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Why did "old school" bodybuilders not take Aromatase Inhibitors? Are AI's a gimmick?

Stewie

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yeah one of the smart guys on this board mentioned this


then stewie 'liked' it.. which pretty much means it's true :eek:

Yeah I brought this up a year or so ago.

Don't take your paxil with it tho.
 

LATS

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Yeah I brought this up a year or so ago.

Don't take your paxil with it tho.

Yeah scott Stevenson brought this to my attention a year or so ago.. I know John meadows recommends nolva over the other AI .. My question ( that the studies can't really answer) is how strong a AI is it ? I can't imagine it's on par with , say, aromasin.. My other issue with nolva ( it looks great on paper) is the constant mention of carcinogenic properties.. Thats why I am experimenting with DIM while on my trt .. We shall see..
 

Stewie

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Yeah scott Stevenson brought this to my attention a year or so ago.. I know John meadows recommends nolva over the other AI .. My question ( that the studies can't really answer) is how strong a AI is it ? I can't imagine it's on par with , say, aromasin.. My other issue with nolva ( it looks great on paper) is the constant mention of carcinogenic properties.. Thats why I am experimenting with DIM while on my trt .. We shall see..

It does share dual properties as an A.I/SERM. The issue arises though some of the metabolites may undergo resistance.

There is development of a more impregnable analog of
norendoxifen, 4'-hydroxynorendoxifen in which has a higher binding affinity for ERa and ERb receptors. Activation still has to occur, so binding, regardless of affinity may be null.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...forum/132617-opinions-estrogen-control-3.html
 
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myosaurus

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been hearing claims that Arnold was using IGF-1 and synthol plus PGf-2. is there any truth to this?:D
 

buck

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Anti E's such as anastrozole did not show up till the 90's.
 

upeccmi

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Nolvadex was around since 1967, I knew what it was in 1980, so Dan didn't tell me anything I already didn't know. Everyone I knew was taking Nolvadex with Test in their cycles. We would do HCG and Nolvadex for our PCT. The reason people got gyno, was too lazy to take it or didn't take high enough amounts for the amount they took of AAS.

I remember it as you do, Nolvadex with you test for gyno (if you could find it or afford it) and HCG for pct.
Almost everyone (including me) had their gyno cut out at one point. It was cheap, insurance covered it back then and you never had to worry about gyno again, which was the main reason guys took Nolvadex then.
 

Big A

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I started on Nolvadex in 92, Arimidex in 96 and Femara in 99.
 

lntense

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Its odd when you look at it.

All 70's bodybuilder didnt have gyno. But i dont know what gear they use.

I know they used dbol, but dont know about anything else.


According to Ric Drasin and others from that time the main ones used were deca and dbol.

Testosterone wasn't in the mix so gyno wasn't really an issue. And the deca and dbol was real, and the deca wasn't half testosterone etc.. nowadays there a lot of bait and switch so if you wanted to run a pure deca cycle it can be difficult unless getting from a doctor.
 

MikeS

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Dan Duchaine introduced tamoxifen back in the 80's. Not sure how A.I's came into the scene. Possibly Dan as well?

The first gear-lined board I became a bit active on was MuscleMag, in the grey area forum. That was around 96-97. One of my first net purchases was from a Mod there which consisted of Brovel deca, Omnadren 250 and some tamoxifen.

It's been around for a bit.

Clomid was used in the 80s as well , in Duchaines days. I was a client of his in the mid 80s. I'm 58yo. Dont remember if clomid was on his list, but I think it was.
I was always my thinking to use just barely enough AIs or SERMS...especially in the case of AIs where you can get some unhealthy sides.
I have always used clomid post cycle EveryDay...for its LH effect, and I am on high dose HRT now and use clomid year round 2/3x wk. Using about 600-800mg test, I never get gyno and my nads are never shrunken up. In fact during my bloodwork my Estrodiol levels were LOW...maybe clomid has some AI properties as well because that hard to explain...clomid and nolv are very similar in molecular structure, although somewhat different in effect as I think clomid is best for recovery (LH) and nolv is better fot gyno/water retention. Maybe the clomid has a greater effect on the pituitary, and nolv greater on the breast estro receptors (it and Clomid are actually mild estrogens).
 
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DOGGCRAPP

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According to Ric Drasin and others from that time the main ones used were deca and dbol.

Testosterone wasn't in the mix so gyno wasn't really an issue. And the deca and dbol was real, and the deca wasn't half testosterone etc.. nowadays there a lot of bait and switch so if you wanted to run a pure deca cycle it can be difficult unless getting from a doctor.

One thing to think about is alot of those 60's and 70's guys did absolutely nothing about the elevated estrogen problems.....

.....and alot of those 60's and 70's guys ended up fairly young with heart attacks, bypasses and heart problems.

is it the culprit? Dont know but its there

Padilla
Coe
Grymkowski
Deferro
Viator
Don Ross
Corney
Denny Gable
etc
 

sade

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for guy like me in our early 40's who average about 250 mgs of test a week and nothing else. And yes my Hemoglobin/Hematocrit are always in range as I give blood every 3 months.

Is this your trt dose?
 

lntense

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One thing to think about is alot of those 60's and 70's guys did absolutely nothing about the elevated estrogen problems.....

.....and alot of those 60's and 70's guys ended up fairly young with heart attacks, bypasses and heart problems.

is it the culprit? Dont know but its there

Padilla
Coe
Grymkowski
Deferro
Viator
Don Ross
Corney
Denny Gable
etc

True. There wasn't (near)the knowledge of support supps, getting blood work etc.. back in those days either. There's still also guys dying young today, which you didn't see AS much of in those days I don't feel like. But also there are many more people in this sport these days so I try and take that into consideration and the availability of the drugs.


Someone like Grymkowski with his high doses, it makes a little more sense.
 

Swifto

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We must also realize now that numerous studies cite that nolvadex has AI activities based on the metabolites nolva produces.. So little did these guys know but they were taking AI after all..

Please post the studies or links, thanks.
 

Swifto

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brutus69

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just watched "pumping iron" last week.
i kept thinking,
not one of those guys, not ONE, had even the slightest puffiness, u know that ring around the nipple almost everyone has now?
no one had any signs of gyno at all.
i wondered how that could be. cuz nowadays u see it on way too many guys.
 

Pissbrain259

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Stewie

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Pissbrain259

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It does share dual properties as an A.I/SERM. The issue arises though some of the metabolites may undergo resistance.

There is development of a more impregnable analog of
norendoxifen, 4'-hydroxynorendoxifen in which has a higher binding affinity for ERa and ERb receptors. Activation still has to occur, so binding, regardless of affinity may be null.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...forum/132617-opinions-estrogen-control-3.html

Now we're talking real nerd vernacular: physical biochemistry specifically Michaelis-Menten pharmacokinetics. Love it!

Since much of what has been stated RE: AI's is collectively precise enough without delving too far into the minutiae ad infinitum, one important bit of info to consider is when AI's became legally available to the U.S. consumer. For example, consider the case of the aromatase inhibitor Anastrozole (trade name Arimidex). The pharmaceutical company AstraZeneca (formerly Zeneca) filed an Investigational New Drug (IND) application for Anastrozole in April 1992 so they could initiate early phase clinical studies to assess dozens of basic in vivo pharmacological parameters using small cohorts of healthy adult human volunteers before getting the green light to proceed to larger and FDA-scrutinized phase 3 & 4 clinical trials. Depending on the intended medical use, the latter phases of an IND's clinical trials usually takes at least ~3-7 years to thoroughly complete. In this particular case, upon successfully completing Phase 4 clinical trials, AstraZeneca (formerly Zeneca) filed a New Drug Application (NDA) with the FDA in March 1995 for Anastrozole to be marketed using the trade name Arimidex for the treatment of advanced breast cancer. Arimidex finally received FDA approval in December 1995 for use only as a treatment for advanced breast cancer. Now the pharmaceutical company had to inform U.S. healthcare providers and consumers of their new FDA approved medication. Back then, I don't recall much or any direct-to-consumer TV commercial advertising and we had internet but it was dial-up with an average modem connection speed of 14.4 Kbps or 28.8 Kbps. Those were the good old days of AOL, Netscape, CompuServe, etc.
 

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