National Level Cycle

[Lenny]

I think striated glutes are over rated anyway. Most guys on stage that have them are still soft in other places. I think it better to be ripped every where else, this looks far more impressive to me. He looks great for his age. He should do well.

I swear I work my ass off and dieted my butt off this prep, my glutes were tight as hell, but not freaky striated...but I felt my total conditioning was stage ready. I think if I would have just focused on striating my glutes, I may have loss muscle or maybe I just need some more muscle on my backside:banghead:So, is it okay to say to say that striated glutes should never make or break someone if thier total body conditioning is where it should be or at least close! I know it is off topic, but I may have to agree with Magnum on that striated glutes maybe overrated. Come in shredded and condition, but a striped ass doesn't always tell us that:banghead:

Again, I prolly just have a weak backside, damn it:banghead:

 

[bigfatandugly]

.

 

[bigfatandugly]

I am absolutely shocked that you 3 think Shelby's training partner has to be on.....now I dont know about Flexington Steele (if i remember right he actually is black) and i dont know much about killerstack....but Magnum has been around the block and living in the Ohio area I KNOW HE HAS SEEN freak of nature black guys who are just so genetically gifted that it makes your head spin.
I really want to ask you guys....if in your opinion nothing can be done without drugs....what the heck drew you to the sport of bodybuilding in the first place? If training, supplementation and diet dont do jack shit for building anything over 180 pounds....how the heck did you get involved and stay interested in an endeavor like this? Ive seen some black individuals (and some token white guys) who just are mind boggling bodybuilders natural.....and like Shelby said....these guys have absolutely no clue whatsoever on juicing....once you have been around an individual for awhile, you can get a gist whether they are pulling one over on you or not.......I absolutely 100% believe Shelby's training partner is natural because I think Shelby is that thorough and if anyone would know its Shelby....and I think his physique is attainable (and even more) by genetically gifted individuals.

There is a reason that only one white guy in history has run the 100 meters in less than 10 seconds while a whole slew of black guys have done it and as unfair as it is....its because they are genetically better than white guys in the 100 meters just as they are (person by person count) across the board way better than us in bodybuilding.

i can believe that shelby's friend is natural- i was in miami last year for the winter music conference. i was doing some running around and really wanted to train so i pulled off of the interstate and looked for a gym. i figured by driving around i'd have to pass one sooner or later.

i ended up in some god forsaken place in miami where white guys looked to be a somewhat rare commodity. i found a gym, parked my rental, got my stuff out of the trunk and walked in the door. it was about 5 in the afternoon and it was packed and it was a fair sized faciility.

i shit you not i was the only white guy in the place apart from the guy working the desk. i felt a little out of place cause everywhere i walked you'd think i had 3 heads cause i guess they dont get too many white folk training there cause i attracted a bit of attention and curious glances (your not in south beach anymore, dorothy.).

to the point- on average there were more bigger guys in that gym than i had seen in any gym i had ever trained at, and i have seen my fair share of gyms.

so, if someone is trying to tell me in that part of town where it looks that someone is lucky to have a car that runs let alone enough money to run big time cycles that all those guys were saucing had best check themselves.

there is a genetic blessing that some have. a 190 pound natural competitor blessed with genetics might be an anomoly, but not an impossibliity.

 

[flexingtonsteele]

I swear I work my ass off and dieted my butt off this prep, my glutes were tight as hell, but not freaky striated...but I felt my total conditioning was stage ready. I think if I would have just focused on striating my glutes, I may have loss muscle or maybe I just need some more muscle on my backside:banghead:So, is it okay to say to say that striated glutes should never make or break someone if thier total body conditioning is where it should be or at least close! I know it is off topic, but I may have to agree with Magnum on that striated glutes maybe overrated. Come in shredded and condition, but a striped ass doesn't always tell us that:banghead:

Again, I prolly just have a weak backside, damn it:banghead:

Bro your conditioning was very very good.

I dont know when bodybuilding became a shredded ass contest, but it makes me sick to watch these guys hike their trunks all the way in their ass so a crowd full of men can see their striated glutes! Oh brother!

Like Magnum said, its much more impressive to be supremely conditioned and shredded all over than to just have a shredded ass.

The bodybuilders of the 80's and early 90's who IMO conditioning blew alot of these guys conditioning nowadays out of the water, never had shredded glutes. Go figure!!

 

[flexingtonsteele]

Actually track athletes make dam good natural bodybuilders (recreational anyway) as do ex footbal players. At least far better than the common layman. But i understand your point. On Magnums point about speed skating, not many blacks if any try speed skating so that is truely a apple to oranges comparison. There were not many blacks in the inception of professional basketball, football or baseball or even bodybuildng to be honest.




you say you dont need to know what the best truely natural guy could look like......well then if you cant say what the best natural can acheive, how can you say what the best natural cannot acheive? how do you know shelbys friend is not the usain bolt of bodybuilding? or how do you know he hasnt got similar genes to coleman or wheller.

Do you have a example of this look or from what do you base your judgement? what is the absolute pinnicle for the natural bodybuilder (picture wise)



By the way shelbys friend is 190 in that picture.




1. I worded my statement incorrectly so I will apologise if it seems like i am insinuating that ALL BLACKS make better body builders than whites. That is an extreme. Remember we are talking about the genetic elite. All blacks do not have better body building genes. I have personally seen only blacks build similar physiques on complete shiity diets and maintain 8% bf on kfc

But also!!!!!!!!


You appear to contradict yourself. If most blacks by your own admission have better shape and structure, then does it not follow that they make the best bodybuilders or at least natural bodybuilders? pls take gear out of the equation for a sec

This discussion isnt about which race is better at bodybuilding, so im not going to discuss that anymore.

And I dont know why you're so hung up on seeing a pic of a natural physique. Like I said before, I can pretty much tell you by look alone ( with certainty ) a natural vs. enhanced competitor.

For example, heres someone who swears up and down that he's natural and has competed in natural contest for years, and I can tell u that for a FACT he is not natural

"courtesy of killerstack"
**broken link removed**


**broken link removed**

 

[almard]

To be honest "this guy" could just run the test and stay huge for many years with little to no sides. The tren needs to go for toxicity reason and the drol can maybe be cycled here and there but really isn't needed and the EQ would be just a waste. I know two guys who have been running 1000 mg plus of test for many many years and are approaching 50. Both are in good health as of this moment. This doesn't mean I condone it, in fact I highly DO NOT recommend it. I'm just stating some facts and we all are different as far as how we are going to accept a drug, at least to a degree.

Magnum,
I’m all about using testeorne only and cycle the tren..I think that deca, EQ is waste.....
I always hear that using testerone Only will weak the tender and will make you able to get injury, muscle tear very easy.....So what do you think about that....
I once tear my pec very badly and I was in high doses of test Only...my form was strict with light weight ....

 

[chris250]

This discussion isnt about which race is better at bodybuilding, so im not going to discuss that anymore.

And I dont know why you're so hung up on seeing a pic of a natural physique. Like I said before, I can pretty much tell you by look alone ( with certainty ) a natural vs. enhanced competitor.

For example, heres someone who swears up and down that he's natural and has competed in natural contest for years, and I can tell u that for a FACT he is not natural

"courtesy of killerstack"
**broken link removed**


**broken link removed**

what is his ht. and wt. contest and offseason...trying to get the idea of how big he actully is...Looks like a top 15 national level heavyweight guy...with that shape...

 

[KillerStack]

what is his ht. and wt. contest and offseason...trying to get the idea of how big he actully is...Looks like a top 15 national level heavyweight guy...with that shape...

I did a little google check yesterday and someone said he weighed 215 in contest shape. Don't know how tall he is. But he probably passes the "natural going by stats test".

 

[Magnum]

I swear I work my ass off and dieted my butt off this prep, my glutes were tight as hell, but not freaky striated...but I felt my total conditioning was stage ready. I think if I would have just focused on striating my glutes, I may have loss muscle or maybe I just need some more muscle on my backside:banghead:So, is it okay to say to say that striated glutes should never make or break someone if thier total body conditioning is where it should be or at least close! I know it is off topic, but I may have to agree with Magnum on that striated glutes maybe overrated. Come in shredded and condition, but a striped ass doesn't always tell us that:banghead:

Again, I prolly just have a weak backside, damn it:banghead:

Yes it is safe to say, as I have seen plenty of guys with shredded glutes who's conditioning is subpar.

 

[Magnum]

Are you saying he could run the test with no off time or cycle the test on and off for years at that dose? So you don't think there is ever a need for an oral at all and test will get you up in size the best and fastest?

I'm saying that I know guys who pretty much never come off. Doesn't mean that you can't and still get great results. Years ago I reached a good solid 260 on one sust every 5 days. I think that 500 mgs a week is plenty for most IF they are strict about diet and training.

 

[Magnum]

Magnum,
I’m all about using testeorne only and cycle the tren..I think that deca, EQ is waste.....
I always hear that using testerone Only will weak the tender and will make you able to get injury, muscle tear very easy.....So what do you think about that....
I once tear my pec very badly and I was in high doses of test Only...my form was strict with light weight ....

If you don't mind me asking, how much test were you on when you tore your pec?

 

[oreolo]

Hmmmmmm

This discussion isnt about which race is better at bodybuilding, so im not going to discuss that anymore.

And I dont know why you're so hung up on seeing a pic of a natural physique. Like I said before, I can pretty much tell you by look alone ( with certainty ) a natural vs. enhanced competitor.

For example, heres someone who swears up and down that he's natural and has competed in natural contest for years, and I can tell u that for a FACT he is not natural

"courtesy of killerstack"
**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

you are right....this aint about race

With all due respect dude, your answer is a massive cop out. I dont say that to pick an argument, so pls dont take it as a disrespect. Your argument style is used by many when challenged to back up their assertions.

Take the 4 minute mile

Imagine the year is 1957. Imagine I had witnessed it being done yesterday. I come back to the net(or mail box) and say what I saw. Everyone calls bullshit and says " It cant physically be done"

WOULD IT NOT BE FAIR FOR ME TO ASK, WHAT THE FASTEST SPEED PEOPLE CONSIDER FOR A HUMAN? :banghead:

Would you say "Well I dont know what speed a human is capable of but I know it aint under 4 minutes per mile"!!!!!!
Well on what do you base your assertions? If several others say they have witnessed the same up and down America including others in the know, would you not give the benefit of the doubt???

I AM NOT HUNG UP OF SEEING THE PICTURE OF JUST ANY NATURAL PHYSIQUE!!!!!

I AM HUNG ON SEEING THE PICTURE OF THE NATURAL PHYSIQUE CONSIDERED TO BE THE GOLD STANDARD. If you can put up a picture for ridicule, why cant you put up a picture of what you consider to be the the very best a natural can acheive? Is it because you dont want to be held to it??

If you have no idea, why not just say so.

You state you can tell by look what an enhanced vs natural looks like?? well dont you think someone like Shelby can tell as well? Shelby didnt get a picture of just anyone, its his training partner

But answer me something yet again

Do you honestly beleive you have seen the best natural bodybuilders in the world?........Do you really beleive you have seen the absolute best natural physiques any gym in America can produce or even top 100 physiques that can be produced.?... Once again, can you provide even one picture of a representation of this look?



if the answer is no, without trying to ridicule me......If you dont know what the best natural can looks like, if you dont know whats possible, how do you know what is impossible?

Tell you what...... You post makes me really appreciate Dante trudel. Before reading his material, I beleived in limitations where muscle gain is concerned, and he made me beleive in the impossible if you are willing to pay your dues. Even funnier or ironically still, Shelby trains DC style and Shelby is training this dude.

 

[Magnum]

you are right....this aint about race

With all due respect dude, your answer is a massive cop out. I dont say that to pick an argument, so pls dont take it as a disrespect. Your argument style is used by many when challenged to back up their assertions.

Take the 4 minute mile

Imagine the year is 1957. Imagine I had witnessed it being done yesterday. I come back to the net(or mail box) and say what I saw. Everyone calls bullshit and says " It cant physically be done"

WOULD IT NOT BE FAIR FOR ME TO ASK, WHAT THE FASTEST SPEED PEOPLE CONSIDER FOR A HUMAN? :banghead:

Would you say "Well I dont know what speed a human is capable of but I know it aint under 4 minutes per mile"!!!!!!
Well on what do you base your assertions? If several others say they have witnessed the same up and down America including others in the know, would you not give the benefit of the doubt???

I AM NOT HUNG UP OF SEEING THE PICTURE OF JUST ANY NATURAL PHYSIQUE!!!!!

I AM HUNG ON SEEING THE PICTURE OF THE NATURAL PHYSIQUE CONSIDERED TO BE THE GOLD STANDARD. If you can put up a picture for ridicule, why cant you put up a picture of what you consider to be the the very best a natural can acheive? Is it because you dont want to be held to it??

If you have no idea, why not just say so.

You state you can tell by look what an enhanced vs natural looks like?? well dont you think someone like Shelby can tell as well? Shelby didnt get a picture of just anyone, its his training partner

But answer me something yet again

Do you honestly beleive you have seen the best natural bodybuilders in the world?........Do you really beleive you have seen the absolute best natural physiques any gym in America can produce or even top 100 physiques that can be produced.?... Once again, can you provide even one picture of a representation of this look?



if the answer is no, without trying to ridicule me......If you dont know what the best natural can looks like, if you dont know whats possible, how do you know what is impossible?

Tell you what...... You post makes me really appreciate Dante trudel. Before reading his material, I beleived in limitations where muscle gain is concerned, and he made me beleive in the impossible if you are willing to pay your dues. Even funnier or ironically still, Shelby trains DC style and Shelby is training this dude.

Why do you keep using runners to try and prove a point about someone using steroids?? Plus seeing someone run an under 4 minute mile is not the same as trying to prove if someone uses steroids. Your analogy makes no sense. Also, I noticed that you only have 8 posts so welcome to the board. You must have been a long time lurker seeing that you know a lot about Dante Trudel and shelby.

 

[richiec]

Oreolo...

Here are a few pics of a natty pro, but hey, he's probably just lying?

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

Now remember, his degree in microbiology doesn't mean anything, he's juicin

 

[richiec]

Why do you keep using runners to try and prove a point about someone using steroids?? Plus seeing someone run an under 4 minute mile is not the same as trying to prove if someone uses steroids. Your analogy makes no sense. Also, I noticed that you only have 8 posts so welcome to the board. You must have been a long time lurker seeing that you know a lot about Dante Trudel and shelby.

Magnum, I think he is using running as an analogy because there really is nothing you can compare bodybuilding with. Runners are notoriously being accused of using sauce, and if a record is ever broken, people immediately say "he's on steroids because there is NO WAY he could've done that naturally". That's why I think he uses that analogy

 

[KillerStack]

you are right....this aint about race

With all due respect dude, your answer is a massive cop out. I dont say that to pick an argument, so pls dont take it as a disrespect. Your argument style is used by many when challenged to back up their assertions.

Take the 4 minute mile

Imagine the year is 1957. Imagine I had witnessed it being done yesterday. I come back to the net(or mail box) and say what I saw. Everyone calls bullshit and says " It cant physically be done"

WOULD IT NOT BE FAIR FOR ME TO ASK, WHAT THE FASTEST SPEED PEOPLE CONSIDER FOR A HUMAN? :banghead:

Would you say "Well I dont know what speed a human is capable of but I know it aint under 4 minutes per mile"!!!!!!
Well on what do you base your assertions? If several others say they have witnessed the same up and down America including others in the know, would you not give the benefit of the doubt???

I AM NOT HUNG UP OF SEEING THE PICTURE OF JUST ANY NATURAL PHYSIQUE!!!!!

I AM HUNG ON SEEING THE PICTURE OF THE NATURAL PHYSIQUE CONSIDERED TO BE THE GOLD STANDARD. If you can put up a picture for ridicule, why cant you put up a picture of what you consider to be the the very best a natural can acheive? Is it because you dont want to be held to it??

If you have no idea, why not just say so.

You state you can tell by look what an enhanced vs natural looks like?? well dont you think someone like Shelby can tell as well? Shelby didnt get a picture of just anyone, its his training partner

But answer me something yet again

Do you honestly beleive you have seen the best natural bodybuilders in the world?........Do you really beleive you have seen the absolute best natural physiques any gym in America can produce or even top 100 physiques that can be produced.?... Once again, can you provide even one picture of a representation of this look?



if the answer is no, without trying to ridicule me......If you dont know what the best natural can looks like, if you dont know whats possible, how do you know what is impossible?

Tell you what...... You post makes me really appreciate Dante trudel. Before reading his material, I beleived in limitations where muscle gain is concerned, and he made me beleive in the impossible if you are willing to pay your dues. Even funnier or ironically still, Shelby trains DC style and Shelby is training this dude.

I've been reading some cycling forums recently since there's been so many doping accusations and I'm interested in human performance, performance enhancement, etc. So there's been some scientists who have proposed formulas for detecting doping just by looking at performance. For example,

Professor Aldo Sassi has said that any value over 6.2w/kg for a long effort on a major climb at the end of a stage race could be an indication of doping.

Other scientists agree with Sassi's formula.
**broken link removed**

And as you talk about runners, same thing has been done in running. Saying with high certainty what is not a natural performance. The whole reason Castor Semenya was targeted for gender testing was because her performance was too good to be true for a non-doped female. And they were right, she had a gender condition!

The only thing similar for bodybuilding I'm aware of is formulas by a guy named Casey Butts. Now this research is probably fairly weak and probably ignores some outliers but IIRC he said over 200lbs on stage under 6 feet is most likely on drugs. Interesting nonetheless.
**broken link removed**

As far as going by what a person looks like, I'd say that's pretty damn accurate way to tell if you're experienced. Take Stallone, one look at his forearms and I could tell he was a drug user with high certainty even if I didn't know the guy, and didn't know anything about him or his doping admissions. Stallone is a small and skinny guy by bodybuilding standards but the look is not natural! Someone like Phil Hernon could probably take a few dozen bodybuilders and tell with pretty high accuracy what they were on or not on.

Now remember, his degree in microbiology doesn't mean anything, he's juicin

What exactly are you insinuating here? Him having a degree in microbiology makes him less likely to dope?

 

[oreolo]

Why do you keep using runners to try and prove a point about someone using steroids?? Plus seeing someone run an under 4 minute mile is not the same as trying to prove if someone uses steroids. Your analogy makes no sense. Also, I noticed that you only have 8 posts so welcome to the board. You must have been a long time lurker seeing that you know a lot about Dante Trudel and shelby.

The analogy is there for a comparison on what is deemed impossible/possible. I have a feeling you already know that and just cant take being wrong.

ps I noticed you still aint provided a picture for what you beleive is the gold standard, which would have ended my questioning a long time. I asked for one simple picture of your opinion, which you freely gave to categorically state shelbys training partner cannot be natural, but 2 days on you dont seem to want to use your same analytical skills to show what in your opinion is the absolute pinnicle of natural bodybuilding?

Did you at one time not have 8 posts???? Did they make your posts any less valid?

Tell me, how many posts do i need to not be considered a lurker??

1, 8, 500, 1000?

I have followed your posts before, you are a veteran on this board and you definately give good info, but your argument style when you are not agreed with is flawed. Are posts only valid when I have a higher post count? Should big A put a notice saying "Only argue when posts go into triple figures?

Why cant you argue on the facts

In case you didnt notice this aint the only site on the net , and I bet you most of the traffic to this site are from people who shut the fuck up and just learn

ps.s...... I, like many of Dantes fans, were spinning our wheels and money for years to decades till he came along. Not just him, I follow Massive G's posts on diet and supplement advice, as well as Shelby and a slew of many others for tweaks here and others

heres the kicker

I dont need to post alot to do that

God bless

 

[Shelby]

Regarding glutes, I agree the overemphasis is a bit much.

But it's just part of the game now - if you have them, they set you apart.

But you can set yourself apart in a number of other ways too.

Here's a 19-year old client of mine that just squeezed into the middleweights for the Teen Nationals this weekend. I can't help but think that having some lines in his glutes will help him get noticed there.

 

[oreolo]

I've been reading some cycling forums recently since there's been so many doping accusations and I'm interested in human performance, performance enhancement, etc. So there's been some scientists who have proposed formulas for detecting doping just by looking at performance. For example,

Other scientists agree with Sassi's formula.
**broken link removed**

And as you talk about runners, same thing has been done in running. Saying with high certainty what is not a natural performance. The whole reason Castor Semenya was targeted for gender testing was because her performance was too good to be true for a non-doped female. And they were right, she had a gender condition!

The only thing similar for bodybuilding I'm aware of is formulas by a guy named Casey Butts. Now this research is probably fairly weak and probably ignores some outliers but IIRC he said over 200lbs on stage under 6 feet is most likely on drugs. Interesting nonetheless.
**broken link removed**

As far as going by what a person looks like, I'd say that's pretty damn accurate way to tell if you're experienced. Take Stallone, one look at his forearms and I could tell he was a drug user with high certainty even if I didn't know the guy, and didn't know anything about him or his doping admissions. Stallone is a small and skinny guy by bodybuilding standards but the look is not natural! Someone like Phil Hernon could probably take a few dozen bodybuilders and tell with pretty high accuracy what they were on or not on.



What exactly are you insinuating here? Him having a degree in microbiology makes him less likely to dope?

Killerstack, Firstly I appreciate your posts bcos it was not an attack on my post count and it actually addresses my question

I see what you are saying about the look thing , but I dont feel Shelbys friends result is absolutely unattainable (i do beleive it does require fantastic genes and diet), but to be honest I am judging from my own perspective. I will not pretend its any more than that. i honestly am interested in what people see as the best natural by look,, since in my gym the 190 - 200 pounders look far better (leaner) than the 220 pounders and upwards, and they are the ones people play the "gear or not on gear game"

Castor Semenye is a one off, but i do recognise your point. Again while I think Shelbys partner is one of the most outstanding naturals i have seen, i dont think he is unique to the world (my opinion)

The casey butt scale

there was a massive debate/argument on tnation by alot of guys who stated/claimed to have smashed orr known others who had smashed that scale

I see what you say about stallone with all them frealky veins

 

[almard]

If you don't mind me asking, how much test were you on when you tore your pec?

2250 grams of test Only...I have been ON and off for almost 10 years and never use had injury untill I run test alone...

My training foarm is always strick....kind your training style with short rest peroid.....