your best advice is your own.

Vander_V · Oct 5, 2004

Id like to share this with you , i just wrote this to a friend of mine and my words just seemed to roll out so i decided to post it. Maybe some will think ist BS but thats ok i just had to share it

TIME TO GROW
Sometimes your body speaks to you, if your intune with what your body needs feels and how it reacts to things then you will begin to gain and i mean fucking gain , most people want a quick fix or they want the scale to read 500lbs lol or they think they are ahead of the game or they lift ridiculously to heavy or they think stuffing themselves with food will save them, all these factors and many more only help one lose sight of what he is truley after , ITS about mind power and feeling , not about what a book says or some pRO said NOBODY has ever helped me with my training and im glad cause i simply went on how i felt and what was on my mind for that days workout , its about YOU dude your mind set and if you can find that you will fucking grow . I have gained 20lbs of quality muscle in 1 year? , you might say oh its GH or its AAS ect but NO my friend its about mind and body working as one its hard to explain but let me tell you this i will gain another 20 next yr mark my words , how do i know this will happen cause i know my body i can feel it comming upon me call me crazy man but its the truth , my body wants more and will take me there if i push my limits.

when your mind is becomming a factor your body will follow, DO NOT be surprised if you gain a good amount of muscle in a short period time, INFACT you should train your mind that it is already on its way.Its all about what you can do not what someone else can do for you , go on feel day by day listen to your body , somedays you might do cable excersises instead of barbells , your body will just react to it, many days do i go into the gym and say ok im gonna do straight bar curls for arms then after my first set i dont feel it so i move on to what im really thinking about and hit it. STOP looking for SOLUTIONS or THE MAGIC WORKOUT its up to you to grow and gain.

"Thats why i say Think and Grow BIG"

BigBoyJ · Oct 5, 2004

I think that what you said is 100% true. After years of training, you learn to feel what your body wants and needs to progress. In my opinion though, it's more about feeling with your body than thinking about it with your brain. There's that certain feeling of pump, exhaustion and tightness that lets you know you are doing something right during and after an exercise. That's the feeling I go for.

edge250 · Oct 5, 2004

good post vander, but on another perspective it was dorian yates who commmented about instinctive training..........he said if he followed his instincts he wouldnt step under 500lbs, he would go to the pub instead. not argueing your point, just adding another viewpoint. i think they both have merit.

Vander_V · Oct 5, 2004

edge250 said:
good post vander, but on another perspective it was dorian yates who commmented about instinctive training..........he said if he followed his instincts he wouldnt step under 500lbs, he would go to the pub instead. not argueing your point, just adding another viewpoint. i think they both have merit.

Once again you have seemed to miss the point??? ITS NOT ABOUT DORIAN ITS ABOUT EDGE250 . THAT MAY BE DORIANS THINKING FOR HIS OWN BODY BUT WHAT ABOUT YOURS? THATS WHAT COUNTS EVERBODYS SYSTEM IS FAR DIFFERENT. ESPECIALLY DORIAN YATES LMBO.

DIEZEL666 · Oct 5, 2004

Vander, you make a good point. On the other hand, there are plenty of people out there that will never achieve that "feel" that you have. It is like a having a natural talent in something. I could learn to play the guitar, but no matter how long I play for I will never be Jimmy Hendrix. In many cases being a physical "genious" (for lack of a better word) is more rare than a intellectual genious.

maxsupplements · Oct 5, 2004

its all how you feel

great one vander. its how you feel inside your MIND. if you feel huge and others dont, then to hell with them, you will get there. Mind over muscle would be a great term to believe and think in your mind each time you enter those doors to the gym. its now a batttle , me vs. the wieghts. and time to get it on. its all about the neuromuscular connection. Vander feels it coming on and thats what his body tells him. so what happens? He GROWS. and we all can take him as an example to follow, that we soon can be what we like. its not what some mag says about weighing 500lbs.
thats why i always wear long sleeve t shirts im the gym. i feel bigger than anyone in there and theres no way for me to compare my arms to the other guys, which makes my workouts even better.

Conan21 · Oct 5, 2004

There has seem to have been a trend lately that says instinctive training is wrong. For reasons that Edge 250 just said. I have read Dorian Yates state this and Mike Mentzer. I think this is wrong and in order to make the best gains you need to be an instinctive trainer.

For example, lets be realistic here. I don't think anybody can go into the gym day after day or session after session and be a complete maniac with the weights. you body and mind becomes worn down.

So true instinctive training involves taking into account these factors.

for example, a person goes into a gym at hits it as HARD AS HE CAN for a few weeks, at that point, the extreme training starts to take its toll and the person moves towards the brink of overtraining. At this point, the person must then back off his training, an again the person begins to experience gains and his energy begins to return, however there will come a point in a few weeks were he is moving towards "undertraining" and he will have to rev it up again. and the cycle repeats itself

I think this is what Vander is doing and he might not even realise it. These cycles may happen over a longer period of time like i described or it can be a day to day type deal.

Reading your body is a good thing and Vander seems to be able to do it quit well.

Vander_V · Oct 5, 2004

CONAN AND MAXSUPPLEMENTS
VERY SOLID POSTS , YOU GUYS PRETTY MUCH SUMMED IT UP.

DIEZEL666 · Oct 5, 2004

Conan21 said:
For example, lets be realistic here. I don't think anybody can go into the gym day after day or session after session and be a complete maniac with the weights. you body and mind becomes worn down.

So true instinctive training involves taking into account these factors.

for example, a person goes into a gym at hits it as HARD AS HE CAN for a few weeks, at that point, the extreme training starts to take its toll and the person moves towards the brink of overtraining. At this point, the person must then back off his training, an again the person begins to experience gains and his energy begins to return, however there will come a point in a few weeks were he is moving towards "undertraining" and he will have to rev it up again. and the cycle repeats itself

It sounds like you just read Big Beyond Belief.

Conan21 · Oct 5, 2004

Big Beyond Belief?

Never heard of it

I made that up myself Deizel

MR.BICEPS · Oct 6, 2004

VANDER your post makes good sense to me.

I'm from the old school of high amounts of volume. I was the first guy in my gym to start using less volume and start making gains back in the early 80's.

A while back I stumbled on a routine that increased my strength while on ASS. My strength went up and I felt much more energetic and not so fatiqued.

I performed 5 sets per body part and gave it four days rest before hitting that particular body part again. My split was a MONDAY WEDNESDAY AND FRIDAY routine and the workout only lasted an hour or so.I know that doesnt seem like a lot but I got stronger!!!!!

Now to me it felt like this was undertraining while on ASS but it was perfect for my body when training as a natural. I have struggled with this issue thinking I must do a certain amount of sets and more than when I was natural in order to get the most out of my steroid usage. I'm sure you understand!!!

I see now that my 38 year old body can no longer recover from 1 1/2 hour workouts 4 to 5 days per week.In all honesty I dont think I ever could recover from that type of training for very long... If 3 hours of training a week worked for Dorian Yates it can work for me. My struggle has not been undertraining since steroid use but overtraining!! I know this sounds strange to many but I come from the old school, the days of Arnold doing 2 hours of intense workouts per day.

Ive got to get it in my head once and for all I do not have to do a lot of sets inorder to grow! Its all about intensity and recovery of the nervous system... No more 4 days per week, 24 sets per workout routines for me. I'll do no more than 18 sets per workout 3 days per week. I am now ready to grow big and strong!!!!!

edge250 · Oct 6, 2004

i didnt miss your point at all, everyone responds differently to different stimuli and the body cant go where the mind hasnt already yet been. the whole instinctive training is what i question, you really have to be in touch with your body. some of the best workouts i have ever had have been when i really didnt feel like going to the gym, or felt like i was to tired that day. my instincts were telling me not to train. i've been training hard for 10 years and competed sucessfully, for me i like to have things mapped out. programmed intervals of intense training coupled with short intervals of low-intensity training to allow cns recovery. vander are you still mad about the rear delts comment, lmbo. i just liked yates reply to the topic, i wouldnt expect someone that driven to say something like that.

Vander_V · Oct 6, 2004

edge250 said:
i didnt miss your point at all, everyone responds differently to different stimuli and the body cant go where the mind hasnt already yet been. the whole instinctive training is what i question, you really have to be in touch with your body. some of the best workouts i have ever had have been when i really didnt feel like going to the gym, or felt like i was to tired that day. my instincts were telling me not to train. i've been training hard for 10 years and competed sucessfully, for me i like to have things mapped out. programmed intervals of intense training coupled with short intervals of low-intensity training to allow cns recovery. vander are you still mad about the rear delts comment, lmbo. i just liked yates reply to the topic, i wouldnt expect someone that driven to say something like that.

once again you have missed the point for the 2nd time , Im not talking about the mind set before you enter the gym or your instincts youve seem to have added that into your view on this thread , you have missed the point , i guess you really dont know and thats ok but i hope you find it down the road good luck friend peace .

AWN2004 · Oct 6, 2004

yep....maybe the best way I can relate to this is by remembering the years I spent in the wrestling room. Every summer and most of the year since I was 11, I trained for that sport. My family is from Iowa so I spent many summers in the city wrestling at U of I. I dont know if anyone on here follows Iowa wrestling, but there was a guy named Chad Zapitil who was a 3X runner up at nationals back in the mid 90's. Its not that this guy was not good enough to become a national champion, he was beaten before he ever stepped onto that mat. I was in Ames in 93 when he lost his 3rd finals appearence and he was crushed. Later that summer at an olympic development camp, he actually told us he was mentaly beaten in that match. That was when I started to realize how powerful your mind is. Your body starts to tell you things and how you react can make such a difference. Sometimes your mind becomes intune with your body and you can do amazing things when that happens. You have to be in the mindset that you are a champion, or you are gonna grow like crazy or whatever. Listen to your body and know you are gonna grow not just think you are gonna grow. The strongest muscle is in our skull.....never forget that.

TooPowerful4u · Oct 6, 2004

AWN2004 said:
yep....maybe the best way I can relate to this is by remembering the years I spent in the wrestling room. Every summer and most of the year since I was 11, I trained for that sport. My family is from Iowa so I spent many summers in the city wrestling at U of I. I dont know if anyone on here follows Iowa wrestling, but there was a guy named Chad Zapitil who was a 3X runner up at nationals back in the mid 90's. Its not that this guy was not good enough to become a national champion, he was beaten before he ever stepped onto that mat. I was in Ames in 93 when he lost his 3rd finals appearence and he was crushed. Later that summer at an olympic development camp, he actually told us he was mentaly beaten in that match. That was when I started to realize how powerful your mind is. Your body starts to tell you things and how you react can make such a difference. Sometimes your mind becomes intune with your body and you can do amazing things when that happens. You have to be in the mindset that you are a champion, or you are gonna grow like crazy or whatever. Listen to your body and know you are gonna grow not just think you are gonna grow. The strongest muscle is in our skull.....never forget that.

OMG i was thinking along these exact lines the entire time im reading this thread! I too wrestled and experienced a VERY similar scenario. I became a very advanced wrestler as soon as i got the mindset that i was unbeatable and that every opponent u face is human and nobody is above a mistake or being beaten at some time or another. I realized it too and i to this day know the importance of that mindset so i try to instill it in every young wrestler i teach. I on a regular basis had kids i coached be down by 12pts and pin the kid in the 3rd period, it wasnt even a suprise when i saw it. Id just turn to the team and say... "never give up and still believe you can win because its always a possibility"

Back to the main topic of the thread. . . The mind muscle connection is VERY important. I dont think people realize how important it actually is. I think iv stated here a few times on the boards that i wasted 2yrs arm training trying to lift big weights. I only felt it in the joints and tendons though. As soon as i backed down the volume and weights i was using and actually tried to feel the muscle, suprise suprise, they started growing. Same thing with my lower lats, i learned to feel them during my contest prep for my show this past year, and if u check out my comp pix, i have decent lower lats in the pix. I am continueing to improve them now becuase i believe a great set of lower lats are very impressive when you face the curtain. Vander is 110% right and this is a very valuable thread for a lot of young guys as well as probably some of the older guys on here. If you learn to feel the muscles and stop worrying about ur 1RM and bullshit like that, THEN youl start to see better results.

I remember reading somewhere that Arnold could get an awesome pump in his biceps just by flexing and posing them for just a few minutes. Now THATS mind muscle connection!

Armageddon · Oct 6, 2004

AWN2004 said:
yep....maybe the best way I can relate to this is by remembering the years I spent in the wrestling room. Every summer and most of the year since I was 11, I trained for that sport. My family is from Iowa so I spent many summers in the city wrestling at U of I. I dont know if anyone on here follows Iowa wrestling, but there was a guy named Chad Zapitil who was a 3X runner up at nationals back in the mid 90's. Its not that this guy was not good enough to become a national champion, he was beaten before he ever stepped onto that mat. I was in Ames in 93 when he lost his 3rd finals appearence and he was crushed. Later that summer at an olympic development camp, he actually told us he was mentaly beaten in that match. That was when I started to realize how powerful your mind is. Your body starts to tell you things and how you react can make such a difference. Sometimes your mind becomes intune with your body and you can do amazing things when that happens. You have to be in the mindset that you are a champion, or you are gonna grow like crazy or whatever. Listen to your body and know you are gonna grow not just think you are gonna grow. The strongest muscle is in our skull.....never forget that.

The only person that can stop you is yourself! I liked the post alot.

maxsupplements · Oct 6, 2004

The strongest muscle is in our skull.....never forget that.[/QUOTE]
Thats Great. I will have to remember that line!!!

MR.BICEPS · Oct 6, 2004

MR.BICEPS said:
VANDER your post makes good sense to me.

I'm from the old school of high amounts of volume. I was the first guy in my gym to start using less volume and start making gains back in the early 80's.

A while back I stumbled on a routine that increased my strength while on ASS. My strength went up and I felt much more energetic and not so fatiqued.

I performed 5 sets per body part and gave it four days rest before hitting that particular body part again. My split was a MONDAY WEDNESDAY AND FRIDAY routine and the workout only lasted an hour or so.I know that doesnt seem like a lot but I got stronger!!!!!

Now to me it felt like this was undertraining while on ASS but it was perfect for my body when training as a natural. I have struggled with this issue thinking I must do a certain amount of sets and more than when I was natural in order to get the most out of my steroid usage. I'm sure you understand!!!

I see now that my 38 year old body can no longer recover from 1 1/2 hour workouts 4 to 5 days per week.In all honesty I dont think I ever could recover from that type of training for very long... If 3 hours of training a week worked for Dorian Yates it can work for me. My struggle has not been undertraining since steroid use but overtraining!! I know this sounds strange to many but I come from the old school, the days of Arnold doing 2 hours of intense workouts per day.

Ive got to get it in my head once and for all I do not have to do a lot of sets inorder to grow! Its all about intensity and recovery of the nervous system... No more 4 days per week, 24 sets per workout routines for me. I'll do no more than 18 sets per workout 3 days per week. I am now ready to grow big and strong!!!!!

I wanted to add that the mind is your strongest muscle and VANDER did not mean neglect the gym if your a little tired. Hes saying alot of BB is mental just like any sport. Without having the right mindset your wasting your time in the gym.

Also I do believe the brain lets us know when our bodies are overtrained. If not why not?

DIEZEL666 · Oct 7, 2004

Vander, I have a question then. Say you have a day where you are so fired up to go lift. You charge into the gym, but the weight is just so heavy that day. Lifts you can usually do for 10-12 reps you are struggling with for 6. Do you just stop and go home, or do you do the lighter workout? Thanks.

PHIL HERNON · Oct 7, 2004

I do not understand you

MR.BICEPS said:
VANDER your post makes good sense to me.

I'm from the old school of high amounts of volume. I was the first guy in my gym to start using less volume and start making gains back in the early 80's.

A while back I stumbled on a routine that increased my strength while on ASS. My strength went up and I felt much more energetic and not so fatiqued.

I performed 5 sets per body part and gave it four days rest before hitting that particular body part again. My split was a MONDAY WEDNESDAY AND FRIDAY routine and the workout only lasted an hour or so.I know that doesnt seem like a lot but I got stronger!!!!!

Now to me it felt like this was undertraining while on ASS but it was perfect for my body when training as a natural. I have struggled with this issue thinking I must do a certain amount of sets and more than when I was natural in order to get the most out of my steroid usage. I'm sure you understand!!!

I see now that my 38 year old body can no longer recover from 1 1/2 hour workouts 4 to 5 days per week.In all honesty I dont think I ever could recover from that type of training for very long... If 3 hours of training a week worked for Dorian Yates it can work for me. My struggle has not been undertraining since steroid use but overtraining!! I know this sounds strange to many but I come from the old school, the days of Arnold doing 2 hours of intense workouts per day.

Ive got to get it in my head once and for all I do not have to do a lot of sets inorder to grow! Its all about intensity and recovery of the nervous system... No more 4 days per week, 24 sets per workout routines for me. I'll do no more than 18 sets per workout 3 days per week. I am now ready to grow big and strong!!!!!

3 Days ago you said that you think we all undertrain and take too many AAS, and that overtraining really was not an issue because Arnold did all of these sets and was huge. What are your plans?