• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
esquel
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
UGFREAK-banner-PM
advertise1
YMSApril21065
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
tjk
advertise1
mega-banner2
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

Shawn Ray- Gurus, Killers & Liars

What a shady little motherfucker but seriously is anybody surprised? The level of competence in the world now is at an all time low. Sorry he fucked with your wife’s life/health BigTex but damn man how did you guys make it this far if you didn’t think this through. He’s just sending texts to people telling them to blast drugs. And they pay him. He’s a con man who will probably end up behind bars. Or somebody gets hurt and their husband takes him out.
 
I used 250 mg of test e to set 14 world records. I tried 300mg for 1 week and I could hardly control myself. What seems low for some is high for others thus what seems low for some is extremely high for others. That is why plans are individualized not just blindly doled out, one size fits all. When you take stimulants on an empty stomach and vomit and then have the shits, something needs to be changed. This just ain't working so well. When you pay $500 to someone who should know better and this is what you get that is pretty fucked up. Quite frankly I was very embarrassed as this was my idea.

No I completely agree but this is the issue hiring a coach with 400+ clients. It's greedy on his part because he knows he can't give them the service they deserve so you lower your clients and increase prices. He was already charging a lot though and he must have took on as many as he could. I know people who struggle on 40mcg clen and many are super sensitive to certain things and those people need special attention because you can fuck them up very easily which he obviously done. So it may have not been a crazy drug protocol but he didn't give your wife the attention she needed and his plan simply didn't suit her. I also completely agree with the diet and it's simply not enough. Those low cals can be used at very select times but not for long periods. Again for many they will get away with it and get ripped because starving someone on drugs will get them ripped but for most they it will just dig a hole too deep and it simply messes them up. This is why so many women are fucked up after contest preps because they do these extreme protocols (regardless of drugs) and their bodies don't recover properly.
 
I

just did a 5 minute search of proM from google and found multiple instances of “just listen to your coach” “you’re paying him why don’t you follow his advice” etc

To be fair I found @TheOtherOne55 pushing the idea that “if you tell your coach how you want to go forward they’ll listen to YOU” - kind of a contrapositive to the other idea. So it’s a mixed lot.

And lol this one didn’t age well....

I have literally seen that wrote out on this forum about 30+ times over the years. Even I have written it on this forum but it wasn't meant in this regard. It was usually to someone I know doesn't stick to a diet and second guesses everything. Those people should listen to their coach and just follow the plan. Obviously if your coach gives you a fucked up protocol or something you are very uncomfortable running you 100% should question it and go over it with them.
 
OK,, did an analysis on the diet my wife got diet. Had the exercise not been SO extreme the diet would be OK. It is a very high protein diet (229g), low carb (80g), moderate fat (92.5g).
Protein - 44%
CHO - 16%
Fat - 40%

IMHO, 15% carbs is not enough to provide the energy you need for such an exercise intense workout plan. This is not low enough to be ketogenic so there is nowhere near enough glucose to support type II muscle fibers being used in HIIT or weight training. Especially months away from any plans of making any decision to get on a stage and compete. If it was keto, it might be better but 80g of carb and 229.g of protein is not a high fat keto diet by any means.

As someone who IS an educated nutritionist with a masters degree and the same with exercise physiology, I do understand that exercise burns calories, the lower the deficit, the less energy (calories) you have to maintain muscle mass, combat stress and repair damage that was done in exercise. So not only do calories have to be taken into account in a diet but calories burned from exercise are a huge factor too. Ideally to lose weight we want to drop as close to 500-600 calorie deficit as we can to avoid losing muscle mass. Creating this deficit through exercise is usually best. Sure steroids help and definitely GH. But that was definitely not on the protocol. This explains why she loss so much muscle mass, the deficit was HUGE. The caloric intake in this diet was OK, but the amount of exercise done 7 days a week and two times a day put my wife in a 1722 calorie deficit/d with only around 300 calories left to provide the energy needed to support growth/and prevent catabolism. I don't care how much protein you eat, this is not going to work. Now add to this, the thermic effect of the stimulants that constantly being pumped into her body and you get a recipe for disaster. Any trainer with the slightest bit of knowledge should understand this. Especially one that charges $500 a month.

Now the multi-vitamin he suggested supplied ample micros and macros, how ever she was very low in vitamin D (sure helps solve depression/fat burning) also very short in calcium and potassium (think that is important?. Something that has to be though through is a diet, especially when it is long term. My wife never really had a short term goal. So why the hell was there such a huge need to over do it like this? Diets should be long range in hope you lose very little muscle mass in the process. Extreme diets always go bad. I won't lecture you guys on this because all of you should know this.

If a woman is 17% bodyfat and wants to be in competitive shape at 7-8% in three months she needs to wake up. It ain't gonna happen. Shouldn't be hard for a coach to say this unless they are worried she will just go somewhere else and you will lose a client. But then you seriously need to check your ethics.

I am also very familiar with diuretics since I have been taking 25mg HTC for several years for blood pressure issues. Certainly not scared of them. But here is a quote for someone we all know:

Don't bother with lasix unless you want to:
1. lose the show looking flat and fat
2. risk a heart attack when your potassium gets outta whack
3. have a "rebound" effect that will make you look similar to the Pillsbury Doughboy


Here is another comment:
Aldactone 50mg for the last week.
Dyazide 50-100mg for the last day or two if needed

You either love 'em or hate 'em. That all depends on the individual and their response so again you just can't arbitrarily give these to people. Many times natural diuretics work just as good.

So why are women being put on 3 different diuretics for so long not even knowing their health. Good GOD, my doctor makes me do blood work twice a year to see how the kidneys are functioning using the HTC, plus potassium levels. Like I said again, my wife won overall heavy weight division with NO stimulants and NO diuretics. If you don't need them then why arbitrarily tell people to use them? Especially when you don't know their health or needs, and more especially when they have huge unwanted side effects using them. This is just irresponsible and the end result is when shit hits the fan like it apparently is, you lose trust and business.

In the 25 years I coached athletes, I NEVER gave any advice on using steroids or even creatine. I never even discussed the issues even though I have quite a bit of knowledge and personal experience. When someone asked me, I never admit to using anything. I always preached eat good, train hard, rest well and educate yourself on anything you want to know with other substances. I would absolutely be devastated if the advice I gave put someone in the hospital or in the grave. I understand sport and the extremes athletes are willing to go to win. Been there done that.
 
There is a big difference in context between different versions of the statement "listen to your coach" I don't think I've ever heard it in the context meaning "do whatever your coach says without questioning."
 
OK,, did an analysis on the diet my wife got diet. Had the exercise not been SO extreme the diet would be OK. It is a very high protein diet (229g), low carb (80g), moderate fat (92.5g).
Protein - 44%
CHO - 16%
Fat - 40%

IMHO, 15% carbs is not enough to provide the energy you need for such an exercise intense workout plan. This is not low enough to be ketogenic so there is nowhere near enough glucose to support type II muscle fibers being used in HIIT or weight training. Especially months away from any plans of making any decision to get on a stage and compete. If it was keto, it might be better but 80g of carb and 229.g of protein is not a high fat keto diet by any means.

As someone who IS an educated nutritionist with a masters degree and the same with exercise physiology, I do understand that exercise burns calories, the lower the deficit, the less energy (calories) you have to maintain muscle mass, combat stress and repair damage that was done in exercise. So not only do calories have to be taken into account in a diet but calories burned from exercise are a huge factor too. Ideally to lose weight we want to drop as close to 500-600 calorie deficit as we can to avoid losing muscle mass. Creating this deficit through exercise is usually best. Sure steroids help and definitely GH. But that was definitely not on the protocol. This explains why she loss so much muscle mass, the deficit was HUGE. The caloric intake in this diet was OK, but the amount of exercise done 7 days a week and two times a day put my wife in a 1722 calorie deficit/d with only around 300 calories left to provide the energy needed to support growth/and prevent catabolism. I don't care how much protein you eat, this is not going to work. Now add to this, the thermic effect of the stimulants that constantly being pumped into her body and you get a recipe for disaster. Any trainer with the slightest bit of knowledge should understand this. Especially one that charges $500 a month.

Now the multi-vitamin he suggested supplied ample micros and macros, how ever she was very low in vitamin D (sure helps solve depression/fat burning) also very short in calcium and potassium (think that is important?. Something that has to be though through is a diet, especially when it is long term. My wife never really had a short term goal. So why the hell was there such a huge need to over do it like this? Diets should be long range in hope you lose very little muscle mass in the process. Extreme diets always go bad. I won't lecture you guys on this because all of you should know this.

If a woman is 17% bodyfat and wants to be in competitive shape at 7-8% in three months she needs to wake up. It ain't gonna happen. Shouldn't be hard for a coach to say this unless they are worried she will just go somewhere else and you will lose a client. But then you seriously need to check your ethics.

I am also very familiar with diuretics since I have been taking 25mg HTC for several years for blood pressure issues. Certainly not scared of them. But here is a quote for someone we all know:

Don't bother with lasix unless you want to:
1. lose the show looking flat and fat
2. risk a heart attack when your potassium gets outta whack
3. have a "rebound" effect that will make you look similar to the Pillsbury Doughboy


Here is another comment:
Aldactone 50mg for the last week.
Dyazide 50-100mg for the last day or two if needed


You either love 'em or hate 'em. That all depends on the individual and their response so again you just can't arbitrarily give these to people. Many times natural diuretics work just as good.

So why are women being put on 3 different diuretics for so long not even knowing their health. Good GOD, my doctor makes me do blood work twice a year to see how the kidneys are functioning using the HTC, plus potassium levels. Like I said again, my wife won overall heavy weight division with NO stimulants and NO diuretics. If you don't need them then why arbitrarily tell people to use them? Especially when you don't know their health or needs, and more especially when they have huge unwanted side effects using them. This is just irresponsible and the end result is when shit hits the fan like it apparently is, you lose trust and business.

In the 25 years I coached athletes, I NEVER gave any advice on using steroids or even creatine. I never even discussed the issues even though I have quite a bit of knowledge and personal experience. When someone asked me, I never admit to using anything. I always preached eat good, train hard, rest well and educate yourself on anything you want to know with other substances. I would absolutely be devastated if the advice I gave put someone in the hospital or in the grave. I understand sport and the extremes athletes are willing to go to win. Been there done that.
Where to start?
1. That diet isn't extreme at all, that is a classic "semi-keto" diet, she will be in a mild state of ketos for most of the day and probably gets enough carbs around training to bring her out for a short bit, this is an excellent diet strategy that works extremely well.
2. Almost 2k calories, not that low at all.
3. You are saying someone can't lose 10% bodyfat in 3 months? that is absolutely possible. This happens all the time.
4. Aldactone is extremely safe for long-term use and using it for the last week is the gold standard for women who have estrogen production.
5. Bodybuilders are taking all sorts of drugs "arbitrarily."

I agree some of the things I've HEARD sound extreme and out of line, but what I've seen personally, and what you are talking about, is NOT extreme at all, it's standard in this industry. If bodybuilding was all natural I'd agree with you, but this is a completely different animal.
 
Let's not forget we are talking about perhaps one of the most successful coaches of all time when it comes to getting women their pro cards and having them look great on stage, there is no doubt the methods used work and work well.
 
OTOH Milos has also said that if you want safe go do another sport, bodybuilding is extreme. Milos had several close calls himself, from thyroid, Synthol etc. He even did the plasma expanders Chad and Nasser said they were joking about.

In a way, the athlete must know the sport and the different thought processes and ideologies among the gurus and coachs. Also, if he wants to be more secure, go into less extreme divisions.

Milos is a scientist who enjoys trying crazy things on his body, people seek him out, among other things, for that first-hand experience. A near death experience.
 
I know Aceto throws diuretics at guys without understanding them. I can't see his protocols being any worse than what I have seen recently. Luke Sandoe came out about it but then back tracked and went back to him after his show. I have also seen some crazy protocols for men (especially Middle Eastern) that consist of 4-5 days without fluids but that doesn't excuse the protocols that have come out recently. The human body is very resilient so even if people don't die there are multiple girls who have come out who ended up in hospital post show. Bodybuilding is extreme but some of this stuff is simply wrong.

4 or 5 days without drinking pills diuretics? Can the body survive more than 3 days without fluids? Also, what is the point of eliminating the water for so long? It is not necessary in any way.
 
You obviously have an agenda (as you clearly state) and are not aware of what other 'big name' coaches are up to because they are doing the same shit.

Do not shoot so high, you also seem to have an agenda trying to defend the indefensible and out of all logic (in case all these testimonies and protocols are true).
 
Let's not forget we are talking about perhaps one of the most successful coaches of all time when it comes to getting women their pro cards and having them look great on stage, there is no doubt the methods used work and work well.
Lol you're something else aren't you?
 
Ha I love kaladryns posts but yes he clearly has an agenda defending Shelby.
This isn't an opinion on Shelby or Kaldryn one way or another. I do not care about the issue.
Kaladryn wrote a book with Shelby so it makes sense he'd wish his credibility to remain in tact.
 
This isn't an opinion on Shelby or Kaldryn one way or another. I do not care about the issue.
Kaladryn wrote a book with Shelby so it makes sense he'd wish his credibility to remain in tact.
Now it makes sense. He’s usually one of the more clear headed thinkers we have here.
 
4 or 5 days without drinking pills diuretics? Can the body survive more than 3 days without fluids? Also, what is the point of eliminating the water for so long? It is not necessary in any way.
Yes and of course. People do crazy experiments. Definitely not needed. Look at someone like John Jewett as a great example of getting bone dry without using heavy diuretics. I suppose the thought process for many is the less water you consume the drier your body will be. This is precisely why even in recent stories only a small black coffee was recommend on show day and nothing else and some girls went near 2 days without fluids if their show went over 2 days. That is all common stuff and people have done it for years because it can work. Some details have been released before but you never know what is true but I would love to see what guys like Mutzer and Benaziza took. Now those 2 would have done very extreme protocols.

Guys know which "side" I am on because some of these stories are quite frankly shocking. No surprises at all though. The issue is and like the "me too" movement you get girls come out bad mouthing coaches because they were put on standard cycles but just felt horrible due to being in contest prep. It's important not to tar some coaches with the same brush. Fact is bodybuilding involves drugs and sometimes quite a lot of them. However some of these stories are just crazy coming out and these coaches are fucking many people up. Some of the biggest bikini coaches putting girls who have only just started competing on crazy drug cycles (multiple different compounds) and for bikini. We all knew this went on but it's one thing seeing the protocol involving things like clen, t3, caffeine, nolva, aromasin, winny, avar, mast and even tren for bikini girls weighing next to nothing.
 
Looks like these women are doing crazier shit than me. I mean seriously, taking Tren and other heavy androgens for what? This is not a sport, this is a drug taking competition. I don't fucking care who gets offended here, if a woman takes Tren, winny and other heavy androgens to go on stage and do her little routine then there is something wrong here. It's pathetic.
 
This will be a ramble but fuck it who cares this entire thread is a ramble.

1. shawn is one of the most unliked people in this industry even by his own peers and is so bitter from his past hes always in a shit mood.
2. every coach or guru has a body count sadly because they think more is better so their clients can win and they get more money. if the client educates themselves a bit they can choose to not run certain drugs or protocols the coach doesn't control what you put in your body.
3. dorian had help from mentzer early in his career, lee had help from charles, everybody gets help from other people nobody actually does this on their own
4. the people who are in the front of this bashing coaches were some of THE WORST abusers of drugs and dealers in the damn state shouldn't be hard to guess who that was.


what happened was terrible and if a coach prescribed very extreme protocols then shame on them but is is up to the person to put what they want into their body. maybe some research about what is recommended and then decide on your own.
 
I have a question…. I’ve never used a coach before, I’ve just read what I could through books while utilizing the internet as well as BB forums. Is it possible or even feasible to obtain a coach that’ll see you every day? Not just advise on diet/drugs/training via email or phone. Basically be available IN PERSON whenever needed to advise on your current progress or issues. Is this something that’s possible, or is that just for the big time elite level athlete?

If it is possible I imagine it’s a hefty price tag? Say $2000-$4000/month??? But to truly get a feel for where your client is at you should be able to have a face to face. See their body, talk to them, observe them, etc… At least I’d prefer that if I was paying for it. Just curious to those that have used coaches in the past. Seems like what I’ve been hearing/reading is these coaches are only available through email. And it’s sporadic plus generic at best.. I bet there are plenty of good ones though doing it the RIGHT way, but there are bad ones too that are in it for money and nothing else!

Social media will be the downfall of a lot of people in this industry… Trying to maintain a physique that should only be maintained for the stage. The body isn’t meant to sustain that level of leaness/dryness (sub 5%), and people are paying the ultimate price for it! All abt the clicks these days for the influencers. Hopefully they wake up and realize this isn’t healthy or sustainable!

Cage
 
This isn't an opinion on Shelby or Kaldryn one way or another. I do not care about the issue.
Kaladryn wrote a book with Shelby so it makes sense he'd wish his credibility to remain in tact.
The ebook I wrote with Shelby has nothing to do with my opinions here, I have no financial interest in it. I do like Shelby personally, but that isn't my motivation either. Some of you guys have gone completely off the deep end.

A small group of guys here are going off on a witchhunt from secondhand information and straight lies with a bit of truth here and there. I mean just from BigTex's posts alone you should know something is up, everything about those protocols was reasonable.

I've been one of the loudest voices of health and moderation on this forum, but a few of you guys have gone "full snowflake" and obviously have no idea what top end bodybuilding coaching is all about.

I seriously doubt any coach has produced as many positive results as Shelby has, and I doubt any of them have had athletes win more pro cards.
 
I met Shawn Ray years ago maybe around 2003 he was just a really nice down to earth guy didn5 seem to have a big ego and just looked healthy and in great shape. I do think he sometimes comes across poorly in his videos but overall I do think he was one of the good guys.
 

Forum statistics

Total page views
561,747,002
Threads
135,986
Messages
2,787,351
Members
160,585
Latest member
Organic Pro
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
yourdailyvitamins
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
YMSApril210131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
YMS-210x131-V02
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top