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Another effective training method to throw in your rotation: "just get that b*tch sore af"

Dante, not sure how closely you follow the sport currently, but this guy has made me think of that thread this year.


Pushed super fucking hard in the offseason, everyone making fun of how fat he got. Then come contest time he shows up shredded having gained a shit ton of muscle.
I’d like to hear @luki7788 thoughts on this. His guys (and himself) stay lean year round and progress.

I like Jo, but he talks about cheat meals, force feeding WHILE eating snacks here and there (cookies etc). He even states that some of the fluff was just because he wanted to hit 300lbs. Just because he got in shape, which I had no doubts he would, doesn’t mean what he’s doing with the excess bodyfat gain is unnecessary and just more stress on his health when not needed.
 
I’d like to hear @luki7788 thoughts on this. His guys (and himself) stay lean year round and progress.

I like Jo, but he talks about cheat meals, force feeding WHILE eating snacks here and there (cookies etc). He even states that some of the fluff was just because he wanted to hit 300lbs. Just because he got in shape, which I had no doubts he would, doesn’t mean what he’s doing with the excess bodyfat gain is unnecessary and just more stress on his health when not needed.
I've always been a proponent of staying relatively lean while offsea (actually all year round) and I also believe that pushing the scale up quickly and force-feeding works but it causes a cascade of subsequent metabolic problems and in 99% of cases if I see someone who has made a very big progress in size in a very In a short time it ends with his waist becoming very blocky and even if he had great proportions before after losing all this fat tissue, he has much more muscles in general, but his proportions are disturbed and he usually ceases to be a great bodybuilder.
 
I've always been a proponent of staying relatively lean while offsea (actually all year round) and I also believe that pushing the scale up quickly and force-feeding works but it causes a cascade of subsequent metabolic problems and in 99% of cases if I see someone who has made a very big progress in size in a very In a short time it ends with his waist becoming very blocky and even if he had great proportions before after losing all this fat tissue, he has much more muscles in general, but his proportions are disturbed and he usually ceases to be a great bodybuilder.
Agreed

Looking at his midsection at Cali


Even vs just 2023


Seems like some rough midsection changes

Another example

 
the question is whether they will push so much size to mask the development of the waist - don't form me. I like this guy, he trains hard but increases his size in the way he could e.g. his coach Justin Compton who was naturally skinny and lean with a very fast metabolism so he could push the food much higher without losing proportions due to his skeletal structure.
Guys who are naturally more endomorphs can't push things the same way as ectomorphs.
 
I've always been a proponent of staying relatively lean while offsea (actually all year round) and I also believe that pushing the scale up quickly and force-feeding works but it causes a cascade of subsequent metabolic problems and in 99% of cases if I see someone who has made a very big progress in size in a very In a short time it ends with his waist becoming very blocky and even if he had great proportions before after losing all this fat tissue, he has much more muscles in general, but his proportions are disturbed and he usually ceases to be a great bodybuilder.
I agree with you, but I think that some athletes who really force feed and get very dirty also have the genetics to do it; unfortunately eating a lot is not easy and it is not for everyone, as long as it is 5000/5500kcal everyone can do better or worse, the problem is when it becomes 6500/7000 every day for a long time, after all bodybuilding is genetics

organic genetics
receptor genetics
genetics to tolerate drugs for many years at medium/high doses
 


That guy was never going to be Flex Wheeler, Brian Buchanon, or Francis Benfatto onstage....never. He was blocky and endomorphic from the beginning. So I guess the choice was this.....and it truly was this. Never get an IFBB pro card (which looks like it was his goal) and I am 99% sure he would have never gotten a pro card if he went the stay lean all the way up and try to turn pro route. Why do i say that? Because with that blocky of waist and not so favorable shoulder width and subpar v taper there is one way and only one way to get an IFBB pro card. You have to get so massive that the blocky waist and the lack of v taper get over ruled onstage because you are so much larger than everyone else. I am not saying thats "good" I am just saying he would not have a pro card with those non favorable genetics unless he did what he did. You cannot turn that beginning physique into a Dennis Wolfe like physique. Thats the genetic hand he was dealt. And you will see that going forward. He wont win because on the upper level playing field you are dealing with people with small waists with just as much if not more muscle mass. But if he tried to do the stay lean method on the way up he would have heard "not big enough, and blocky waist" instead of just "blocky waist". Is his waist even blockier now, heck yea it is. But he was never going to have a wasp waist no matter what he did. So I guess he took the sledgehammer way to a pro card. There will be no contest wins, there will be no wealth from bodybuilding coming in....it is what it is. But he got the pro card (which I guess was the goal).

There was nothing Nasser could have done to turn him into Flex.....its just the genetic hand your dealt and I guess you work with what you have to work with and try to make your strong points ultra strong to stand out.

The getting uber large fast method always worked better for ectomorphs anyways like Seth Shaw on that link i presented. Nobody gets a smaller waist when they add 55lbs of muscle mass over their waistline as a bodybuilder. No 45 year old man has the same waistline as he did when he was 22 either at the same bodyfat. Time and genetics are not giving.

Would i have taken that route with him, no i would have done things differently but he got the pro card and I think that was the goal.
 

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my opinion but forcefeeding gave him a waist as wide as his delts

Fridge look from slin + overfeeding

Could get in same mass in bit more time while keep waist tighter if he wasnt so agresive

But this is just me , this is not bodybuilding to me

Zero proportion
Just from knowing friends of friends and Jo as well as them openly talking about his protocols with Justin Compton, this wasn’t slin or force feeding thing at all. In almost every picture (he’s only done 4 shows) he has the same blocky wide waist proportions. Even as a natural, he had that look. Do I think that continuing to grow all over is probably a mistake? Yeah probably, but up until this CA Pro, it had worked and looked good every time. His USA winning shape is really good. But some bodybuilders need to growww grow longer than others. He’s just a guy that needs to fix other spots rather than just adding more scale weight.
 
Do people think there is anything that can actually be done to "shrink" the waist other than things to prevent distension?

I've heard...wrapping it before doing cardio, training the tva, vaccumes... avoiding direct ab work...etc. skeptical that any of them make a difference
 
Do people think there is anything that can actually be done to "shrink" the waist other than things to prevent distension?

I've heard...wrapping it before doing cardio, training the tva, vaccumes... avoiding direct ab work...etc. skeptical that any of them make a difference

Think Dante did a long in depth post on this that got re shared recently
 
@IntenseVolume it's a bit of equivocation to bring in muscle damage via injury, stabbing, etc, and compare that to what we mean when we say muscle damage in the gym.

I have had lots of great progress staying a mile away from failure and staying away from DOMS and not worrying about the pump, but I also have had lots of great progress training to failure focusing on DOMS and the pump.

I think sticking with one method of training for too long, either one exercise, one rep range, one intensity, one frequency, etc, can lead to stagnation.
Absolutely. Agree with this. These days I'm making little progress in size. But good progress in strength. I do a certain number of one exercise for a few weeks and then switch it out. For one example, I'll do a light weight very high rep incline flat bench for 2 or 3 weeks. Then heavy set bench press for 2 or 3 weeks. Then long eccentric reps on the hammer strength then incline flies and cable crossover then rapid fire inclines.

You have to keep your body guessing. Meals too. I'm pretty mighty on my intervals. I learned this rock climbing as I got super strong for my weight because on a rock face, EVERY angle is different. Then discovered this type of training. I'll be sticking with this somewhat modified HIIT for a while. (I made a few mods of my own). The only thing I have to stop is the burst concentric phase. Last week, it felt like a bee stung me right at my pec insertion. So I'm taking that pec out of the service until it's healed.

I think it was Emeric who said, "Motivation can be your friend or enemy." You can motivate your body beyond its capabilities by sheer will. That's a place we don't want to be. Pec tears, knee injuries, rotator cuffs, hips, etc. That's when injuries occur.
 
You do realise hes on 1.5g test 1g primo 1g mast and 15iu GH in his 50s as per his last youtube video?...
And...so what?

I couldn't handle it. Maybe a gram of test with the GH. And Anadrol would be used very sparingly. Look, there's just not a cookie cutter approach out there. Everyone is just too different.
 
That guy was never going to be Flex Wheeler, Brian Buchanon, or Francis Benfatto onstage....never. He was blocky and endomorphic from the beginning. So I guess the choice was this.....and it truly was this. Never get an IFBB pro card (which looks like it was his goal) and I am 99% sure he would have never gotten a pro card if he went the stay lean all the way up and try to turn pro route. Why do i say that? Because with that blocky of waist and not so favorable shoulder width and subpar v taper there is one way and only one way to get an IFBB pro card. You have to get so massive that the blocky waist and the lack of v taper get over ruled onstage because you are so much larger than everyone else. I am not saying thats "good" I am just saying he would not have a pro card with those non favorable genetics unless he did what he did. You cannot turn that beginning physique into a Dennis Wolfe like physique. Thats the genetic hand he was dealt. And you will see that going forward. He wont win because on the upper level playing field you are dealing with people with small waists with just as much if not more muscle mass. But if he tried to do the stay lean method on the way up he would have heard "not big enough, and blocky waist" instead of just "blocky waist". Is his waist even blockier now, heck yea it is. But he was never going to have a wasp waist no matter what he did. So I guess he took the sledgehammer way to a pro card. There will be no contest wins, there will be no wealth from bodybuilding coming in....it is what it is. But he got the pro card (which I guess was the goal).

There was nothing Nasser could have done to turn him into Flex.....its just the genetic hand your dealt and I guess you work with what you have to work with and try to make your strong points ultra strong to stand out.

The getting uber large fast method always worked better for ectomorphs anyways like Seth Shaw on that link i presented. Nobody gets a smaller waist when they add 55lbs of muscle mass over their waistline as a bodybuilder. No 45 year old man has the same waistline as he did when he was 22 either at the same bodyfat. Time and genetics are not giving.

Would i have taken that route with him, no i would have done things differently but he got the pro card and I think that was the goal.
I agree that Jo always was blockier, but his midsection has undeniably gotten worse (I think some of it may come down to his training style, alongside getting too out of shape in the offseason). I follow Jo and listen to him in podcast, and know his goals are to be on the O stage and do well, not just be a pro. He now said he plans to stay leaner in the offseason.

You say he wouldn’t have gotten there if he stayed lean, what do you mean? What did the excess bodyfat contribute to for his growth? Could he have done it at the same rate trying to stay shredded of course not, but that’s not what I’m saying he needed to do. I’m also not saying his waist should have gotten smaller gaining that much size, of course that’s a ridiculous concept. I’m just saying I think staying on the tighter side COULD have helped his midsection get LESS thick/blocky than with the approach he took. So maybe we even agree.

Just from knowing friends of friends and Jo as well as them openly talking about his protocols with Justin Compton, this wasn’t slin or force feeding thing at all. In almost every picture (he’s only done 4 shows) he has the same blocky wide waist proportions. Even as a natural, he had that look. Do I think that continuing to grow all over is probably a mistake? Yeah probably, but up until this CA Pro, it had worked and looked good every time. His USA winning shape is really good. But some bodybuilders need to growww grow longer than others. He’s just a guy that needs to fix other spots rather than just adding more scale weight.
He did definitely push the food, I’d say that’s undeniable just given the body composition no? “Push” is relative, if you’re putting on excessive bodyfat then it’s pushing, and like I said he has discussed eating off plan a decent amount in the past (which if not putting on excess bf I don’t see an issue with, but he was). That personally is just not an approach I’d take if I were him especially given his genetic structure. Just my personal opinion. Interested to see how he does staying leaner offseason in the future.
 
That guy was never going to be Flex Wheeler, Brian Buchanon, or Francis Benfatto onstage....never. He was blocky and endomorphic from the beginning. So I guess the choice was this.....and it truly was this. Never get an IFBB pro card (which looks like it was his goal) and I am 99% sure he would have never gotten a pro card if he went the stay lean all the way up and try to turn pro route. Why do i say that? Because with that blocky of waist and not so favorable shoulder width and subpar v taper there is one way and only one way to get an IFBB pro card. You have to get so massive that the blocky waist and the lack of v taper get over ruled onstage because you are so much larger than everyone else. I am not saying thats "good" I am just saying he would not have a pro card with those non favorable genetics unless he did what he did. You cannot turn that beginning physique into a Dennis Wolfe like physique. Thats the genetic hand he was dealt. And you will see that going forward. He wont win because on the upper level playing field you are dealing with people with small waists with just as much if not more muscle mass. But if he tried to do the stay lean method on the way up he would have heard "not big enough, and blocky waist" instead of just "blocky waist". Is his waist even blockier now, heck yea it is. But he was never going to have a wasp waist no matter what he did. So I guess he took the sledgehammer way to a pro card. There will be no contest wins, there will be no wealth from bodybuilding coming in....it is what it is. But he got the pro card (which I guess was the goal).

There was nothing Nasser could have done to turn him into Flex.....its just the genetic hand your dealt and I guess you work with what you have to work with and try to make your strong points ultra strong to stand out.

The getting uber large fast method always worked better for ectomorphs anyways like Seth Shaw on that link i presented. Nobody gets a smaller waist when they add 55lbs of muscle mass over their waistline as a bodybuilder. No 45 year old man has the same waistline as he did when he was 22 either at the same bodyfat. Time and genetics are not giving.

Would i have taken that route with him, no i would have done things differently but he got the pro card and I think that was the goal.
his posing doesn't help either

he should never do that elongated torso in the front double bi

that way of hitting the pose is only for guys like flex wheeler, Melvin Anthony, etc, and even then, they usually look better crunching the abs

but on a guy like this dude, its absolutely horrible, especially since he doesn't have lat flare in that shot
 
Sry dante but he shouldnt be a pro . Ifbb pro is not a status for anyone wanting it like you go learn to drive

If this was the case we wouldnt have 1000000000 tier 15 pros and having the ifbb pro card would mean something like it meant in the 90s …

9/10 geting pro card today wouldnt even place in regionals in the 90s

Sport went backwards big time imo

I will say it again being a shw is reserved for a select few is not a feat for the masses

Oh being shw and looking like a bodybuilder i mean

There is a reason flex , shawn and all these guys didnt forcefeed to 250 + … why ? Because the reason to be onstage is to look like a bodybuilder not weigh 250+

9/10 competiror zero proportion these days even nick walker came last show with waist looking 2x bigger

Bodybuilding used to be an art

Just my opinion sry for bad english
 
I don’t understand this concept of “you shouldn’t have a pro card unless you’re generically elite in bodybuilding.”

An NFL team has 53 players. Do all of them play? No. How many pro NFL players are there who have no contract? A LOT.

Can you turn pro at something by being genetically elite? Sure.

But what about the guy who turns pro because he wasn’t the most genetically elite and worked his ass off to get there more than anyone else? What makes a PRO? That- experience.

Don’t believe that… look at Tom Brady. He wasn’t genetically gifted and is the first to admit that. Neither was Peyton Manning.

It takes athletes to make money to keep this sport growing and alive. This isn’t a non-profit sport. 😂

We don’t even have enough top open pros to have more shows hence the comments above around most states only going up to classic or 212 above. So we need guys in this sport to dig in and chase pro cards.

I think the bigger issue is we don’t have as many genetic elite pro’s today willing to put in that same level of work. That’s what allows you to place and WIN as a pro.

But who deserves a pro card more- the guy who sacrificed 10 years of his life and never missed a meal living off a sofa… or the guy with elite genetics who wins one two years in following a crappy diet.

It takes both in any sport for it to be a success.
 
It wouldve also helped if he had been in contest shape
How is that not contest shape?
I'd look at lighting and every other competitor firsttt just so you dont say something that is clearly wrong.

This discussion sure got fuckin ruthless the past page or so lol
Madg, no disrepect but that is a truly terrible take. Joe shouldnt be a pro?
This just shows you have 0 idea who he is or have looked at any of his past shows...he's only done 4 by the way.

I dunno about you guys, but when i see Lebron James...or Wemby from the Spurs, i'm impressed. But i also know they were MADE to play basketball. They were given every gift at birth. So im not motivated watching that. But when i see Steph Curry or Kobe...knowing there are 10000000s of other 6'3 or 6'6 guards in the league, but these two just fucking worked harder and wanted it more. THAT makes me a bit more motivated. Yes, BBing is even more heavily leaned up on on the genetics route. But let's be real, people LOVE Ronnie because Ronnie was a nobody for the first couple years of his career. He was just one of the guys, until he decided to work more/harder/smarter/whatever. Dorian and even Jay werent blessed with the most beautiful physiques known to man, but man they flipped the switch. And there's a reason why the guys Madg mentioned (Flex and Shawn) were mostly known as guys who could neverrr put it all together. Because they coasted off what what little work they had to do...it was more so about what they could get away with rather then what they were doing. I will always choose the less than ideallll physique with a screw loose compared to the one with alllll the potential in the world. Obviously genetics + screw loose hard work = insanity...but it seeems like history has favored the screw loose for the most part.
 
I don’t understand this concept of “you shouldn’t have a pro card unless you’re generically elite in bodybuilding.”

An NFL team has 53 players. Do all of them play? No. How many pro NFL players are there who have no contract? A LOT.

Can you turn pro at something by being genetically elite? Sure.

But what about the guy who turns pro because he wasn’t the most genetically elite and worked his ass off to get there more than anyone else? What makes a PRO? That- experience.

Don’t believe that… look at Tom Brady. He wasn’t genetically gifted and is the first to admit that. Neither was Peyton Manning.

It takes athletes to make money to keep this sport growing and alive. This isn’t a non-profit sport. 😂

We don’t even have enough top open pros to have more shows hence the comments above around most states only going up to classic or 212 above. So we need guys in this sport to dig in and chase pro cards.

I think the bigger issue is we don’t have as many genetic elite pro’s today willing to put in that same level of work. That’s what allows you to place and WIN as a pro.

But who deserves a pro card more- the guy who sacrificed 10 years of his life and never missed a meal living off a sofa… or the guy with elite genetics who wins one two years in following a crappy diet.

It takes both in any sport for it to be a success.
How is that not contest shape?
I'd look at lighting and every other competitor firsttt just so you dont say something that is clearly wrong.

This discussion sure got fuckin ruthless the past page or so lol
Madg, no disrepect but that is a truly terrible take. Joe shouldnt be a pro?
This just shows you have 0 idea who he is or have looked at any of his past shows...he's only done 4 by the way.

I dunno about you guys, but when i see Lebron James...or Wemby from the Spurs, i'm impressed. But i also know they were MADE to play basketball. They were given every gift at birth. So im not motivated watching that. But when i see Steph Curry or Kobe...knowing there are 10000000s of other 6'3 or 6'6 guards in the league, but these two just fucking worked harder and wanted it more. THAT makes me a bit more motivated. Yes, BBing is even more heavily leaned up on on the genetics route. But let's be real, people LOVE Ronnie because Ronnie was a nobody for the first couple years of his career. He was just one of the guys, until he decided to work more/harder/smarter/whatever. Dorian and even Jay werent blessed with the most beautiful physiques known to man, but man they flipped the switch. And there's a reason why the guys Madg mentioned (Flex and Shawn) were mostly known as guys who could neverrr put it all together. Because they coasted off what what little work they had to do...it was more so about what they could get away with rather then what they were doing. I will always choose the less than ideallll physique with a screw loose compared to the one with alllll the potential in the world. Obviously genetics + screw loose hard work = insanity...but it seeems like history has favored the screw loose for the most part.
Agreed with both of these. I hope it didn’t come across as if I was being a hater on Jo… I’m not. Huge fan actually.

I just think he could take a better approach to his off-season body composition (which he plans to do) and his training (not sure if he plans to approach this differently).
 
An NFL team has 53 players. Do all of them play? No. How many pro NFL players are there who have no contract? A LOT.
ALL NFL players have contracts, they stipulate what that player is getting paid, among other things.
What all NFL players DON'T have in their contracts is guaranteed money if they get cut.
Plus every player in the NFL is required to sign the current contract with the Players Association. That also gives them certain protections.

This really has nothing to do with this thread but just serves as some clarification.
 

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