone cells during their differentiation, such as circulating molecules, hormones (parathyroid hormone - PTH, growth hormone - GH, progestogens, and androgens) or non-hormonal molecules (1,25 dihidrocholecalciferol, insulin-like growth factors types 1 and 2 - IGF 1 and 2), locally produced molecules with autocrine/paracrine action (IGF1 and 2, bone morphogenetic protein - BMP, prostaglandin E2 -PGE2, interleukin 1 - IL1, tumor necrosis factor - TNF-α, granulocyte macrophage colony-stimulating factor - GM-CSH, transforming growth factor β - TGFβ, basic fibroblast growth factor 2 - BFGF2), and molecules present in the bone extracellular matrix (FGF2, TGFβ, GM-CSF, IGF1 and 2); they are inactive when bound to bone extracellular matrix (BEM) constituent molecules, but active on bone cells when BEM breakdown takes place. Quiescent osteoblasts regulate the osteoclast access, but under the action of bone-reabsorbing factors (PTH, dihidrocholecalciferol, and PGE2), osteoblasts retract and give place to the osteoclasts, which can adhere to the extracellular matrix. Vitamin D and PTH stimulate osteoclast activity, whereas calcitonin inhibits it. Oncogenes cfos and c-myc are expressed in osteoblast proliferation5,6.

Cartilage growth regulation is complex and is under hormone action - growth hormone, IGF1 and 2, estrogens, and androgens, but also a number of locally produced factors (FGF2, TGFb, epidermal growth factor [EGF], platelet-derived growth factor [PDGF])5.

Estrogens act by hastening chondrocyte proliferation, and the androgen action on cartilage is ensured by the activation of estrogen receptors, as the androgens synthesized by gonads penetrate the chondrocytes, where they are transformed into estrogens by the enzyme aromatase7,8.

The peptide related to the parathyroid hormone (PTHrP) is synthesized in a number of bone cells in the epiphysis, in contrast with its receptor, present only in the epiphyseal plate in the transition zone among proliferating and hypertrophic chondrocytes. The Indian hedgehog protein and its receptor play a role in regulating growth and in the differentiation of the epiphyseal plate. Indian hedgehog is identified in prehypertrophic chondrocytes and acts on perichondrium cells expressing its receptor. Indeed, the receptor activation determines an increase in PTHrP secretion by perichondrium cells. There is a regulation loop: chondrocytes at the resting region (preproliferation) cause PTHrP synthesis via Indian Hedgehog, acting on epiphyseal plate chondrocytes and allowing their proliferation8.

Thyroid parafollicular cells secrete, among many hormones, calcitonin, which acts on calcium blood level regulation and calcium storage in bones. The parathyroid gland secretes PTH, which acts on bones, kidneys, and intestines in order to maintain the interstitial fluid calcium level balanced. In the bone, PTH is bound to receptors in the osteoblasts, signaling for an increased secretion of osteoclast stimulating factor by the cells9.



SEXUAL STEROIDS

Sexual hormones are steroids interacting with androgen and estrogen receptors in vertebrates. Natural sexual steroids are produced by gonads (ovaries and testicles), by adrenals, or by conversion from other sexual steroids. Sexual steroids play important roles by inducing bodily changes known as primary sexual characteristics and secondary sexual characters10.



PROGESTOGENS

Progestogens are female sexual steroids produced by the menstrual corpus luteum or up to an eight-week pregnancy, when their synthesis is taken on by the placenta. They are parent hormones of the sexual steroids estrogens and androgens and of the cortisone synthesis by the adrenal cortex. At the first stage, the cholesterol molecule is converted into pregnenolone (P5). P5 and other members of the progestogenic steroid class serve as parent hormones for all other steroids, including estrogens, androgens, mineralocorticoids, and glucocorticoids. Progesterone is the hormone that prepares women for breastfeeding, and affects women physically and emotionally, preparing her for a pregnancy. Many women who are progesterone-deficient can have amenorrhoea and recurring miscarriages11.

Progestogens further have many functions, such as the endometrium preparation for the zygote reception and implantation, milk production over breast-feeding, endometrial proliferation blocking, and estrogen predominance balance, with a key role in preventing most common symptoms in the premenstrual syndrome (PMS). In bone tissue, progestogens stimulate osteoblast proliferation and differentiation by stimulating bone formation, thus avoiding bone loss11-13.



ANDROGENS

Androgens are male hormones produced by the testicles and found in small amounts in women. They have many functions similar to estrogens, since they are estrogen parent hormones: they increase osteoblast activity, inhibit calcium removal from the body by decreasing osteoclast formation and activity, and stimulate long bone longitudinal growth at puberty, as well as epiphyseal plate ossification. When this sexual hormone secretion is reduced, the osteoclastic activity becomes higher than osteoblastic activity, and bone formation is potentially reduced6,7.

The main types of androgens are testosterone and androsterone. Testosterone is the main male hormone, produced under the influence of the luteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland, and stimulates sperm production and male sexual characteristics at puberty14,15.



ESTROGENS

Estrogens are female steroids producing the female phenotype, such as physical appearance and sexual and emotional characteristics. They are mainly produced by ovarian follicles and are found in small amounts in men. The fact that estrogens are produced by ovaries, with androgens as parent hormones, make women produce male hormones first and subsequently turn them into female hormones. Estradiol (E2), as other sexual steroids, is obtained from cholesterol. After side chain cleavage, a fraction of androstenedione is converted into testosterone, which, in turn, is converted into estradiol by an enzyme called aromatase. Alternatively, androstenedione is "aromatized" to estrone and further to estradiol10,15.

These sexual steroids have several functions in bone tissue, such as: increasing osteoblast activity, inhibiting calcium removal from the body by interfering and reducing osteoclast formation and activity, and stimulating long bone growth after puberty. They further promote rapid bone calcification, causing it to reduce the proliferation activity until it ceases4,10.

In adults, bone maintenance is due to estrogens because of their antireabsorptive and anabolic effects. In females, osteoclasts have estrogen alpha receptors (ERa), thus these hormones act by reducing osteoclast reabsorption activity; in males, however, bone formation stimulus is mediated by ERa present in osteoblasts16.

The term "estrogen receptor" refers to a receptor group activated by the hormone 17b-estradiol. There are two types of estrogen receptors - ERa and ERb -, members of an intracellular receptor nuclear family, with G protein coupled to GPR30 receptor - GPER. Estrogen and the expression of its receptor ER-a are present in the nucleus and cytoplasm of articular cartilage cells and in subchondral bone, directly affecting bone metabolism during the individual's life. Hormone therapy with estrogens (estradiol and diethylstilbestrol) has been used to inhibit bone reabsorption and prevent bone loss in postmenopausal women9,11,17.



OSTEOARTHRITIS

In Brazil, reported cases of articular cartilage degenerative diseases increase 20% every year, meaning that over 200,000 Brazilians develop joint and bone degenerative diseases yearly. There is an incidence of 35% of cases affecting the knees from the age of 30, rising dramatically with age, reaching 80% of people older than 50 years. In osteoarthritis (OA), the bone mineral density (BMD) is reduced, bone microarchitecture is broken, and the amount of noncollagenous proteins in bone is changed. Bone matrix synthesis dysfunction may occur from excess PTH production and from decreased sexual steroid secretion, such as estrogen, progestogen, and androgen, following menopause; from enzyme action on cartilage tissue degradation, or from vitamin A deficiency, as this vitamin balances the activity between osteoblasts and osteoclasts3,18.

The cartilage matrix, containing collagen fibers and proteoglicans, undergoes constant remodeling by chondrocytes, which are sources of both catabolic and anabolic activities in the cartilage. The catabolic process is mediated by metalloproteinases, such as gelatinase, stromelysin, and colagenase. Metalloprotease activity can be blocked by tissue inhibitors - TIMPs -, also produced by chondrocytes. The chondrocytes, in turn, are subject to biochemical mediator influence, with two groups mainly found, one of them predominantly related to interleukin-1 (IL-1) and tumor necrosis factor α (TNF-α) activity, whereas the other comprises growth factors (fibroblast growth factor [FGF], platelet-derived growth factor [PDGF], and insulin-like growth factor [IGF]). The initial osteoarthritis mechanism is still controversial, but an initial increased IL-1 and TNF-α production by synoviocytes is known, with IL-1 and TNF-α acting on chondrocytes and stimulating the catabolic pathway. As long as the chondrocyte can replace the catabolized material through a compensatory increase in anabolic activities, the disease is under control. However, when their repair capacity isexhausted, clinical disease supervenes. Therefore, OA can be understood as an imbalance in the physiological remodeling process of the articular cartilage18,19.

When the increase in matrix degeneration by chondrocytic enzymes exceeds the increase in new synthesized matrix, cartilages will naturally degenerate (excess chondrocytes create substances that are useful for cartilage replacement, but they also create enzymes that destroy their components). If this process continues, there will be a decrease in the osteoblast number and an increase in osteoclasts that degenerate the joint, causing cartilage loss and changes in the subchondral bone. The outcome is joint pain, deformity, and limited range of movement20.



CONCLUSION

Sexual steroids (estrogens, progestogens, and androgens) are related to cartilage and bone tissue maintenance, thus in postmenopausal women or in those with osteoarthritis, hormone administration should be evaluated.
 
High test for me partially due to pushing heavier weights and the added ego that goes with it (lets not kid ourselves, we all have it in 1 way shape or form LOL)...meaning that with higher test levels, strength goes up drastically and with that, pushing heavier and more damaging weight. Of course winstrol will be there too
 
Winstrol destroyed my joints lol.

But i will say DBOL made them feel amazing
 
I've mentioned this before, but raloxifene (a synthetic estrogen) can help some with the negative joint issues you get with Winstrol. Raloxifene has actually been studied as a treatment for osteoporosis as it keeps things from becoming brittle. It is not a magic bullet, but the difference is somewhat noticible.
 
Dbol makes everything feel amazing doesn't it? Dbol and Proviron would make for great antidepressants.

I have to say that Dbol was my favorite of all because of how it made me feel.
 
Actually by far the worst thing I've ever taken for my joints was Cytadren before a show. It totally zaps your cortisol levels and everything hurts. If you are lean you will look like granite though. Of course I found out later this is the drug that played a big role in killing Munzer.
 
Winny...bad
Dht...to a degree

Both make me feel supper sexy though
 
So... the overwhelming consensus is that Winstrol causes the most joint pain.


Do we know why this is? What specifically about Winstrol tears up the joints?

Random musings...
  • If it is an anti-estrogen effect, wouldn't Masteron and AIs have similar effects?
  • If it is the diuretic effect, wouldn't standard dietetics also dry out the joints?
  • If it is the strong DHT effect, wouldn't other DHTs also have similar effects? (Anavar, masteron, Primo)?
 
So... the overwhelming consensus is that Winstrol causes the most joint pain.


Do we know why this is? What specifically about Winstrol tears up the joints?

Random musings...
  • If it is an anti-estrogen effect, wouldn't Masteron and AIs have similar effects?
  • If it is the diuretic effect, wouldn't standard dietetics also dry out the joints?
  • If it is the strong DHT effect, wouldn't other DHTs also have similar effects? (Anavar, masteron, Primo)?

I think there's a certain placebo effect going on. People read about the connection and then imagine their joints falling apart two days into a Winstrol cycle. I don't hear about this massive joint pain from juicers who do not frequent forums.

As far as a "diuretic" effect, no anabolics have diuretic effects per se. Winstrol like all the rest causes some water retention.
 
Iv never gotten any joint pain from any aas. Most of them make the old joints feel quite a bit better. But winstrol absolutely dried my joints out and I was a squeaky injury riddled guy. 2 major knee injuries. Both while on winstrol. I don’t believe the winstrol joint stuff is anecdotal at all because iv experienced it myself. Killer dry look like no other for me but not worth the injuries I sustained while on whinny. Never more than 50 mg a day.
 
1. Winstrol, Masterone, Trenbolone

Now a few years later, i get joint pain spec on tren, mast and anadrol.
Ive tought it was because tren dries you out, and dries your joint out.

But now i see, its about nerv pain. That come across as JOINT pain.
Thats why people can get joint pain on anadrol and tren. Cause the
blood is pushing on the nerves so hard that it appreres as joint pain.

Im now 6 months post a 7 year benzo abuse. 500mg test gives me joint
pain. Just because it creates pressure with all the blood. Thats how i
understood the relation. So now when i ad anadrol, it gives pain and cracking
from all the pressure.

Think about that guys. Use herbs that relaxes the CNS and see if it help.
For me valium takes away 80% of pain = its nerv / muscle related.
 
I'll join the consensus and say winstrol, it hit's me really bad. I'll only use it for 3 weeks max, just to switch it up during a longer than usual cycle.

A few years ago i did a 10week cycle of only winstrol 100mg/day and proviron(schering) 50mg/day, and felt no pain whatsoever so I don't think dht plays a role.....if anything I think it helped.
 
Last edited:
The Brisbane Spine Clinic

When co-founders, Mr Yu-Tsung (Justin) Lin and Mr Sang Bin (Leo) HYUN opened The Brisbane Spine Clinic, they did so with a vision to create a specialised spinal clinic providing excellence in spinal care to the community of Brisbane. The Brisbane Spine Clinic
 
Winny kills my knees bad
 
AAS have been great for the joints, 25+ more lbs on the knees and they actually feel better! Although when it comes to winni it becomes more like a two steps forward 1 step back kind of thing...
 

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