2nd cycle, help with fine tuning

[NightWanderer]

I should soon have on hand:
20ml test cyp @ 250mg/ml
100 10mg dbol
100 25mg tamox/nolva
25 1mg arimidex/anastrozole
5000 iu HCG (may or may not use, depending on how things are looking)

gear option 1: standard 10 wk.
20mg dbol daily, 4-6 wks depending on bp/water retention
500mg test per wk. 10 wks

Gear option 2: stretch the test, 12 wks.
20-30 mg dbol daily 4 wks
250mg test during the 4 wk dbol run
500mg test for 8 wks.

Ancillary notes:
on my first cycle I ran test enan 420mg per wk 10 weeks. No gyno issues but I blew up ridiculously with water, to the point where it was a medical concern.
My doc advised that I take the nolva I had on hand the whole time, but thinking that was purely for gyno prevention I saved my nolva for pct.
THIS time around I have enough nolva to go from day 1 through pct if I take the 10 wk route. Knowing how prone I am to edema now, I would like to throw in the adex at .5mg eod, especially considering what dbol might do with water retention. However, I'd like to incorporate my ancillaries in a way to where after the cycle, I have enough for a decent PCT as well. So, gear option 1 or 2? and how would you work the ancillaries given whichever option you choose?

 

[tkav1980]

the previous side you had coulde be dose related. id say stick with test only, the dbol wont go bad, and hit the test for 250mg for at least the first 5 weeks and see how you respond. the bloat could have been diet related as well, so post up your proposed diet along with cycle info.

 

[NightWanderer]

the previous side you had coulde be dose related. id say stick with test only, the dbol wont go bad, and hit the test for 250mg for at least the first 5 weeks and see how you respond. the bloat could have been diet related as well, so post up your proposed diet along with cycle info.

I will say this, my diet wasn't as clean as it should have been at the time and I remember some days there was high sodium intake, so I feel sure that sodium was indeed part of the issue. At 420mg per wk I can't see how that was an overly excessive dose though, but you could be right. My diet is going
to generally be:
Breakfast:
3-4 eggs w/ no butter or salt, or bisquick pancakes made with egg white instead of water, topped with sugar free syrup.

40g Whey shake or double dose Xtend (BCAA supplement drink) later on

Lunch:
Arroz con pollo (diced chicken breast, rice, simmered in tomato sauce base w/ peas) or turkey/tuna sandwich on whole wheat.

Another shake, or bar, or maybe just some unsalted almonds later

Dinner:
Whatever's on the table, it's the one meal my gf likes to eat so I make whatever she wants. If it's just too dirty of a meal for anyone taking themselves seriously I might opt out for some pan seared salmon patties made with no oil, or something similar that's mostly protein and doesn't require much prep because I hate cooking when I'm the only one who's going to eat, especially if I JUST got done cooking only moments before.

Pre bed if I want a snack, fat free cottage cheese or yogurt will do, or maybe
a couple of heaping spoonfuls of Naturally More. it's a lower fat/higher protein peanut butter made with egg white & flax.

In short, I'm mostly just concerned with hitting 200g of protein a day while keeping carbs and fat at moderate levels, and sodium LOW this time. I can always up my cardio after I'm done dropping water during pct if I see that I've put on some fat.

 

[tkav1980]

420mg isnt an excessive dose generally but you may just not react well to it. IMO the diest needs alot of work. unfortunately i cant help with that, thats why i hired someone to do it for me. if you planning a cycle, i promise your money would be better spent on Phil hernon. you can contact him through a pm on this site, and he will get diet and training in check for you. itll be the best $250 youll ever spend...oh and that for a whole year!

 

[brineal]

you might want to think about getting your diet in line rather than cycling anything...

 

[NightWanderer]

you might want to think about getting your diet in line rather than cycling anything...

Always open to advice. As far as I know with the possiple exception of the dinner/gf comment everything I mentioned was protein rich, complex carbs and not beyond mid day, whey to bring up the protein intake, etc etc.

 

[FuriousFarmah]

Always open to advice. As far as I know with the possiple exception of the dinner/gf comment everything I mentioned was protein rich, complex carbs and not beyond mid day, whey to bring up the protein intake, etc etc.

I've really done better having 6 meals/day: 3 solid, 3 portable shakes. I also set exactly what i eat ahead of time for good measure. I aim for at least 2g/# LBM.

I can't give any advice on gear, or diet while on gear, as I don't have any experience. I'd say that if your diet's not in line, don't go for a cycle.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158 This article has an interesting take on diet. Why don't you give it a look-over?

 

[NightWanderer]

See that's what's got me confused about my diet supposedly not being up to par. I've got 3 solid meals plus two 40g whey shakes for five meals. Now if the difference between 5 meals and a late night snack vs 6 meals is going to make a big difference in the gains I see, then fine, I'll try to squeeze another one in, but for me that's going to be difficult.

About the food itself, I see low sodium, little to no fried food, low/no carbs beyond the early afternoon. Regarding the protein requirements, I say 200g because I'm 5'5'', weight generally between 160-165lbs at this time. Mind that I happen to be in a wheelchair and have very little of that weight on my legs because of it, even compared to a couch potato. So for me 165lbs is a heaver weight than someone who has more muscle mass in their legs accounting for some of that weight.

Anyway, about the diet info you linked me to:

DIET
VERY simple. Very important that you try to get as
close to 500g of protein per day. Easiest way to do
that is to have a whey protein shake in water with
every meal. Fats and carbs don't matter. Calories
don't count, macro nutrients (protein, fat, carb) do.
If you get to add fat on, just cut out the fats and
keep your carbs bellow 300g/day. That's all it is!
Very simple, but hard to stick to, so not many people
get results. On gear, the more protein you eat, the
more you grow. Is as simple as that. Gear maximises
protein synthesis.

All it mentions directly about flaws in my proposed diet is that I need twice as much protein basically because the juice will be upping my synthesis rate. However, just yesterday I just saw a comment from phil hernon regarding diet claiming he eats roughly 200g's a day and is more casual regarding the number of meals he'll eat any given day.

SO what if you do not eat 5 meals a day, it doesnt matter. If you are not hungry, why are you eating??? Some days I eat 2 times, others 5 times. Listen to your body. On average I eat 200 grams of protein, somedays more, soem less. Some might say, "there is an example of genetics " but it is simply not true. Anyone stuffing their face with food and thinks that it magically will turn to muscle is the same guy that needs to lose 50 pounds before each show.
__________________

Now granted, to even get your hands on a pro card your genetics must be something special, and all individuals vary, but I happen to agree with him wholeheartedly here. when I try to really push my body into eating more, no matter how well I spread my meals appart and adjust portions, at a certain point I just feel too constantly full and bloated to the point where it seems to hinder my training sessions because I feel overly full too often.

 

[brineal]

the diet you outlined above just doesnt seem like many calories, i think phils entire idea behind eating when youre hungry isnt about reducing the number of meals, its to do things to make your body hungry so that rather than forcing an extra 2 or 3 meals, your body WANTS those extra meals...

it may work for you, but three meals with a couple of protein shakes thrown in just doesnt seem like enough to really grow on, but if that will work for you, then more power to you i guess..

 

[oldfella]

the diet you outlined above just doesnt seem like many calories, i think phils entire idea behind eating when youre hungry isnt about reducing the number of meals, its to do things to make your body hungry so that rather than forcing an extra 2 or 3 meals, your body WANTS those extra meals...

it may work for you, but three meals with a couple of protein shakes thrown in just doesnt seem like enough to really grow on, but if that will work for you, then more power to you i guess..

The diet is the critical and limiting factor to all of this. It is about protein. You will need more than 200gms of proteinin any case. It is more about the ratios of macro nutrients you eat and how often nfeeding takes place. Eating when hungry is the best way to achieve this. Without giving away specifics it is about protein, carbs and fats at each and every feed. the ratios are so critically important to the sucess of your efforts. But 200 gms of protein is not enough!!!

 

[mrsoul]

The diet is the critical and limiting factor to all of this. It is about protein. You will need more than 200gms of proteinin any case. It is more about the ratios of macro nutrients you eat and how often nfeeding takes place. Eating when hungry is the best way to achieve this. Without giving away specifics it is about protein, carbs and fats at each and every feed. the ratios are so critically important to the sucess of your efforts. But 200 gms of protein is not enough!!!

phil hernon says 200 is enough. wow could we be witnessing the first time of disagrees with ph? lol!!!

 

[oldfella]

phil hernon says 200 is enough. wow could we be witnessing the first time of disagrees with ph? lol!!!

200gms is enough for what? This is the question. What Phil did not tell you is that 200gms is enough at each meal!!! (j/k) Is it disagreeing if I have always used more than 200 gms of protein through my entire bbing life? Always gotten great results with much more than 200gms? I usually use much fewer carbs than Phil might recommend also, So is that also disagreeing? I do not always agree with a lot of things from a lot of people
. But is is certainly not worth arguing over. It is about calories in vs calories expended. So if the balance is there and I choose more cals from proteins than carbs it still makes the numbers the same. Protein source also plays into this a lot.

 

[NightWanderer]

200gms is enough for what? This is the question. What Phil did not tell you is that 200gms is enough at each meal!!! (j/k) Is it disagreeing if I have always used more than 200 gms of protein through my entire bbing life? Always gotten great results with much more than 200gms?.

I'm sure I'd get great results getting 500g of protien vs 200, I'm just saying, there's only so much food I can stand to eat in a given day, and I need at least some room in my appetite for fats and carbs. At a natural 165lbs I'm a hell of a lot smaller in general than a man of P.H.'s stature, so 200 grams for me is a much bigger number than for anyone weighing in at say, 200lbs+. I will certainly try my absolute best in getting every gram in I possibly can, but realistically I don't think I could get in 500g's day in, day out for for a solid 4months and still get in enough carbs, fat and fiber for me to function well.

 

[pesty4077]

I will say this, my diet wasn't as clean as it should have been at the time and I remember some days there was high sodium intake, so I feel sure that sodium was indeed part of the issue. At 420mg per wk I can't see how that was an overly excessive dose though, but you could be right. My diet is going
to generally be:
Breakfast:
3-4 eggs w/ no butter or salt, or bisquick pancakes made with egg white instead of water, topped with sugar free syrup.

40g Whey shake or double dose Xtend (BCAA supplement drink) later on

Lunch:
Arroz con pollo (diced chicken breast, rice, simmered in tomato sauce base w/ peas) or turkey/tuna sandwich on whole wheat.

Another shake, or bar, or maybe just some unsalted almonds later

Dinner:
Whatever's on the table, it's the one meal my gf likes to eat so I make whatever she wants. If it's just too dirty of a meal for anyone taking themselves seriously I might opt out for some pan seared salmon patties made with no oil, or something similar that's mostly protein and doesn't require much prep because I hate cooking when I'm the only one who's going to eat, especially if I JUST got done cooking only moments before.

Pre bed if I want a snack, fat free cottage cheese or yogurt will do, or maybe
a couple of heaping spoonfuls of Naturally More. it's a lower fat/higher protein peanut butter made with egg white & flax.

In short, I'm mostly just concerned with hitting 200g of protein a day while keeping carbs and fat at moderate levels, and sodium LOW this time. I can always up my cardio after I'm done dropping water during pct if I see that I've put on some fat.

I am going to agree with everyone else, your diet could be better. I don't know when you work out, but I don't see a good pre or postworkout meal. Your breakfast could be better. As far as 200g of protein per day, yes, if you are taking a ton of LBAS, but for those that are not 1 1/2g to 2g per pound of bodyweight. So, you weigh 165? You need at least 247.5g to see serious growth. Yes, I agree with Old Fella on this one.

 

[mrsoul]

200gms is enough for what? This is the question. What Phil did not tell you is that 200gms is enough at each meal!!! (j/k) Is it disagreeing if I have always used more than 200 gms of protein through my entire bbing life? Always gotten great results with much more than 200gms? I usually use much fewer carbs than Phil might recommend also, So is that also disagreeing? I do not always agree with a lot of things from a lot of people
. But is is certainly not worth arguing over. It is about calories in vs calories expended. So if the balance is there and I choose more cals from proteins than carbs it still makes the numbers the same. Protein source also plays into this a lot.

i hear ya of. maybe you missed the part where he said he is 5.5, 165 lbs and in a wheelchair. his lbm is obviously less than 165 so 200g for gaining lean mass should be plenty dont you think. ofcourse you use more than 200g, and i do as well, but you and i are well over 200lbs and not in a wheelchair.

 

[pesty4077]

i hear ya of. maybe you missed the part where he said he is 5.5, 165 lbs and in a wheelchair. his lbm is obviously less than 165 so 200g for gaining lean mass should be plenty dont you think. ofcourse you use more than 200g, and i do as well, but you and i are well over 200lbs and not in a wheelchair.

Wow, you are right, plenty of protein for him. I apologize.

 

[tkav1980]

you just fine at 200 grams, now what i would do is start playing around with total macro's at each meal until you find the right balance that gives you the best results.