Why do people blame insulin for fat gain?

[KillerStack]

"I don't take creatine, it gives me major bloat. I might take Kre-Alkalyn or Creatine hcl because it doesn't have to be loaded and doesn't cause water retention, bro"

I hear this from rank beginners all the way to the pros. It's all baloney.

 

[fredmac82]

I’ve never really understood this.

If a bodybuilder is on a low fat diet and using insulin with a few meals, or even lantus, why would it contribute to more fat accrual if not on it assuming diet is in place?

I was watching a video by Justin Harris where he even explains that if anything it’d keep you leaner due to it allowing more carbs to be stored as glycogen.

Blaming insulin for getting fat is just an excuse for not having their diet in order.

 

[KillerStack]

That makes sense, but then what would be the purpose of loading insulin in meals not during or after training (M1, pre workout meal etc) or using a long acting insulin?

By that logic wouldnt the ideal time just be dosing it post workout?

There are lots of theories on why insulin helps a bodybuilder or not. There have been top gurus who only use insulin on rest days. Dorian Yates believed it stopped all fat loss on a diet.
Some do insulin pre-cardio. Some believe in long acting insulins. Some believe it should only be used around a workout. Pre-workout to have maxed out glycogen for the workout, during to take advantage of the blood flow, "and don't send empty blood" as Milos says and after to improve the anabolic process and recovery further.

My question would be to the ones who say the insulin dose should simply be adapted to your diet if you want to grow for example. But is there much logic to be using insulin if it's not at supraphysiological levels? I believe Mike Arnold has asked the same. Milos appears to have settled in the average 20-25 + 20-25 pre and post zone with a shitload of "extra" carbs and aminos. If you need to lose fat faster or you are already as full as you can get, you don't use insulin at all, you have low carb days until you need to "fill up."

Yeah I know there are different reasons like trying to off-set the stress on the pancreas during the bulk. But all the other anabolics we are using are at supraphysiological levels, why not insulin? Of course I the problems of insulin resistance with too much but to never go to the supraphysiological zone?
Correct me if I'm wrong but Mike Arnold talked about having days where the Lantus would be at 100 or 120iu +.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

There are lots of theories on why insulin helps a bodybuilder or not. There have been top gurus who only use insulin on rest days. Dorian Yates believed it stopped all fat loss on a diet.
Some do insulin pre-cardio. Some believe in long acting insulins. Some believe it should only be used around a workout. Pre-workout to have maxed out glycogen for the workout, during to take advantage of the blood flow, "and don't send empty blood" as Milos says and after to improve the anabolic process and recovery further.

My question would be to the ones who say the insulin dose should simply be adapted to your diet if you want to grow for example. But is there much logic to be using insulin if it's not at supraphysiological levels? I believe Mike Arnold has asked the same. Milos appears to have settled in the average 20-25 + 20-25 pre and post zone with a shitload of "extra" carbs and aminos. If you need to lose fat faster or you are already as full as you can get, you don't use insulin at all, you have low carb days until you need to "fill up."

Yeah I know there are different reasons like trying to off-set the stress on the pancreas during the bulk. But all the other anabolics we are using are at supraphysiological levels, why not insulin? Of course I the problems of insulin resistance with too much but to never go to the supraphysiological zone?
Correct me if I'm wrong but Mike Arnold talked about having days where the Lantus would be at 100 or 120iu +.

Any exogenous insulin is already supraphysiological because even the fastest insulin is in the body and active for much longer than endogenous insulin.

 

[KillerStack]

Any exogenous insulin is already supraphysiological because even the fastest insulin is in the body and active for much longer than endogenous insulin.

My theory is that they could be additive, your body may release a large bolus even before the insulin starts working. If you down a dextrose shake immediately. I mean the peak when I say supraphysiological, don't know how the duration looks compared to natural release as response to a meal.
But think about the guys who do like 2-4ius. Maybe there are benefits. Maybe there are mechanisms that might be involved.

Palumbo used to talk about insulin undersecreters who should do 2iu with breakfast lol. They talk so assuredly about mere theories imo. The Russians said some had too little insulin so they got 1iu.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

My theory is that they could be additive, your body may release a large bolus even before the insulin starts working. If you down a dextrose shake immediately. I mean the peak when I say supraphysiological, don't know how the duration looks compared to natural release as response to a meal.
But think about the guys who do like 2-4ius. Maybe there are benefits. Maybe there are mechanisms that might be involved.

Palumbo used to talk about insulin undersecreters who should do 2iu with breakfast lol. They talk so assuredly about mere theories imo. The Russians said some had too little insulin so they got 1iu.

They are absolutely additive. Can‘t remember where i read it but it‘s in my brain from somewhere……

the peak is not as important (imo) as the duration

many other mechanisms involved other than glucose transport

Post in thread 'Slin on weaker bodypart days?'
https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...n-on-weaker-bodypart-days.176149/post-3230751

 

[juggy38]

Also i believe humalog and lantus have a higher affinity for the IGF receptor than endogenous insulin. Not sure though.

 

[VaginaBoob89]

Doesn't Dave Palumbo have people doing like 40-80ius of humulin N or Lantus eating like 200g of fat per day on top of it?

 

[b-boy]

Man the longer I'm on this board the more amazed I am at the small shit people obsess over, they haven't even mastered step 3 and they are analyzing the shit out of step 12...LMAO

 

[Fleezy]

Does insulin make your face puffy?

 

[b-boy]

Man the longer I'm on this board the more amazed I am at the small shit people obsess over, they haven't even mastered step 3 and they are analyzing the shit out of step 12...LMAO

I feel like all my post belong in the beginners forum.

 

[KillerStack]

They are absolutely additive. Can‘t remember where i read it but it‘s in my brain from somewhere……

the peak is not as important (imo) as the duration

many other mechanisms involved other than glucose transport

Post in thread 'Slin on weaker bodypart days?'
https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...n-on-weaker-bodypart-days.176149/post-3230751

So the longer the action the better. But others argue the opposite, like Milos says, "the faster, the better," high dose, even faster if IVing. Get back to burning fat as quickly as possible.

I believe the main action insulin has is stopping liver glucose production. Seriously LOL.

There are a lot of theories.

 

[KillerStack]

Also i believe humalog and lantus have a higher affinity for the IGF receptor than endogenous insulin. Not sure though.

Yes, luki has the numbers. Only we don't know how relevant this
is for us. It's just another theoretical mode of action.
There have been worries about the igf in diabetic laypeople, and it's been important to study. They use some of clamp to concentrate tge insulin into one bodypart for example then exposing it to thousands of times normal insulin to study effects. The conclusion have mostly been, "don't worry about it."

Doesn't Dave Palumbo have people doing like 40-80ius of humulin N or Lantus eating like 200g of fat per day on top of it?

There have been worries about the igf in diabetic laypeople, and it's been important enough to study. They use some type of clamp to concentrate the insulin into one bodypart for example then exposing it to thousands of times normal insulin levels to study effects. The conclusion have mostly been, "don't worry about it."

Man the longer I'm on this board the more amazed I am at the small shit people obsess over, they haven't even mastered step 3 and they are analyzing the shit out of step 12...LMAO

But what is there to talk about? I haven't really learned anything here that's been actually important for "bodybuilding" in real life, in over 20 years! LOL.
It's all so simple but minutia will be discussed or else there are no forums, we can all just migrate to IG and X LOL.
Victor Black is actually right, bodybuilding knowledge hasn't advanced at all in 30 years. A beginners section is all you need, the basics, and off you go LOL.

 

[KillerStack]

Doesn't Dave Palumbo have people doing like 40-80ius of humulin N or Lantus eating like 200g of fat per day on top of it?

Messed up the vagina reply in the other post. I did hear something about Palumbo using Lantus now. If so just goes to show the number of theories on what insulin does and how it's best used.

 

[VaginaBoob89]

idk I don't think about it much. I inject the insulin and it makes me eat more and gain more weight and have more pumps/fullness in the gym. Don't go hypo or take enormous amounts year round and you're probably gonna be fine.

 

[bbxtreme]

I feel like all my post belong in the beginners forum.

I think the internet and forums have become a blessing and a curse. On one hand it allows people to have access now to information so they don’t hurt themselves or do it wrong.

But on the other they come on here and think it’s a microwave process. They think “ahh Phil Heath’s cycle… that’s what I need to do.”

Maybe the solution is a thread (I don’t have the energy to make one lol) of what we did to get here vs what we do now or the stages of bodybuilding.

I can appreciate what Victor Black is trying to do. He just has a painful path of listening to him to get there.

John Meadow’s paid membership section IMO is where all these guys should be going as he was the best at really bringing order to all this chaos and people trying to skip step one to get to 12 IMO.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

So the longer the action the better. But others argue the opposite, like Milos says, "the faster, the better," high dose, even faster if IVing. Get back to burning fat as quickly as possible.

I believe the main action insulin has is stopping liver glucose production. Seriously LOL.

There are a lot of theories.

I can’t subscribe to his theories. He’s only looking at it from a nutrient shuttle standpoint. That’s far from all it does.
And even from that POV, you can only shuttle what’s in your bloodstream.

The way I structure mines own sheeeit , is when I’m gaining I’m full on gaining. When I cut I’m doing a harrrrrd minicut every 8-10 weeks to reset sensitivity and clean up the rough edges. Then back on the gain train.

Not one size fits all. Just the groove I’ve developed that works best for me at this point in time.

 

[bbxtreme]

So the longer the action the better. But others argue the opposite, like Milos says, "the faster, the better," high dose, even faster if IVing. Get back to burning fat as quickly as possible.

I believe the main action insulin has is stopping liver glucose production. Seriously LOL.

There are a lot of theories.

Milos is referring to the fact that he doesn’t want to turn bodybuilders into insulin dependent diabetics.

He believes in using insulin that mirrors the bodies natural release and response time (as close as possible anyways), thus Humalog is his preference.

That’s why he also only using it around workout windows as well and not throughout the day with other meals.

That’s just his philosophy and theory which works well for many.

That doesn’t mean you can’t utilize it for its other properties and further or lantus for that matter to get tremendous results. You just have to know when to cycle off and how to use it as responsible as possible IMO.

 

[KillerStack]

I can’t subscribe to his theories. He’s only looking at it from a nutrient shuttle standpoint. That’s far from all it does.
And even from that POV, you can only shuttle what’s in your bloodstream.

The way I structure mines own sheeeit , is when I’m gaining I’m full on gaining. When I cut I’m doing a harrrrrd minicut every 8-10 weeks to reset sensitivity and clean up the rough edges. Then back on the gain train.

Not one size fits all. Just the groove I’ve developed that works best for me at this point in time.

Yeah it's not the only thing it does. I think the fastest way to gain as a bodybuilder would be an around the clock insulin use BUT it would make you look like shit and become unhealthy in no time.

His way makes sense in the way that if you do want to use insulin only part of the day it makes sense to put it in the workout window.

 

[luki7788]

bodybuilding is all about consequences i.e. repeating the same thing day after day and small gains every day until after a long time it turns into something big, which is why I am a supporter of using some type of insulin around training because this approach can be used all year round without fear of losing sensitivity if we do it. then accordingly