Another effective training method to throw in your rotation: "just get that b*tch sore af"

[stackdizzy]

These are the threads I try not to post. I'm going to make a fairly provocative post...but most of this is pretty much settled science and I'll post some associated studies.


1. If you are an accustomed lifter, the repeated bout effect will protect your body from damage when training. This is important to keep us alive. Logically thinking if you went to the gym 5 days a week and caused muscle damage...you'd surely get rhabdo and likely be dead. The implication here is if you are going to the gym routinely and accustomed any hypertrophy you are getting is not from muscle damage, repair and regeneration. One single bout of a novel movement will activate the RBE effect for up to 24 weeks. IE...you are not protected from muscle damage https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24701128/

2. The myocytic androgen receptor controls the strength but not the mass of limb muscle. Meaning, getting a stronga does not get you a bigga, this is especially true once the RBE has kicked in. All adaptions for strength gain will be a chemical reaction at the androgen receptor.

3. After only 6 weeks of training almost all growth/hypertrophy is from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Fluid, essentially. They cycle of being a routine lifter, not getting sore, and getting bigger and full is just sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/

3b. This is how generally how everyone is getting enormous (including me at one point). Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (and fat) has no MND size limit. Unfortunately, real and actual tissue growth does have an MND size limit. This is what most people refer to as "newbie gains ending" or their genetic limit. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25464670/

4. Eccentric focused training that is new or unaccustomed is a great way to cause muscle damage, repair and remodel, and actual tissue growth https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10356650/


What I'm getting at is you can get huge and not really build any muscle. It's why so many get huge in the offseason (even when fat gain is kept under control) and so many lose it when dieting. There is no limit (especially with drugs and proper diet manipulation) to the amount of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy you can gain and your body literally has protective mechanisms to keep you from muscle damage if you are a routine trainer.

You can likely get around the MND size limit, RBE, and the bodies other protective mechanisms...but it's extremely hard to find that path to continue to cause damage and then you must stay in a well fed state.

Driving strength via the androgen receptor and growth via sarcoplasmic isn't "evil". It's what bodybuilding and powerlifting are based on....but it's also not actual tissue growth.

And finally...I'll leave you with this. This is EASY to test. Stop training, stop all carbs, and stop all drugs. If your growth is driven by real damage and remodel of tissue/myofibrillar growth, as long as you are not bedridden, you really should not strength OR lose strength.



All of this post is to make the point that getting DOMS can and likely is a decent sign that damage has occurred and you may have an opportunity for an actual adaption in real growth.

thanks for taking the time to put this together! Excellent post!

 

[stackdizzy]

Everyone is different, I suppose. I find that if I've allowed myself to get into a training rut, and then change things up, that first week on the new program I'll experience some soreness. A little bit of soreness is taken as a good sign, IMO, as I'm concluding that the muscle group is slightly confused, and getting stimulated in a slightly different way. More than that, and I'm thinking that I've injured myself and should be careful (important for us old farts).

For guys with fast metabolisms and only modest responders to AAS, I agree with all the posts above, you have to be hyper vigilant on the diet. Excess calories, and intelligent macro breakdown. The body can't grow without getting the proper fuel.

One other thing, for the guys that are really training intensively, I've experienced some benefit in taking a week off (maybe once a quarter or once every two quarters), and just doing cardio and some light full-body circuit work on the off week to give the CNS a respite. Upon returning to my tough training, I felt rested, recouped and mentally more ready to go. Maybe some people don't need this, but it's been helpful for me, and several others who had good results concurred.

Yea I have taken weeks off when I was younger and would always come back stronger.

 

[qbkilla]

Interesting find at 25 Kurt and Paul seem to not be a fan of going past failure, saying it's actually bad. I'm no one to question them but based on all I've read from big guys can't say I agree. Also biased I love drop sets, partials, negatives, myo reps etc

 

[Biggerp73]

As an update to this training thread,

After a month or so of training focusing a lot on achieving DOMS by tearing the muscle down and making the pump as painful as possible

I'm switching to a 3 day, push, pull, legs split

To increase training frequency as well

Volume will be slightly less, only one exercise per body part

 

[alfresco]

Arnold said that to judge the effectiveness of a new exercise he would do 40 sets of 40 reps to see what got sore. I don’t know if I believe him but I doubt he cares

 

[need4tren]

Train till your effective sets fall off. If your not able to bring the intensity to the last sets then your doing too much.

Anyone training for a good amount of time will be skilled enough to break down muscle tissue for growth. It’s not hard. Push the body past what it did the previous week. If your just doing pump shit at the end of the workout your wasting your time and taxing your nervous system. Nervous system and hypertrophy go hand in hand

 

[qbkilla]

As an update to this training thread,

After a month or so of training focusing a lot on achieving DOMS by tearing the muscle down and making the pump as painful as possible

I'm switching to a 3 day, push, pull, legs split

To increase training frequency as well

Volume will be slightly less, only one exercise per body part

What was the doms split? What's an example of triceps day?

I've personally never liked ppl...too much to fit into a workout. I do best with sticking to a bro split but also like

Legs
Delts
Off
Chest tri
Back bi
Touchup (light , pump work for 1-3 priority parts)
Off

2 quotes here have helped steer me in the right direction... finally...

To lazy to look them up but to paraphrase .. apologize if I bastardized them

"The best don't spend excessive time overthinking and overcomplicating they just work damn hard" - luki

Then this post by Daniel

"I agree with his general principles, good simplification. Many years ago I watched a video of Jay Cutler doing a chest workout leading up to an Olympia and he said that rather than sets, reps, etc., he was looking to get a certain feeling in the muscle - that's always stuck with me. It took me years to actually understand that but optimal training really is about totally fatiguing the muscle with as little work as possible."

 

[danieltx]

What was the doms split? What's an example of triceps day?

I've personally never liked ppl...too much to fit into a workout. I do best with sticking to a bro split but also like

Legs
Delts
Off
Chest tri
Back bi
Touchup (light , pump work for 1-3 priority parts)
Off

2 quotes here have helped steer me in the right direction... finally...

To lazy to look them up but to paraphrase .. apologize if I bastardized them

"The best don't spend excessive time overthinking and overcomplicating they just work damn hard" - luki

Then this post by Daniel

"I agree with his general principles, good simplification. Many years ago I watched a video of Jay Cutler doing a chest workout leading up to an Olympia and he said that rather than sets, reps, etc., he was looking to get a certain feeling in the muscle - that's always stuck with me. It took me years to actually understand that but optimal training really is about totally fatiguing the muscle with as little work as possible."

PPL is not too much to fit in a workout.

Take the volume from your bro split, cut it in half, and do your PPL split twice a week with the volume spread across those days. I trained that way from 2018 through 2021 and made great progress.

 

[M@NU]

PPL is not too much to fit in a workout.

Take the volume from your bro split, cut it in half, and do your PPL split twice a week with the volume spread across those days. I trained that way from 2018 through 2021 and made great progress.

ppl is great, i even do OK/UK right now 6x a week and grow pretty nice (well, it is also reverse diet/rebound phase)
the most important thing with those splits:
- dont overdo the volume
- dont overdo it on intensifier, use them sparingly (maybe 1, max 2 per workout)

my OK usually consists of (working sets), 5 for chest, 6 for back, 3 for delts, 2 for bi and 2 for tri.
18 total sets is fine for me, im usually done in below 90min including warm up

 

[IntenseVolume]

Train till your effective sets fall off. If your not able to bring the intensity to the last sets then your doing too much.

Anyone training for a good amount of time will be skilled enough to break down muscle tissue for growth. It’s not hard. Push the body past what it did the previous week. If your just doing pump shit at the end of the workout your wasting your time and taxing your nervous system. Nervous system and hypertrophy go hand in hand

The muscle does not grow from being broken down and building back up. Muscle damage can and often does happen but muscle damage doesn’t cause growth. If it did getting stabbed in the quad would create hypertrophy in the area you were stabbed in. Thats not how it works.
the current understanding is that volume, mechanical tension, and possibly metabolites are drivers.
Damage does not produce mgf. Without mechano growth factor there is no growth.

 

[IntenseVolume]

Interesting find at 25 Kurt and Paul seem to not be a fan of going past failure, saying it's actually bad. I'm no one to question them but based on all I've read from big guys can't say I agree. Also biased I love drop sets, partials, negatives, myo reps etc

What exactly do you not agree with. Paul is 50+ and he’s growing like a weed.
They both have clients that have all responded extremely well to the style of training.
It’s important to not have an emotional attachment to any style of training, nutrition, etc and keep an open mind.
Nobody knows everything and the ones who claim they do aren’t doing themselves any favors.
Theres no one way that is best.

Training to failure, rir, high frequency, low frequency, high volume, low volume, ppl, 5 day split, etc all work if your nutrition, recovery, and drugs are up to par consistently over time and you’re providing enough stimulus for hypertrophy to occur.

Thats all we’re doing in the gym is providing a stimulus.
If im building a house im not going beat the bricks to dust and turn the dust back into bricks before I use them.

 

[Biggerp73]

@IntenseVolume it's a bit of equivocation to bring in muscle damage via injury, stabbing, etc, and compare that to what we mean when we say muscle damage in the gym.

I have had lots of great progress staying a mile away from failure and staying away from DOMS and not worrying about the pump, but I also have had lots of great progress training to failure focusing on DOMS and the pump.

I think sticking with one method of training for too long, either one exercise, one rep range, one intensity, one frequency, etc, can lead to stagnation.

 

[need4tren]

The muscle does not grow from being broken down and building back up. Muscle damage can and often does happen but muscle damage doesn’t cause growth. If it did getting stabbed in the quad would create hypertrophy in the area you were stabbed in. Thats not how it works.
the current understanding is that volume, mechanical tension, and possibly metabolites are drivers.
Damage does not produce mgf. Without mechano growth factor there is no growth.

I could not disagree more. I don’t even know where to start. Bringing in stabbing a muscle? I don’t think you get how the human body works

 

[qbkilla]

What exactly do you not agree with. Paul is 50+ and he’s growing like a weed.
They both have clients that have all responded extremely well to the style of training.
It’s important to not have an emotional attachment to any style of training, nutrition, etc and keep an open mind.
Nobody knows everything and the ones who claim they do aren’t doing themselves any favors.
Theres no one way that is best.

Training to failure, rir, high frequency, low frequency, high volume, low volume, ppl, 5 day split, etc all work if your nutrition, recovery, and drugs are up to par consistently over time and you’re providing enough stimulus for hypertrophy to occur.

Thats all we’re doing in the gym is providing a stimulus.
If im building a house im not going beat the bricks to dust and turn the dust back into bricks before I use them.

Agree with your post

I listened again...at 25:00 I may have misunderstood what they said. I thought they were implying that by going beyond failure...say a drop set or static hold....you are harming the muscle and you would be better off not doing that. Maybe that's not what they meant but If it is I can't say I agree. That would essentially be saying never do intensifiers...ever. But after listening again maybe I made that assumption and they aren't against beyond failure training.

 

[qbkilla]

PPL is not too much to fit in a workout.

Take the volume from your bro split, cut it in half, and do your PPL split twice a week with the volume spread across those days. I trained that way from 2018 through 2021 and made great progress.

Agree if I switch splits I equate volume just distribute it differently. What I meant to say... mentally..I don't like to walk in the gym and know "imma do a little chest, then a little delts, then a little tricep." I prefer " arms day, walking in this gym and destroying my arms then walking out"

So wasn't complaining about total volume rather the mindset that I have to train multiple parts vs focus on one...if that makes sense.

 

[danieltx]

Agree if I switch splits I equate volume just distribute it differently. What I meant to say... mentally..I don't like to walk in the gym and know "imma do a little chest, then a little delts, then a little tricep." I prefer " arms day, walking in this gym and destroying my arms then walking out"

So wasn't complaining about total volume rather the mindset that I have to train multiple parts vs focus on one...if that makes sense.

Here's another dose of tough love for you.

A big part of why you never made the progress you wanted is you have the average person mindset. You don't care about what's best for your progress, you care about what's most enjoyable. Those two almost never go together in bodybuilding.

 

[IntenseVolume]

It’s an extreme example if muscle damage to prove a point.

If you believe muscle damage causes growth when it has been disproven long ago then I know for a fact you do not.

I’ll put money on the fact that I’ve forgotten more than you’ll ever know.

I could not disagree more. I don’t even know where to start. Bringing in stabbing a muscle? I don’t think you get how the human body works

 

[IntenseVolume]

@IntenseVolume it's a bit of equivocation to bring in muscle damage via injury, stabbing, etc, and compare that to what we mean when we say muscle damage in the gym.

I have had lots of great progress staying a mile away from failure and staying away from DOMS and not worrying about the pump, but I also have had lots of great progress training to failure focusing on DOMS and the pump.

I think sticking with one method of training for too long, either one exercise, one rep range, one intensity, one frequency, etc, can lead to stagnation.

Sure but the fact remains that muscle damage does cause growth. It can actually impede it. A muscle is not torn down and built back up.

Muscle damage eats into recovery.

the best training is the one that creates a stimulus that someone will be consistent with.
I agree with you I’ve done about every training style that sounded interesting since I was 17 I’m 39 now and if I was recovering properly they all worked, some better than others.

The things I would have changed if I could go back would be tossing the log book and not making adding reps of weight my primary focus.

 

[need4tren]

It’s an extreme example if muscle damage to prove a point.

If you believe muscle damage causes growth when it has been disproven long ago then I know for a fact you do not.

I’ll put money on the fact that I’ve forgotten more than you’ll ever know.

You’ve forgotten more then I’ll ever know but your arguing a muscle doesn’t grow from being broken down and recovering?

When you stimulate muscle through training your breaking down muscle tissue, mechanical tension is the prime driver of growth, and yes recovering is how you grow. We know training breaks down muscle tissue as this is proven by blood tests.

Post up your physique since you’re taking shots at me. You’re probably under 250 pounds without being in decent condition. All you know it all science nerds are.

 

[IntenseVolume]

You’ve forgotten more then I’ll ever know but your arguing a muscle doesn’t grow from being broken down and recovering?

When you stimulate muscle through training your breaking down muscle tissue, mechanical tension is the prime driver of growth, and yes recovering is how you grow. We know training breaks down muscle tissue as this is proven by blood tests.

Post up your physique since you’re taking shots at me. You’re probably under 250 pounds without being in decent condition. All you know it all science nerds are.

You’ve forgotten more then I’ll ever know but your arguing a muscle doesn’t grow from being broken down and recovering?

When you stimulate muscle through training your breaking down muscle tissue, mechanical tension is the prime driver of growth, and yes recovering is how you grow. We know training breaks down muscle tissue as this is proven by blood tests.

Post up your physique since you’re taking shots at me. You’re probably under 250 pounds without being in decent condition. All you know it all science nerds are.

Does Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage Play a Role in Skeletal ... : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research

d duration of training. Although concentric and isometric actions contribute to EIMD, the greatest damage to muscle tissue is seen with eccentric exercise, where muscles are forcibly lengthened. Damage can be specific to just a few macromolecules of tissue or result in large tears in the...

journals.lww.com

Muscle damage and muscle remodeling: no pain, no gain? - PubMed

Skeletal muscle is a dynamic tissue that responds adaptively to both the nature and intensity of muscle use. This phenotypic plasticity ensures that muscle structure is linked to patterns of muscle use throughout the lifetime of an animal. The cascade of events that result in muscle...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29282529/

You’ll probably need this.

https://violentmetaphors.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/how-to-read-and-understand-a-scientific-article.pdf

I can do this for a while.
Muscle damage can occur but is not the cause.

Are you 250lbs lean?
I’d love to see the physique. Will you post it?

Thats awesome. No sir I’m not 250lbs. 250 at 5’8 is huge.