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Training Volume ? Old school systems ?

chris250

Featured Member/ Kilo Klub
Featured Member
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Joined
Mar 27, 2003
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Just curious as to see if anyone on the board still trains with alot of volume in there routine...I mean we all know guys like Preist, Culter, Coleman, ect, ect...Most pro's seem to train with more volume...But what about us mortal bodybuilder's...I mean there has to be a few that train with some volume ?

Magnum wanted me to go with more volume (not crazy amount, but more than what I have been use to) So now im trying to do up to 15-16 sets on bigger bodyparts like back, quads ,ect...Smaller bodyparts around 10 sets or so..But the one thing im trying to do (TRYING) is not go to failure on every set anymore..Instead, im just doing a few of my final sets to failure...So for example -

Chest routine
Incline symthe press (counting plates only) 90 x 10, 140 x 10, 180 x 10, 200 x 10, 230 x 10 x 10, 250 x 10 (last set pretty much failure)

DB flat fly - 40 x 10, 50 x 10, 60 x 10 x 10

Hammer flat press - 90 x 10, 180 x 10, 230 x 10 x 10 (last set to failure)

Bodyweight Dips - BW x 15 x 15

Kinda something like that...sets are tough, but its also very tough because im going at a faster pace..I try only to take a minute rest or so inbetweens sets unless its a heavy set (think leg presses or squats, deads)

Is there anyone out there that trains simular to this way anymore..Seems like everyone trains DC (nothing wrong with that...) or HIT...I do think that FST-7 is kinda simular to just being a volume type of program, of chasing the pump, and really trying to get a killer pump with using good amount of weight...

What are everyone thoughts on volume training now ???

thanks for the feedback

chris
 
I'm going to bump this,

The more I see videos of pro's training the one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the volume in their training, and the very small amount of time between sets, like 15 seconds/30 seconds break. The only guys I see train this way are the pros.

It really does make me question the way I train and my training mentality.

BUMP BUMP
 
I personaly think this whole overtraining thing has gone too far.Now people are scared to train like a fucking animal! And people are starting to use it as an excuse to be lazy.Its just what I have been seeing and hearing.Think of back in the day at muscle beach with Arnold and the boys if you would of said "I'm done already,don't want to overtrain you know " Now if the intensity is hardcore you don't need to have marathon sessions,but I've been seeing half ass effort ,short sessions.
 
Last edited:
Chris, I do believe in more volume for prepping and less for off season. That routine you have there for chest, looks solid.
 
Bump - I would like to hear more opinions on this ...

Something to really think about
 
I've been doing pretty low volume for the past two years and it works great for strength but not so much for size. I'm going to failure every set though. When you're doing 15 sets a body part, do you go to failure? I would think that would be grossly overtraining for a natty.
 
EVERYTHING WORKS FOR AWHILE.
NOTHING WORKS FOREVER.
 
doesnt it make sense to have more volume in the off season when your recovery will be better than precontest when its not near as good especially with all the added cardio? i think that intense, low volume training, works best during precontest to maximize your energy while you have it so to speak and to recover better instead of doing 18-20 sets for legs. i would rather do high intensity techniques such as DC/yates etc hit it hard and be done and beat my log book workout by workout to show progress. JMO.
 
doesnt it make sense to have more volume in the off season when your recovery will be better than precontest when its not near as good especially with all the added cardio? i think that intense, low volume training, works best during precontest to maximize your energy while you have it so to speak and to recover better instead of doing 18-20 sets for legs. i would rather do high intensity techniques such as DC/yates etc hit it hard and be done and beat my log book workout by workout to show progress. JMO.

Josh,

How old are you now ? One thing about DC training or HIT type of workouts as of late has been that I dont recover from the workouts very well anymore...My joints ache, im sore longer than I should be, hell maybe iim just old...LOL !!! But Magnum wanted some more volume into the routine, not going to failure stuff, but just going for the pump to say, and going to failure only on my last sets....

chris
 
Well right now I just do 3 sets w/15 reps or more and I grow that way.About 6 execises per BP so thats about 18 sets total and I've always done about 15 to 20 seconds in between.I like to get it and go
 
I began training with a little higher volume this year and it has worked wonders for me...my typical chest routine is very similar to yours. I'm not nearly at the level of a lot of you guys, but I find that I have a harder, denser look to my muscles when training 12-16 sets per bodypart instead of the low volume training that most people around here seem to use these days.
 
emeric I see you on here...Could I get some of that knowledge and see what you have to say about volume training ?

thank you

chris genkinger
 
I have sling shotted back and forth from high volume to low volume...what is working best for me is high frequency and low-moderate volume depending the bodypart. I hit a wall with high volume (recovery just did not happen) and have seen my best gains with current routine of moderate sets. We all have such different recovery capabilities, so it is all about experimenting to see what fits your body. Wish I have Ronnie's recovery system!
 
I actually did this some through college and training up to my first show. the results for me were outstanding! I would my big muscle groups up to 18 sets and my small up to 12 with 45sec-1min rests between. man does it get your body goin. my strength gains were incredible and while maintaining the right diet i put on some good mass . Listen to your body, if you are responding good to it and your body can keep up then stick with it. if your body doesnt like it, you know its time to switch it up. everyone is different, but high volume works very well for me.

best of luck

-bigduff
 
chris-i just turned 33. i take a cruise every 6 weeks to let my joints rest up then back at with new exercises. it comes right down to whats working for you. if you get the best result with more volume then definitely stick with it. dont fix something that aint broke but if its broke then fix it. everybody is so different and i think you have found that a little higher volume works best for you. it shows by your physique.
 
I think it depends on the individual. I've tried low volume training, and I can't get anywhere with it. Now mind you, Im short. Im only 5'5. I have used high volume for quite a while and it works best for me.

Now granted, I may take a little bit more time between my sets, but it's usually anywhere between 15-24 sets per bodypart. God, I hope I don't get flamed for that. It's just what has worked for me. Im with josh though, every 6-7 weeks, I'll take a break for a week and switch up my movements.

I can't help it, I've tried doing the lower volume, but I can't get anywhere with it.
 
Not that my opinion means much, but I found this article on another site. Thought you might be interested in it...


German Volume Trainng 2000
The next step
by TC Luoma



It's been almost 5 years since Coach Poliquin introduced German Volume Training to the modern American bodybuilding audience. Granted, even back in 1996, the method wasn't new — it was just new to Baby Boomer and Gen-X bodybuilders. By Poliquin's own admission, the technique had been used successfully for years in German speaking countries.

And, even in this country, career curmudgeon Vince Gironda practiced a similar method back in the forties and fifties.

For those of you who haven't had the pleasure — or pain — of ever having tried GVT, it involves, rather simply, doing 10 sets of the same exercise, with the goal being to do 10 reps per set. Of course, the goal is more or less theoretical, because if you can actually do ten full sets of ten, you're not using a heavy enough weight.

The time-honored way to determine your starting weight was to choose an amount of resistance that you could do 20 times, and for most mortals, this equates to a weight that's roughly 60% of your 1RM (the maximum amount of weight you can lift one time on any given exercise).

Most trainees are able to do 3 or 4 sets of 10 before the number of reps starts dropping like the Dow Jones after Greenspan raises interest rates. And then, around the 7th, 8th, or 9th set, the trainee invariably experiences some sort of neurological rebound that allows him to suddenly do more reps than he did during the middle sets. Pretty nifty, I must say.

Scientifically speaking, by exposing a group of motor units to such a high volume of work, the body adapts to the incredible amount of stress by growing the targeted fibers at a pretty fast rate. And, along the same lines, the large training volume appears to contribute not only to increased mass, but decreased body fat (Hather, et al, 1992; Stone, O'Bryant, and Garhammer, 1981).

In practice, many trainees were able to put on as much as 10 pounds of muscle mass after doing the program for only a few weeks (provided they increased their protein intake).

Unfortunately, I've found that the original program had a couple of problems. Given my job position as editor-in-chief of a strength-training/bodybuilding mag, I'm able to either work with, or get feedback from, thousands of athletes world wide, many of which've tried the GVT program. As such, I started to see where the program had some shortcomings.

First of all, doing 10 sets of 10 of the same exercise caused people to overuse/overstress certain joint angles. Furthermore, the volume, considering that you were advised to add on a couple of other sets for the same body part using more traditional rep schemes, was just too great for most people, unless they had the advantage of training with a pharmaceutical warehouse in their gym bags.

Thirdly, the program, because of its dependence on doing essentially one exercise per body part wasn't that much of a bodybuilding program. Furthermore, doing one exercise for each body part isn't that great an idea. Say, for instance, your goal is to do 10 sets of leg curls for 10 reps each. Well, the hamstrings don't just flex the lower leg; they also act as hip extensors, and the way you target those muscles is through good mornings and straight-leg deadlifts. Just doing the leg curls completely ignores the other function of the hamstrings.

And lastly, the original German Volume Training program was boring as hell.

So, I experimented. I talked to people like Ian King. I hunkered down in my bodybuilding lab, put together pieces of dead tissue, invoked lightning to strike, and created life out of what was for me and many others, a dead program.

In essence, I kept the purity of the program intact. It still has the theoretical goal of doing 10 sets of 10, but with some major differences.

The program still requires you to use the same weight for all the sets, but instead of doing just one exercise for 10 sets, we're going to be doing 4 different exercises so that we use slightly different joint angles and work the muscle, hopefully, in as many ways as possible.

Here's an example of a chest workout:

Incline Bench Press? 3 sets of 10
Decline Bench Press? 3 sets of 10
Bench Press? 3 sets of 10
Dumbbell Flies? 1 set of 10

What I've done is put the "weakest" position first, and the strongest position third. Then, since pressing movements aren't, by the strictest definition, pure chest movements, I've thrown in another movement that works the chest in a way that duplicates one of the physiological functions of the chest, which is to adduct the arms (the dumbbell flies). True, it's by no means a completely balanced program — affording equal "work" to all muscle groups — but it at least comes close, and it's certainly more balanced than the original program.

You might find yourself only hitting 8 or 9 reps on the 3rd set of the inclines and then "rebounding" and hitting 9 or 10 reps on the first set of the declines, but that's okay. We're after volume here. And, obviously, although you should use the same weight for the first 9 sets, you'll be using dumbbells for the flies and the weight you use will be different.

I devised similar schemes for every major body part:

Back
Wide Grip Pull-ups? 3 sets of 10
Medium Grip Pull-ups? 3 sets of 10
Narrow Grip, Semi-Supinated Pull-ups? 3 sets of 10
Barbell Rows? 1 set of 10

Again, the latissimus dorsi is a very wide muscle (hell, it means "widest back muscle" in Latin), so it only stands to reason that doing nothing but pull-ups would stimulate only a portion of the muscle. And, since the muscle fiber ratio of the upper lat is different than that of the lower lat, we definitely need to throw in at least one set of barbell rows to work the muscle from a completely different angle.

Note: If you aren't strong enough to do chins, use the pulldown machine.

Quads
Front Squats? 3 sets of 10
High Bar, Narrow Stance, 1 and 1/3 Squats (bar high on back)? 3 sets of 10
High Bar, Medium Stance Squats? 3 sets of 10
Leg Extensions? 1 set of 10

Squats are an incredible "total body" movement, working the quads, glutes, trunk muscles, etc., but they don't address the primary function of the quadriceps, which is to extend the lower leg. Hence the leg extensions.

Hamstrings
Good Mornings? 3 sets of 10
Straight leg deadlifts off box? 3 sets of 10
Straight Leg Deadlifts (from floor)? 3 sets of 10
Leg Curls? 1 set of 10

The first three movements work the hip extension function of the hamstrings, but they don't work the other function of the hams, which is lower leg flexion. Hence, the leg curls.

Shoulders
Medium Grip Presses (in front of neck)? 3 sets of 10
Medium Grip Presses (behind the neck)? 3 sets of 10
Very Wide Grip Presses (in front of neck)? 3 sets of 10
Lateral Raises (using dumbbells)? 1 set of 10

Two notes here. First, some trainees might be stronger in the second movement rather than the third, so you'll need to do some experimentation here. Secondly, as far as lateral raises are concerned, I'd prefer that you do them "Jerry Telle" style, but an explanation is beyond the scope of this article. If you want to read more about them, refer to "Tellekinetics: a New Way to Work Shoulders," from issue #50.

Biceps (using dumbbells)
Preacher Curls? 3 sets of 10
Incline Curls? 3 sets of 10
Standing Curls? 3 sets of 10
Reverse Curls? 1 set of 10

Although the first three movements work the biceps brachii, they largely neglect the brachialis; hence the reverse curls.

Triceps (using EZ curl bar)
Lying Extensions (to top of head)? 3 sets of 10
Lying Extensions (to chin)? 3 sets of 10
Seated Overhead Extensions? 3 sets of 10
Reverse Grip Pushdowns (on pulldown machine)? 1 set of 10

Although we blast the long and medial heads of the triceps pretty well in the first 9 sets, we pretty much ignore the lateral head; hence the Reverse Grip Pushdowns.

The Poliquin version of the original program stressed a certain tempo, and I'd like to preserve those tempos. Trouble is, almost no one I ever see train pays attention to these tempos, which is a pity because it's the difference between a moderately successful program and an incredibly successful program.

I urge you to use a 402 *tempo on the movements for the larger muscles (legs, chest, back) and a 302 tempo on the movements for the smaller muscles (shoulders, biceps, triceps).

*For those of you who are newbies, the first number refers to how many seconds it should take to lower the weight, while the second number denotes the pause before reversing the direction of the movement, and the third number, of course, refers to how many seconds it should take to raise the weight.

I also urge a rest period of between 60 and 90 seconds, and I urge a frequency of no more than one training session per body part every five or six days. Here's a sample split that I've found to work pretty well:

Day One? Quads
Day Two? Chest and Triceps
Day Three? Off
Day Four? Hamstrings and Shoulders
Day Five? Back and Biceps
Day Six? Off
Day Seven? Repeat

You probably noticed that I didn't include abs or calves. I don't ignore them; it's just that given their special needs as far as muscle fiber ratios are concerned, I work them in a more conventional way than GVT 2000. You can choose to work them any day, but I like throwing them in after working quads.

Here's a brief synopsis of the more important points of the GVT 2000 program:

• Ten sets of ten, albeit using 4 exercises that stress the muscles from different angles

• The weight you use for the first 9 sets stays the same.

• When you can actually do 10 sets of 10, it's time to add more weight.

• Rest 60 to 90 seconds between sets.

• Pay strict attention to tempo, using 402 for chest, back, and leg movements; and 302 for shoulder, bicep, and tricep movement.


This is a great program, but much the same as any other program, it'll only work for awhile. In fact, this is probably even truer of this type of high-volume training. I'd recommend that you do GVT 2000 for three or, at the most, four weeks. If you keep on doing high-volume work for much longer than that, you'll reach a point of diminishing returns and your other lifts will start to suffer.
Lastly, and I can't stress this enough, too many people undertake a mass-building program without adjusting their diet one lick. They think that muscle will materialize out of thin air! It's like trying to build a house without any material except sweat!

You need to supply more building material, and that building material is protein!

So, if you try this program, do me a favor, okay? Eat! And if you're not anal enough to keep tabs of everything you eat, just throw in at least one extra meal a day, whether it be a protein drink, a meal replacement, or a hunk of turkey meat you ripped off the carcass in the fridge before heading out to wash your car or meeting your buds.

This is a brutal program that leads to deep-seated soreness, so let's do it right. I've no doubt in my mind that you'll grow.
 
Josh,

How old are you now ? One thing about DC training or HIT type of workouts as of late has been that I dont recover from the workouts very well anymore...My joints ache, im sore longer than I should be, hell maybe iim just old...LOL !!! But Magnum wanted some more volume into the routine, not going to failure stuff, but just going for the pump to say, and going to failure only on my last sets....

chris

I am in the same boat you are Chris. It seems like the last few years as I approached 40 and hit it, I cant recover at all from DC/YATES type of workouts. On the other end of the spectrum, I cant do 20+ sets per body either. I am sore all day, I limp around like and old man and just feel shitty all the time. What to do?

I have been playing with the same type of idea that Lenny is doing. More frequent workouts, with moderate volume and only a very small number of failure sets. Like a Hernon workout PLUS a few extra pumper sets thrown in at the end. I put in an extra day where Im only hitting one major bodypart per session. I will do 1-2 sets to all out failure on 1-2 exercises and then hit a super high rep set or do something like the FST (7's) for the pump.. It takes a little getting used to because the sessions are a little longer and Im in the gym more, but the endurance comes in time. I really like it and the experiment is ongoing still....

Here is the breakdown:

Day 1) Chest + Shoulders
Day 2) Legs + Calves
Day 3) Arms
Day 4) Back + Calves.
Day 5) OFF

For EACH bodypart I only do 2 sets to absolute failure on my first movement. Then I pick one more movement where I will do a widowmaker type set of 15-20 reps and then maybe one more movement done in the same fashion or do a FST (7's) thing. Now that widowmaker set is not the killer DC type marathon. Its done simple to get a pump. The weight is moderate and not intended to kill me... My Back day I have TWO movements where I go to failure on since its such a big muscle group. All others, I only do ONE movement with failure sets..

My goal is to KILL the log book, and get crazy strong on the main movement. Then help recovery and facilitate faschia stretching with the other exercises..



Anyway, I thought I would give you an idea of what Im doing...
 
Wow!! thanks guys for all the feedback...

Some very interesting thoughts on here

Now this is what I like about PM - some real hardcore bodybuilders on here who know there shit !!! :D
 
Hey Chris,

What's you reason / rationale / thinking behind doing this kind of training?...

Why increase the volume and drop to only a couple sets to failure?... (E.g., is this to off-set carbohydrate intake in your diet?...)

Are you attempting to grow into the show and is there some progression built into your program?...

Also, it looks like you're changing your training (I'm guessing b/c you're working with Magnum now) as you begin your diet and show prep... Perhaps this is a question for Magnum, but why do this?...

How do these loads compare to what you were doing a month or so ago during the off-season?... Are you expecting that the increased volume will off-set that you're using lighter weights and produce growth or at least minimize atrophy more effectively that sticking with what you were doing?...

-Scott
 

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