Best AAS for heart health?

[pickapeck]

Can you guys post the studies showing TRT test up regulates androgen receptors, I had a doctor tell me not long ago that it is wrong, that steroids down regulate not up regulate just like every other "receptor" in the body, he said I don't know where you bodybuilders are getting this nonsense??

Not the best article but it will get you going. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/89/10/5245/2844716

 

[pickapeck]

Can you guys post the studies showing TRT test up regulates androgen receptors, I had a doctor tell me not long ago that it is wrong, that steroids down regulate not up regulate just like every other "receptor" in the body, he said I don't know where you bodybuilders are getting this nonsense??

Also see pare 421 of this book https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0bc1/fc3860260aed749952d7d0692f5d1dd79d42.pdf

 

[TheSkunk]

Anavar can decimate your lipids, I know first hand. It's not always as safe as people think, probably due to it being used in minuscule doses historically and being run at 50+/day now. I used it at 50mg/day and it put my HDL in the teens.

Rather than completely going off, maybe read Emeric's thread(s) discussing 10mg test/day or 10mg/EOD and see some of the blood work coming back. I thought I spied some BW in there that showed LH and FSH production at 10mg/daily, not to mention a lot of guys seem to be coming in with solid test and excellent free test numbers.

 

[Rogue]

Androgen receptors actually upregulate with TRT. They do not function in the same way that receptors like dopamine or serotonin function (ie downregulate from usage of a dopamine drug like coke or adderall).

Those up regulate too, thats why you need to keep increasing the dosage, to keep the new receptors satisfied,

 

[Rogue]

If your anrogen levels are low.
your estrogen will naturally be low as well. Optimizing your Testosterone levels to where you are now
aromatizing proper can have beneficial results both directly and indirectly for your heart.

• Increases HDL cholesterol (the good kind)
• Decreases LDL cholesterol (the bad kind)
• Promotes blood clot formation, and also causes some changes that have the opposite effect
• Relaxes, smooths and dilates blood vessels so blood flow increases
• Soaks up free radicals, naturally occurring particles in the blood that can damage the arteries and other tissues.

Estrogen also affects the cardiovascular system in other ways that are as yet discussed medically. New research continues to give scientists and physicians more information – and raise more questions about this important and controversial hormone.
The use of AI's should really only be implement if absolutely necessary IMO.

 

[Swifto]

If your anrogen levels are low.
your estrogen will naturally be low as well. Optimizing your Testosterone levels to where you are now
aromatizing proper can have beneficial results both directly and indirectly for your heart.

• Increases HDL cholesterol (the good kind)
• Decreases LDL cholesterol (the bad kind)
• Promotes blood clot formation, and also causes some changes that have the opposite effect
• Relaxes, smooths and dilates blood vessels so blood flow increases
• Soaks up free radicals, naturally occurring particles in the blood that can damage the arteries and other tissues.

Estrogen also affects the cardiovascular system in other ways that are as yet discussed medically. New research continues to give scientists and physicians more information – and raise more questions about this important and controversial hormone.
The use of AI's should really only be implement if absolutely necessary IMO.

Nice copy and paste from here:

How To Pick the Best Sunscreen for Your Skin

With thousands of sunscreens on store shelves, how do you pick the best one? Get the facts about safe sunscreen ingredients, SPF numbers and how to apply it.

my.clevelandclinic.org

 

[Biggerp73]

from what I understand SERMs are preferable to AIs for this reason --- they do not lower estrogen, but only prevent estrogen from exterting effects on specific areas, thus resulting in less damage to the cardiovascular system.... is that right? probably going to just come off completely, forget the TRT (ive used HCG throughout so my balls should still work fine)... but wondering about using SERMS/AIS during pct...

 

[maldorf]

With your heart trouble now you are best off getting completely clean. Once you heal up, if you do, then you might look at some things if you absolutely cant give it all up for good. id recommend that you don't go back on ever unless its just true TRT (100 mg/wk or so). At least get off everything for now until your heart is healthy again. That's what I did a long time ago. I took nothing and I didn't really feel too bad during that year off. I was surprised. About 3 or 4 years later I had my heart attack and then went off for about 1 year again before going on dr. supervised TRT. At that time my test levels did not recover and I felt like shit. Not sure what changed between the first time I went clean and the second other than I had been using steroids longer and higher doses.

 

[Rogue]

Estrogen also affects the cardiovascular system in other ways that are as yet discussed medically. New research continues to give scientists and physicians more information – and raise more questions about this important and controversial hormone.
The use of AI's should really only be implement if absolutely necessary IMO.

The purpose of my reply was not the pasted benefits of estrogen (common knowledge to most), but the addition of an AI's which OP had asked about. In red above is my input on this If HEART HEALH is a concern . Some might have missed that.

 

[Swifto]

from what I understand SERMs are preferable to AIs for this reason --- they do not lower estrogen, but only prevent estrogen from exterting effects on specific areas, thus resulting in less damage to the cardiovascular system.... is that right? probably going to just come off completely, forget the TRT (ive used HCG throughout so my balls should still work fine)... but wondering about using SERMS/AIS during pct...

Low testosterone is also linked to heart problems, coming off may not be the best idea.

Yes, SERMs are better on lipids than AIs are. Going one step further, Raloxifene is the safest SERM in terms of cholesterol damage because it does not impair macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport (M-RCT), unlike Tamoxifen.

This can be seen in this study:

Sci Rep. 2016 Sep 7;6:32105. doi: 10.1038/srep32105.
Clinically used selective estrogen receptor modulators affect different steps of macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport.
Fernández-Suárez ME1,2, Escolà-Gil JC3,4,5, Pastor O2,6, Dávalos A7, Blanco-Vaca F3,4,5, Lasunción MA1,2, Martínez-Botas J1,2, Gómez-Coronado D1,2.
Author information
1Servicio de Bioquímica-Investigación, Hospital Universitario Ramón y Cajal, IRYCIS, Madrid, Spain.2CIBER de Fisiopatología de la Obesidad y Nutrición (CIBEROBN), Madrid, Spain.3Institut d'Investigacions Biomèdiques (IIB) Sant Pau, Barcelona, Spain.4Departament de Bioquímica i Biología Molecular, Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, Bellaterra, Spain.5CIBER de Diabetes y Enfermedades Metabólicas Asociadas (CIBERDEM), Spain.6Servicio de Bioquímica Clínica, Hospital Universitario Ramón y Cajal, IRYCIS, Madrid, Spain.7Instituto Madrileño de Estudios Avanzados (IMDEA)-Alimentación, Madrid, Spain.
Abstract
Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are widely prescribed drugs that alter cellular and whole-body cholesterol homeostasis. Here we evaluate the effect of SERMs on the macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport (M-RCT) pathway, which is mediated by HDL. Treatment of human and mouse macrophages with tamoxifen, raloxifene or toremifene induced the accumulation of cytoplasmic vesicles of acetyl-LDL-derived free cholesterol. The SERMs impaired cholesterol efflux to apolipoprotein A-I and HDL, and lowered ABCA1 and ABCG1 expression. These effects were not altered by the antiestrogen ICI 182,780 nor were they reproduced by 17β-estradiol. The treatment of mice with tamoxifen or raloxifene accelerated HDL-cholesteryl ester catabolism, thereby reducing HDL-cholesterol concentrations in serum. When [(3)H]cholesterol-loaded macrophages were injected into mice intraperitoneally, tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, decreased the [(3)H]cholesterol levels in serum, liver and feces. Both SERMs downregulated liver ABCG5 and ABCG8 protein expression, but tamoxifen reduced the capacity of HDL and plasma to promote macrophage cholesterol efflux to a greater extent than raloxifene. We conclude that SERMs interfere with intracellular cholesterol trafficking and efflux from macrophages. Tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, impair M-RCT in vivo. This effect is primarily attributable to the tamoxifen-mediated reduction of the capacity of HDL to promote cholesterol mobilization from macrophages.
PMID: 27601313 PMCID: PMC5013287 DOI: 10.1038/srep32105

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27601313

Again, go down to 10mg ED or EOD of TE or Test CYP injected subq in your stomach, then get BW done after 5-6 weeks and see where free and TT are.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Yes serms are safer than ai's and help good cholesterol. Ai's lower good cholesterol. I use raloxifene on cycle sometimes usually when my test dose is above 400-500, and asked friend dermatologist to write me a script for it. its also the only serm that increased bone mineral density in the bone via estrogenic effects. clomid and nolva decrease it so over time and not good for joints.

as for your situation and your health and heart health, you need to go down to 10 mgs sub-q daily. Jerry brainum says anything above 150 mgs testosterone isnt good. The first poster wrote 125 mgs, so I say you need to play it really safe , scratch that, you need to be careful right now, safe isnt enough for you currently. Dose very little as in 10 mgs every day. thats 70 mgs weekly. That's enough to keep you feeling decent to good hormonally wise

Do your labs every three months or so and watch your body repair itself. ANYTHING that would cause your body to slow progress , cut it the eff out , ANYTHING! Please update us, and keep sharing your story here.

 

[pickapeck]

Low testosterone is also linked to heart problems, coming off may not be the best idea.

Yes, SERMs are better on lipids than AIs are. Going one step further, Raloxifene is the safest SERM in terms of cholesterol damage because it does not impair macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport (M-RCT), unlike Tamoxifen.

This can be seen in this study:

Sci Rep. 2016 Sep 7;6:32105. doi: 10.1038/srep32105.
Clinically used selective estrogen receptor modulators affect different steps of macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport.
Fernández-Suárez ME1,2, Escolà-Gil JC3,4,5, Pastor O2,6, Dávalos A7, Blanco-Vaca F3,4,5, Lasunción MA1,2, Martínez-Botas J1,2, Gómez-Coronado D1,2.
Author information
1Servicio de Bioquímica-Investigación, Hospital Universitario Ramón y Cajal, IRYCIS, Madrid, Spain.2CIBER de Fisiopatología de la Obesidad y Nutrición (CIBEROBN), Madrid, Spain.3Institut d'Investigacions Biomèdiques (IIB) Sant Pau, Barcelona, Spain.4Departament de Bioquímica i Biología Molecular, Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, Bellaterra, Spain.5CIBER de Diabetes y Enfermedades Metabólicas Asociadas (CIBERDEM), Spain.6Servicio de Bioquímica Clínica, Hospital Universitario Ramón y Cajal, IRYCIS, Madrid, Spain.7Instituto Madrileño de Estudios Avanzados (IMDEA)-Alimentación, Madrid, Spain.
Abstract
Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are widely prescribed drugs that alter cellular and whole-body cholesterol homeostasis. Here we evaluate the effect of SERMs on the macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport (M-RCT) pathway, which is mediated by HDL. Treatment of human and mouse macrophages with tamoxifen, raloxifene or toremifene induced the accumulation of cytoplasmic vesicles of acetyl-LDL-derived free cholesterol. The SERMs impaired cholesterol efflux to apolipoprotein A-I and HDL, and lowered ABCA1 and ABCG1 expression. These effects were not altered by the antiestrogen ICI 182,780 nor were they reproduced by 17β-estradiol. The treatment of mice with tamoxifen or raloxifene accelerated HDL-cholesteryl ester catabolism, thereby reducing HDL-cholesterol concentrations in serum. When [(3)H]cholesterol-loaded macrophages were injected into mice intraperitoneally, tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, decreased the [(3)H]cholesterol levels in serum, liver and feces. Both SERMs downregulated liver ABCG5 and ABCG8 protein expression, but tamoxifen reduced the capacity of HDL and plasma to promote macrophage cholesterol efflux to a greater extent than raloxifene. We conclude that SERMs interfere with intracellular cholesterol trafficking and efflux from macrophages. Tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, impair M-RCT in vivo. This effect is primarily attributable to the tamoxifen-mediated reduction of the capacity of HDL to promote cholesterol mobilization from macrophages.
PMID: 27601313 PMCID: PMC5013287 DOI: 10.1038/srep32105

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27601313

Again, go down to 10mg ED or EOD of TE or Test CYP injected subq in your stomach, then get BW done after 5-6 weeks and see where free and TT are.

This doesn't make sense to me. Tamox increases HDL according to my bloodwork and has been known to have that effect.

 

[pickapeck]

Yes serms are safer than ai's and help good cholesterol. Ai's lower good cholesterol. I use raloxifene on cycle sometimes usually when my test dose is above 400-500, and asked friend dermatologist to write me a script for it. its also the only serm that increased bone mineral density in the bone via estrogenic effects. clomid and nolva decrease it so over time and not good for joints.

as for your situation and your health and heart health, you need to go down to 10 mgs sub-q daily. Jerry brainum says anything above 150 mgs testosterone isnt good. The first poster wrote 125 mgs, so I say you need to play it really safe , scratch that, you need to be careful right now, safe isnt enough for you currently. Dose very little as in 10 mgs every day. thats 70 mgs weekly. That's enough to keep you feeling decent to good hormonally wise

Do your labs every three months or so and watch your body repair itself. ANYTHING that would cause your body to slow progress , cut it the eff out , ANYTHING! Please update us, and keep sharing your story here.

There is an Israeli university publication that claims tam increased bone density in men. Maybe I can find it tonight. To make that blanket statement, Brainum is being pretty brash. Some people need a little more to reach therapeutic levels. As far as the OP with CHF, if it were me I would search for the best cardiologist and do what he says.

 

[Deleted member 121863]

You wrap up the whole thing with "go down to TRT and hang up the gloves"

You realize TRT is just low dose AAS, right?

The point is it keeps you at normal/high physiological levels your body is made to handle. It does not matter if it is endogenous (natural) or exogenous (supplemented). The levels matter. ALL other compounds are foreign

 

[warlock]

This doesn't make sense to me. Tamox increases HDL according to my bloodwork and has been known to have that effect.

I'm curious, how much did the tamoxifen increase your HDL? What dosage id you use? Was it during a cycle or TRT?

 

[warlock]

Low testosterone is also linked to heart problems, coming off may not be the best idea.

Yes, SERMs are better on lipids than AIs are. Going one step further, Raloxifene is the safest SERM in terms of cholesterol damage because it does not impair macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport (M-RCT), unlike Tamoxifen.

This can be seen in this study:

Sci Rep. 2016 Sep 7;6:32105. doi: 10.1038/srep32105.
Clinically used selective estrogen receptor modulators affect different steps of macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport.
Fernández-Suárez ME1,2, Escolà-Gil JC3,4,5, Pastor O2,6, Dávalos A7, Blanco-Vaca F3,4,5, Lasunción MA1,2, Martínez-Botas J1,2, Gómez-Coronado D1,2.
Author information
1Servicio de Bioquímica-Investigación, Hospital Universitario Ramón y Cajal, IRYCIS, Madrid, Spain.2CIBER de Fisiopatología de la Obesidad y Nutrición (CIBEROBN), Madrid, Spain.3Institut d'Investigacions Biomèdiques (IIB) Sant Pau, Barcelona, Spain.4Departament de Bioquímica i Biología Molecular, Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, Bellaterra, Spain.5CIBER de Diabetes y Enfermedades Metabólicas Asociadas (CIBERDEM), Spain.6Servicio de Bioquímica Clínica, Hospital Universitario Ramón y Cajal, IRYCIS, Madrid, Spain.7Instituto Madrileño de Estudios Avanzados (IMDEA)-Alimentación, Madrid, Spain.
Abstract
Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are widely prescribed drugs that alter cellular and whole-body cholesterol homeostasis. Here we evaluate the effect of SERMs on the macrophage-specific reverse cholesterol transport (M-RCT) pathway, which is mediated by HDL. Treatment of human and mouse macrophages with tamoxifen, raloxifene or toremifene induced the accumulation of cytoplasmic vesicles of acetyl-LDL-derived free cholesterol. The SERMs impaired cholesterol efflux to apolipoprotein A-I and HDL, and lowered ABCA1 and ABCG1 expression. These effects were not altered by the antiestrogen ICI 182,780 nor were they reproduced by 17β-estradiol. The treatment of mice with tamoxifen or raloxifene accelerated HDL-cholesteryl ester catabolism, thereby reducing HDL-cholesterol concentrations in serum. When [(3)H]cholesterol-loaded macrophages were injected into mice intraperitoneally, tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, decreased the [(3)H]cholesterol levels in serum, liver and feces. Both SERMs downregulated liver ABCG5 and ABCG8 protein expression, but tamoxifen reduced the capacity of HDL and plasma to promote macrophage cholesterol efflux to a greater extent than raloxifene. We conclude that SERMs interfere with intracellular cholesterol trafficking and efflux from macrophages. Tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, impair M-RCT in vivo. This effect is primarily attributable to the tamoxifen-mediated reduction of the capacity of HDL to promote cholesterol mobilization from macrophages.
PMID: 27601313 PMCID: PMC5013287 DOI: 10.1038/srep32105

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27601313

Again, go down to 10mg ED or EOD of TE or Test CYP injected subq in your stomach, then get BW done after 5-6 weeks and see where free and TT are.

Swifto,

Is Raloxifene a good alternative to nolvadex if on TRT?

 

[maldorf]

Regarding Tamoxien and Raloxifene:
"On the downside, SERMs have a number of side effects that can be serious. "There are a couple of problems," says Myron Gerson, MD, cardiologist and professor of medicine and biology at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine in Ohio. Most concerning is that tamoxifen, in particular, increases the risk of blood clots in the lungs or legs, as well as increasing the risk of stroke. And it can also increase the risk of cancer of the uterus. Raloxifene is less likely to have these effects."

Treatment for High Cholesterol

Both medication and lifestyle changes can help you improve your cholesterol numbers.

www.everydayhealth.com

 

[Swifto]

Swifto,

Is Raloxifene a good alternative to nolvadex if on TRT?

Yes, I believe so. Toremifene would also be a good option.

Another study below showed the effects on lipids when 80mg/ED Toremifene was administered. Yes, I know the study isn't perfect and is on men receiving androgen-deprivation therapy for prostate cancer. But its effects are fairly significant.

Toremifene improves lipid profiles in men receiving androgen-deprivation therapy for prostate cancer: interim analysis of a multicenter phase III study - PubMed

Toremifene significantly decreased total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and triglycerides, and increased HDL cholesterol in men receiving ADT for prostate cancer.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You first goal here is not to use an anti-oestrogen at all. Use daily TE or T CYP shots subq and the vast majority wont even need an AI or SERM. Then if you require one and E is higher than normal and you're getting symtoms and seen BW, then I'd go with either Ralox or Tore.

 

[Swifto]

Effects of raloxifene on gonadotrophins, sex hormones, bone turnover and lipids in healthy elderly men - PubMed

In healthy elderly man, raloxifene 120 mg/day for 3 months increased LH, FSH and sex steroid hormones. Potentially beneficial effects were the small but significant decrease in TChol and the trend towards a decrease in LDL-c. Negative effects were the trend towards a decrease in HDL-c and the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[gungalunga]

Regarding Tamoxien and Raloxifene:
"On the downside, SERMs have a number of side effects that can be serious. "There are a couple of problems," says Myron Gerson, MD, cardiologist and professor of medicine and biology at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine in Ohio. Most concerning is that tamoxifen, in particular, increases the risk of blood clots in the lungs or legs, as well as increasing the risk of stroke. And it can also increase the risk of cancer of the uterus. Raloxifene is less likely to have these effects."

Treatment for High Cholesterol

Both medication and lifestyle changes can help you improve your cholesterol numbers.

www.everydayhealth.com

You have to remember though, it's most likely these tests are being done on post-menopausal women.