EAA conversion to protein grams.

[bruiser]

Does anyone know how to do this?

With all the humapro talk, I'm sure one can get away with just using cheaper EAA's

how do you convert the amount needed of each amino to create a gram of complete protein.

amino 9 essentials:

L-Leucine 981mg
L-Lysine (from L-lysine monohydrochloride) 888mg
L-Phenylalanine 771mg
L-Valine 561mg
L-Threonine 468mg
L-Isoleucine 444mg
L-Methionine 443mg
L-Histidine (from L-histidine monohydrochloride) 328mg
L-Tryptophan 117mg

(about 5 grams)



Humapro ingrediants:

L-Leucine, L-valine, L-isoleucine, L-lysine, L-phenyl alanine, L-threonine, L-methione, -L-tryptophane, L-leucine malate (5.15g)

Bitter Melon Fractional Extract, Coffee Bean Concentrate 210mg

-Vitamin B1 0.7mg
-Vitamin B3 9.0mg
-Vitamin B6 1.0mg
-Vitamin B12 1.5mcg
-Magnesium Citrate 87.5mg
-Calcium Carbonate 175.0mg
-Zinc Glucanate 3.75mg

 

[bruiser]

If I wanna be stocked, TrueN. has:


AjiPure™ L-Leucine Powder (100 Grams)
L-Isoleucine Powder (100 Grams)
L-Lysine Powder (100 Grams)
L-Valine Powder (100 Grams)
L-Tryptophan 250mg Capsules (100 Capsules)

(around 50 bucks)

would just need to find another source for:

L-Methionine
L-Histidine
L-Phenylalanine
L-Threonine

 

[Cerberus777]

TN also has EAA sold by 100g

I'm wondering the same thing about EAA vs protien

 

[flexdurden]

To be a complete protein you just need all of the essential amino acids and they have to be in proper biological amounts, not just trace amounts... You may just want to look into the EAA powder to ensure you are getting all the EAAs.

As for conversions of EAAs to protein, I've heard (not sure how true though) that you need about 1/4 the amount of grams of EAAs as you do for the amount in grams of protein. So 10g EAAS would be like 40g protein.

I do like EAAs and use them on a daily basis and like the fact that they make it easier on my digestive system to get the nutrients i need and don't reduce recovery ability.

 

[bruiser]

To be a complete protein you just need all of the essential amino acids and they have to be in proper biological amounts, not just trace amounts... You may just want to look into the EAA powder to ensure you are getting all the EAAs.

As for conversions of EAAs to protein, I've heard (not sure how true though) that you need about 1/4 the amount of grams of EAAs as you do for the amount in grams of protein. So 10g EAAS would be like 40g protein.

I do like EAAs and use them on a daily basis and like the fact that they make it easier on my digestive system to get the nutrients i need and don't reduce recovery ability.

EEA (trueprotein and most brands) looks just like trace amounts, or im just stupid. Are they combining certain amounts to equal the amount of protein per serving?

I'm looking over the aminos listed in whey isolate to better gauge things, but I'm obviously not number smart.

Was thinking of taking 4-5 grams a day of:
AjiPure™ L-Leucine Powder (100 Grams)
L-Isoleucine Powder (100 Grams)
L-Lysine Powder (100 Grams)
L-Valine Powder (100 Grams)

and specific amounts of:
L-Methionine
L-Histidine
L-Phenylalanine
L-Threonine

 

[bruiser]

TN also has EAA sold by 100g

I'm wondering the same thing about EAA vs protien

i think i read each serving has 10mg protein per serving lol. wtf

 

[Rex Feral]

The way I figure this is by total EAA content and leucine content. This is also how studies that compare the two calculate it. Whey is roughly 50% EAA and 10% leucine. So you would need 20-25 grams EAA to replace 40-50 grams of protein from whey. I realize Rea's math is much different than this but we are talking reality here not fabricated computations. In fact, whey actually out performed EAAs given the same amount of EAAs. The only argument for Rea's math then becomes the master amino profile and the supposed benefits unique to MAP vs. other combinations of EAAs. Personally I don't see how you could possibly equate more value to free form EAAs vs. the same amount from whey as the research has clearly shown the opposite. But some people of course don't do well on whey and some people like myself get tired of whey and have poor meal planning at times because I have more shit to do than eat all day. This is where EAAs become valuable. Also when dieting. Leucine is the trigger. So there should be 4-5 grams of leucine in your 20-25 grams of EAA. Many studies have shown the greater the leucine content the greater the protein synthesis. So you could make your EAA dose leucine heavy in the hope of more closely mimicking 50 grams of protein from whey. What I do now is use the Now Amino Essentials - 9 posted above with Gaspari's leucine heavy BCAA. 10 grams of each yields 20 gm EAA and 8-9 gm leucine. I used Humapro for a couple of years, it is a very good product but I prefer the combination above now. I still use Humapro powder post workout at times but I still add either 10 grams leucine heavy BCAA to 10 grams Humapro or 5 grams straight leucine to 20 grams of Humapro to replace 50 grams of protein.

Rex.

 

[bruiser]

The way I figure this is by total EAA content and leucine content. This is also how studies that compare the two calculate it. Whey is roughly 50% EAA and 10% leucine. So you would need 20-25 grams EAA to replace 40-50 grams of protein from whey. I realize Rea's math is much different than this but we are talking reality here not fabricated computations. In fact, whey actually out performed EAAs given the same amount of EAAs. The only argument for Rea's math then becomes the master amino profile and the supposed benefits unique to MAP vs. other combinations of EAAs. Personally I don't see how you could possibly equate more value to free form EAAs vs. the same amount from whey as the research has clearly shown the opposite. But some people of course don't do well on whey and some people like myself get tired of whey and have poor meal planning at times because I have more shit to do than eat all day. This is where EAAs become valuable. Also when dieting. Leucine is the trigger. So there should be 4-5 grams of leucine in your 20-25 grams of EAA. Many studies have shown the greater the leucine content the greater the protein synthesis. So you could make your EAA dose leucine heavy in the hope of more closely mimicking 50 grams of protein from whey. What I do now is use the Now Amino Essentials - 9 posted above with Gaspari's leucine heavy BCAA. 10 grams of each yields 20 gm EAA and 8-9 gm leucine. I used Humapro for a couple of years, it is a very good product but I prefer the combination above now. I still use Humapro powder post workout at times but I still add either 10 grams leucine heavy BCAA to 10 grams Humapro or 5 grams straight leucine to 20 grams of Humapro to replace 50 grams of protein.

Rex.

so how about 20 grams bcaa with 5 grams leucine?
good reply by the way thanks.

 

[bruiser]

oop ignore that.

was thinking

10 grams amino9
10 grams L-Leucine
2 grams L-valine

3x day or idk

 

[Arcangel]

would just need to find another source for:

L-Methionine
L-Histidine
L-Phenylalanine
L-Threonine

I've been pretty happy with Nutrabio for amino acids that TN doesn't carry.

 

[flexdurden]

The way I figure this is by total EAA content and leucine content. This is also how studies that compare the two calculate it. Whey is roughly 50% EAA and 10% leucine. So you would need 20-25 grams EAA to replace 40-50 grams of protein from whey. I realize Rea's math is much different than this but we are talking reality here not fabricated computations. In fact, whey actually out performed EAAs given the same amount of EAAs. The only argument for Rea's math then becomes the master amino profile and the supposed benefits unique to MAP vs. other combinations of EAAs. Personally I don't see how you could possibly equate more value to free form EAAs vs. the same amount from whey as the research has clearly shown the opposite. But some people of course don't do well on whey and some people like myself get tired of whey and have poor meal planning at times because I have more shit to do than eat all day. This is where EAAs become valuable. Also when dieting. Leucine is the trigger. So there should be 4-5 grams of leucine in your 20-25 grams of EAA. Many studies have shown the greater the leucine content the greater the protein synthesis. So you could make your EAA dose leucine heavy in the hope of more closely mimicking 50 grams of protein from whey. What I do now is use the Now Amino Essentials - 9 posted above with Gaspari's leucine heavy BCAA. 10 grams of each yields 20 gm EAA and 8-9 gm leucine. I used Humapro for a couple of years, it is a very good product but I prefer the combination above now. I still use Humapro powder post workout at times but I still add either 10 grams leucine heavy BCAA to 10 grams Humapro or 5 grams straight leucine to 20 grams of Humapro to replace 50 grams of protein.

Rex.

It has actually been studied that supplementing with leucine above the amoutn that is in 25g whey protein will not further stimulate muscle protein synthesis. When there are sufficient amounts of EAAs, adding more leucine than what is in 25g whey protein will not induce greater muscle protein synthesis.

The particular study (see below) showed that other EAAs, not just leucine and BCAAs have a particular impact on protein synthesis and are also important components in stimulatin protein synthesis and elvating blood amino acid levels. However, only the group that used whey protein had elevated protein synthesis after 3 hours post exercise. So whey protein seems to sustain muscle protein synthesis and the the EAA and leucine content in 25g of whey protein appears to optimally stimulate protein synthesis.


Here is the stufy:

Supplementation of a suboptimal protein dose with leucine or essential amino acids: effects on myofibrillar protein synthesis at rest and following resistance exercise in men.

J Physiol. 2012 Jun 1;590(Pt 11):2751-65. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2012.228833. Epub 2012 Mar 25.

Churchward-Venne TA, Burd NA, Mitchell CJ, West DW, Philp A, Marcotte GR, Baker SK, Baar K, Phillips SM.


Abstract
Leucine is a nutrient regulator of muscle protein synthesis by activating mTOR and possibly other proteins in this pathway. The purpose of this study was to examine the role of leucine in the regulation of human myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS). Twenty-four males completed an acute bout of unilateral resistance exercise prior to consuming either: a dose (25 g) of whey protein (WHEY); 6.25 g whey protein with total leucine equivalent to WHEY (LEU); or 6.25 g whey protein with total essential amino acids (EAAs) equivalent to WHEY for all EAAs except leucine (EAA-LEU). Measures of MPS, signalling through mTOR, and amino acid transporter (AAT) mRNA abundance were made while fasted (FAST), and following feeding under rested (FED) and post-exercise (EX-FED) conditions. Leucinaemia was equivalent between WHEY and LEU and elevated compared to EAA-LEU (P=0.001). MPS was increased above FAST at 1–3 h post-exercise in both FED (P <0.001) and EX-FED (P <0.001) conditions with no treatment effect.At 3–5 h, only WHEY remained significantly elevated above FAST in EX-FED(WHEY 184% vs. LEU 55% and EAA-LEU 35%; P =0.036). AAT mRNA abundance was increased above FAST after feeding and exercise with no effect of leucinaemia. In summary, a low dose of whey protein supplemented with leucine or all other essential amino acids was as effective as a complete protein (WHEY) in stimulating postprandial MPS; however only WHEY was able to sustain increased rates of MPS post-exercise and may therefore be most suited to increase exercise-induced muscle protein accretion.

Supplementation of a suboptimal protein dose with ... [J Physiol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[bruiser]

The way I figure this is by total EAA content and leucine content. This is also how studies that compare the two calculate it. Whey is roughly 50% EAA and 10% leucine. So you would need 20-25 grams EAA to replace 40-50 grams of protein from whey. I realize Rea's math is much different than this but we are talking reality here not fabricated computations. In fact, whey actually out performed EAAs given the same amount of EAAs. The only argument for Rea's math then becomes the master amino profile and the supposed benefits unique to MAP vs. other combinations of EAAs. Personally I don't see how you could possibly equate more value to free form EAAs vs. the same amount from whey as the research has clearly shown the opposite. But some people of course don't do well on whey and some people like myself get tired of whey and have poor meal planning at times because I have more shit to do than eat all day. This is where EAAs become valuable. Also when dieting. Leucine is the trigger. So there should be 4-5 grams of leucine in your 20-25 grams of EAA. Many studies have shown the greater the leucine content the greater the protein synthesis. So you could make your EAA dose leucine heavy in the hope of more closely mimicking 50 grams of protein from whey. What I do now is use the Now Amino Essentials - 9 posted above with Gaspari's leucine heavy BCAA. 10 grams of each yields 20 gm EAA and 8-9 gm leucine. I used Humapro for a couple of years, it is a very good product but I prefer the combination above now. I still use Humapro powder post workout at times but I still add either 10 grams leucine heavy BCAA to 10 grams Humapro or 5 grams straight leucine to 20 grams of Humapro to replace 50 grams of protein.

Rex.

come back and say something lol

 

[Rex Feral]

It has actually been studied that supplementing with leucine above the amoutn that is in 25g whey protein will not further stimulate muscle protein synthesis. When there are sufficient amounts of EAAs, adding more leucine than what is in 25g whey protein will not induce greater muscle protein synthesis.

The particular study (see below) showed that other EAAs, not just leucine and BCAAs have a particular impact on protein synthesis and are also important components in stimulatin protein synthesis and elvating blood amino acid levels. However, only the group that used whey protein had elevated protein synthesis after 3 hours post exercise. So whey protein seems to sustain muscle protein synthesis and the the EAA and leucine content in 25g of whey protein appears to optimally stimulate protein synthesis.


Here is the stufy:

Supplementation of a suboptimal protein dose with leucine or essential amino acids: effects on myofibrillar protein synthesis at rest and following resistance exercise in men.

J Physiol. 2012 Jun 1;590(Pt 11):2751-65. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2012.228833. Epub 2012 Mar 25.

Churchward-Venne TA, Burd NA, Mitchell CJ, West DW, Philp A, Marcotte GR, Baker SK, Baar K, Phillips SM.


Abstract
Leucine is a nutrient regulator of muscle protein synthesis by activating mTOR and possibly other proteins in this pathway. The purpose of this study was to examine the role of leucine in the regulation of human myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS). Twenty-four males completed an acute bout of unilateral resistance exercise prior to consuming either: a dose (25 g) of whey protein (WHEY); 6.25 g whey protein with total leucine equivalent to WHEY (LEU); or 6.25 g whey protein with total essential amino acids (EAAs) equivalent to WHEY for all EAAs except leucine (EAA-LEU). Measures of MPS, signalling through mTOR, and amino acid transporter (AAT) mRNA abundance were made while fasted (FAST), and following feeding under rested (FED) and post-exercise (EX-FED) conditions. Leucinaemia was equivalent between WHEY and LEU and elevated compared to EAA-LEU (P=0.001). MPS was increased above FAST at 1–3 h post-exercise in both FED (P <0.001) and EX-FED (P <0.001) conditions with no treatment effect.At 3–5 h, only WHEY remained significantly elevated above FAST in EX-FED(WHEY 184% vs. LEU 55% and EAA-LEU 35%; P =0.036). AAT mRNA abundance was increased above FAST after feeding and exercise with no effect of leucinaemia. In summary, a low dose of whey protein supplemented with leucine or all other essential amino acids was as effective as a complete protein (WHEY) in stimulating postprandial MPS; however only WHEY was able to sustain increased rates of MPS post-exercise and may therefore be most suited to increase exercise-induced muscle protein accretion.

Supplementation of a suboptimal protein dose with ... [J Physiol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

Yes I am well aware of this, which is why I posted "in the hopes of" with regard to increasing leucine. I already know there is conflicting evidence in this area, you however are apparently unaware. So research a little further and come back and tell me something else I already know.

Rex.

 

[flexdurden]

Yes I am well aware of this, which is why I posted "in the hopes of" with regard to increasing leucine. I already know there is conflicting evidence in this area, you however are apparently unaware. So research a little further and come back and tell me something else I already know.

Rex.

I never saw you say in hopes of...basically your statement read that leucine is the regulator of protein synthesis when in fact, as we see from this recent study, other EAAs also play a key role in the process and with other EAAs present you do not need such a heavy dose of leucine.

Yes, prior research has studied leucine and its protein synthetic benefits but as far as I know, a study comparing EAAs, whey protein or a small dose of whey plus EAAs minus leucine has not been done been done before. If you actually read the study in full you would see the researchers did address the conflicting evidence from prior research. So maybe you are the one that needs to do a little more reading...

I'll take the high road and not come back at you with a smart ass remark like you did, and instead ask that you point me in the direction of studies that prove contrary to the points I made.

Have a swell day champ.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

How do you down your EAAs? flavored? I ordered them once but they weren't edible with out flavoring?
Following thread, good info.

 

[flexdurden]

How do you down your EAAs? flavored? I ordered them once but they weren't edible with out flavoring?
Following thread, good info.

True nutrition instantized EAAs mixed with crystal light lemonade. No issues at all...

Sometimes I add a scoop of limeade BCAA plus too. That makes it taste pretty good actually.

If just crystal light isn't strong enough for you, I know some people add in a little lemon juice to cut the bitterness.

I hope you found some of my musing in this thread useful

 

[tri-terror]

How much does any of this really matter to someone using anabolics?

 

[juggy38]

I think the best bet would be have around 30g whey and 7g EAAs and 3g leucine. there are also studies showing the NEAA's in whey such as cysteine promote muscle protein synthesis.

That's why I like mixing protein sources with my meals. 4oz meat, with whey, or cottage cheese with meat, or eggwhites with meat, just to cover all the EAAs and NEAA's.

But I really like 20g casein hydro with 10g EAAs, 10g glutamine peptides, and 5g leucine intra workout from truenutrition. retarded pumps, even when low carbed.

Make sure to 2x flavor and a citrus flavor, as EAAs and casein hydro taste like vomit

 

[flexdurden]

Bruiser, here are some studies you might find interesting:

Anabolic signaling deficits underlie amino acid resistance of
wasting, aging muscle

Daniel Cuthbertson,*,† Kenneth Smith,*,§ John Babraj,* Graham Leese,† Tom Waddell,* Philip Atherton,*,‡ Henning Wackerhage,* Peter M. Taylor,* and Michael J. Rennie*,§

**broken link removed**

Here, the authors found that there is a dose dependent relationship between EAAs and muscle protein synthesis (mps) up to 10g of EAAs, which contained 2.1g of leucine, but beyond 10g of EAAs there is no further stimulation in MPS. So even with the increased leucine in the higher doses, which they tested up to 40g of EAAs, the additional EAAs and Leucine did not produce greater MPS.

----------------

Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.

Daniel R Moore, Meghann J Robinson, Jessica L Fry, Jason E Tang, Elisa I Glover, Sarah B Wilkinson, Todd Prior, Mark A Tarnopolsky, and Stuart M Phillips


**broken link removed**

This study found that when testing doses of egg protein in the amounts 0 (placebo), 5g, 10g, 20g or 40g there was NO increase in MPS from the 20g dose to the 40g dose, indicating that 20g optimally stimulates MPS.

-----------
Additionally, the data from the following three studies referenced did not report a benefit of additional leucine on muscle protein synthesis when a sufficient amount of EAAs and/or leucine is provided.


Koopman R, Verdijk LB, Beelen M, Gorselink M, Kruseman AN,Wagenmakers AJ, Kuipers H & van Loon LJ (2008).

Co-ingestion of leucine with protein does not further augment post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates in elderly men. Br J Nutr 99, 571–580.

Co-ingestion of leucine with protein does not furt... [Br J Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

------

Stimulation of muscle anabolism by resistance exercise and ingestion of leucine plus protein.

Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Ferrando AA, Aarsland AA, Wolfe RR.

Stimulation of muscle anabolism by r... [Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

This study indictes that 16.6g whey protein plus 3.4g leucine did not further stimulate MPS than whey protein alone.

----------

Excess leucine intake enhances muscle anabolic signaling but not net protein anabolism in young men and women.

Glynn EL, Fry CS, Drummond MJ, Timmerman KL, Dhanani S, Volpi E, Rasmussen BB.

**broken link removed**

This study shows that ingestion of 10g EAAs with 3.5g leucine does not further increase MPS than 10g EAAs with 1.8g leucine.
----------------

The above information leads one to beleive that with sufficient EAA or whole protein intake, the addition of extra leucine will not further stimulate MPS.

However, it's important to realize that intense training probably activates protein synthesis to a greater degree than what researchers are using in the lab. Therefore, it's possible that more than the amino acid content in 20 grams of whey protein or 10g EAAs may be needed for some people to get a maximal response. So you may want to increase beyond what the researchers have found to be effective but do not need to go overboard to get a maximal response.

 

[whateverman]

Bruiser, here are some studies you might find interesting:

Anabolic signaling deficits underlie amino acid resistance of
wasting, aging muscle

Daniel Cuthbertson,*,† Kenneth Smith,*,§ John Babraj,* Graham Leese,† Tom Waddell,* Philip Atherton,*,‡ Henning Wackerhage,* Peter M. Taylor,* and Michael J. Rennie*,§

**broken link removed**

Here, the authors found that there is a dose dependent relationship between EAAs and muscle protein synthesis (mps) up to 10g of EAAs, which contained 2.1g of leucine, but beyond 10g of EAAs there is no further stimulation in MPS. So even with the increased leucine in the higher doses, which they tested up to 40g of EAAs, the additional EAAs and Leucine did not produce greater MPS.

----------------

Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.

Daniel R Moore, Meghann J Robinson, Jessica L Fry, Jason E Tang, Elisa I Glover, Sarah B Wilkinson, Todd Prior, Mark A Tarnopolsky, and Stuart M Phillips


**broken link removed**

This study found that when testing doses of egg protein in the amounts 0 (placebo), 5g, 10g, 20g or 40g there was NO increase in MPS from the 20g dose to the 40g dose, indicating that 20g optimally stimulates MPS.

-----------
Additionally, the data from the following three studies referenced did not report a benefit of additional leucine on muscle protein synthesis when a sufficient amount of EAAs and/or leucine is provided.


Koopman R, Verdijk LB, Beelen M, Gorselink M, Kruseman AN,Wagenmakers AJ, Kuipers H & van Loon LJ (2008).

Co-ingestion of leucine with protein does not further augment post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates in elderly men. Br J Nutr 99, 571–580.

Co-ingestion of leucine with protein does not furt... [Br J Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

------

Stimulation of muscle anabolism by resistance exercise and ingestion of leucine plus protein.

Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Ferrando AA, Aarsland AA, Wolfe RR.

Stimulation of muscle anabolism by r... [Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

This study indictes that 16.6g whey protein plus 3.4g leucine did not further stimulate MPS than whey protein alone.

----------

Excess leucine intake enhances muscle anabolic signaling but not net protein anabolism in young men and women.

Glynn EL, Fry CS, Drummond MJ, Timmerman KL, Dhanani S, Volpi E, Rasmussen BB.

**broken link removed**

This study shows that ingestion of 10g EAAs with 3.5g leucine does not further increase MPS than 10g EAAs with 1.8g leucine.
----------------

The above information leads one to beleive that with sufficient EAA or whole protein intake, the addition of extra leucine will not further stimulate MPS.

However, it's important to realize that intense training probably activates protein synthesis to a greater degree than what researchers are using in the lab. Therefore, it's possible that more than the amino acid content in 20 grams of whey protein or 10g EAAs may be needed for some people to get a maximal response. So you may want to increase beyond what the researchers have found to be effective but do not need to go overboard to get a maximal response.

While I agree with your points, don't try to blind people with science, instead find quality papers that are applicable to us. Some of these are not (the first study is done on elderly men with wasting disease), some kind of are, but most are not (anabolic abusing test subjects aren't typically recruited for these kinds of studies). These are very important variables to consider when selecting research to back up your argument. Cheers!