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bigkiwi... hows the clen/slin working?

big_byrd52

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hey, kiwi, i havent seen anything on this for about month or so. how are the gains coming for ya?
 

BIGKIWI

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Went really well up untill 1 week before the show , then I hhad my abcess and was in hospital for the week. I got up to around 560mcg clen a day split up throughout day. I found was getting best results at around 480mcg every day would be fuller and literally feeling bigger. The amount of food I was eating was insane I think I actually got up to 15meals day and 5 shakes. I will deffinately be doing 10week straight course clen for my next show and know that I can be only be growing not going catabolic :)
 

Steak Helmet

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Hense the name BIGKIWI

Damn I wish I had the cash flow to eat that much :)

Can't wait to see some pics when you heal.
 

big_byrd52

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thats f-in insane Kiwi! i know u stay lean offseason anyway, but were u hardening up while growing too? ur theory about growing faster because of accelerated metabolism makes sense to me and will try it as soon as my show is over.

as far a slin/clen combo, does this make one need more carbs for the slin to avoid hypo? aprox whats the difference needed?

roughly how many cals are u taking in a day?
thanks, and sucks bout ur abscess, bigger and better next year though!
 

chris250

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BigKiwi...

Did you do your own diet and gear program for the show...or did someone help you out...

What weight did you start at, and what did you end up at...

Just curious...and trying to learn some more ...

thanks for your time,

chris
 

Mr_Magoo

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cant believe u got that high of a dose in clen although i have hit 600 in a day b4
 

big_byrd52

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hey guys, ive been lookin into this theory and found some promising research to back up kiwi's hypothesis.

posted by nandi at CEM:
Why didn't they do this study in people?


Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Jan;282(1):E31-7

Role of IGF-I and IGFBPs in the changes of mass and phenotype induced in rat soleus muscle by clenbuterol.

Awede BL, Thissen JP, Lebacq J.

Unite de Physiologie Generale des Muscles, Universite Catholique de Louvain, 1200 Brussels, Belgium.

Clenbuterol induces hypertrophy and a slow-to-fast phenotype change in skeletal muscle, but the signaling mechanisms remain unclear. We hypothesized that clenbuterol could act via local expression of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I). Administration of clenbuterol to 3-mo-old female Wistar rats resulted in a 10 and 13% increase of soleus muscle mass after 3 and 9 days, respectively, reaching 16% after 4 wk. When associated with triiodothyronine, clenbuterol induced a dramatic slow-to-fast phenotype change. In parallel, clenbuterol administration induced in soleus muscle a fivefold increase in IGF-I mRNA levels associated with an eightfold increase in IGF-binding protein (IGFBP)-4 and a fivefold increase of IGFBP-5 mRNA levels on day 3. This increased IGF-I gene expression was associated with an increase in muscle IGF-I content, already detected on day 1 and persisting until day 5 without increase in serum IGF-I concentrations. These data show that muscle hypertrophy induced by clenbuterol is associated with a local increase in muscle IGF-I content. They suggest that clenbuterol-induced muscle hypertrophy could be mediated by local production of IGF-I.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kiwi, this rise in local igf, not liver igf, seems to explain your constant hunger and the reason why blood sugar drops more than normal since igf works similar to insulin at shuttling glucose to muscles but not to adipose tissue.

insynct999:
BESIDES THE THERMO EFFECT ANY ANABOIC AND/OR ANTI-CATABOLIC ACTION OF NOTE IS NOT SEEN IN HUMANS AND THE DOSES USED IN ANIAML STUDIES WERE VERY HIGH TO ACHIEVE THE REPARTITIONING EFFECTS

the key to these studies has been high doses of clen which u are certianly reaching.
 

big_byrd52

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furthermore...

"When associated with triiodothyronine, clenbuterol induced a dramatic slow-to-fast phenotype change"

I've read about this fiber type change before.But can it,or does it occur at all in humans?

Answer by nandi:
Massive doses of clen in the rat elevated IGF-1 and when they gave it along with massive doses of T3 it induced that fiber shift. I do not have the paper in front of me so I cannot tell you right now how much they used but I recall being struck by it being a giant number. I will get back to you on exactly how much they administered.

I have seen rat studies where both clenbuterol and T3 given seperately increase the fast twitch fibers at the expense of the slow ones. It kind of makes sense if you recall one thing thyroid hormone does is upregulate the beta 2 receptor, which clen acts on. It would make even more sense that they would act synergistically to make this change.

I've never seen anything like this described in humans.

something else to chew on.
 

BIGKIWI

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Hi big_Byrd it does totally make sense and I deffinately will back up the theory with my own body experiment :)

The one thing I do notice now that I am in offseason is my food intake is nearly halved only eating about 8 meals and 5 shakes a day now :)

Chris I was 282 at about 7% when started dieting and got down
to about 275 at 4% the week before the show before I got sick. I do everything myself just try learn as much as possible and do cycle etc to the best of my ability :)
 

JustWannaBeHuge

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BIGKIWI said:
only eating about 8 meals and 5 shakes a day now :)



dude, only 8 meals a day? and only 5 shakes? come on now, if you wanna pack on mass you gotta eat more hehehe j/k

thats a hella lot of food damnn


JW
 

raybravo

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http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2730&highlight=big+kiwi
bro in that above thread u mention about using clen to increase insulin sensitivity in Beta3 receptors
now my question is , first of all the beta adrenergic system is shut down at high insulin levels , so how is that possible ?
also , clen is reducing the number of glut -4 transporters if i remember right .
what are your thoughts on this bro ??
and also what dosage of electrolyte drinks are u taking in at that clen dosage to counteract any possiblity of clen cramps ??
 

big_byrd52

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hey raybravo, in this study it shows that clen administration to zucker rats, while no change in bodyweight, reflected a redistribution of weight fron abdominal fat reduction to thigh muscle increase.

Effects of clenbuterol on insulin resistance in conscious obese zucker rats. Pan, Shujia J., Joe Hancock, Zhenping Ding, Donovan Fogt, Mancheong Lee, and John L. Ivy. Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas 78712


The present study was conducted to determine the effect of chronic administration of the long-acting ß2-adrenergic agonist clenbuterol on rats that are genetically prone to insulin resistance and impaired glucose tolerance. Obese Zucker rats (fa/fa) were given 1 mg/kg of clenbuterol by oral intubation daily for 5 wk. Controls received an equivalent volume of water according to the same schedule. At the end of the treatment, rats were catheterized for euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic (15 mU insulin•kg«minus»1•min«minus»1) clamping. Clenbuterol did not change body weight compared with the control group but caused a redistribution of body weight: leg muscle weights increased, and abdominal fat weight decreased. The glucose infusion rate needed to maintain euglycemia and the rate of glucose disappearance were greater in the clenbuterol-treated rats. Furthermore, plasma insulin levels were decreased, and the rate of glucose uptake into hindlimb muscles and abdominal fat was increased in the clenbuterol-treated rats. This increased rate of glucose uptake was accompanied by a parallel increase in the rate of glycogen synthesis. The increase in muscle glucose uptake could not be ascribed to an increase in the glucose transport protein GLUT-4 in clenbuterol-treated rats. We conclude that chronic clenbuterol treatment reduces the insulin resistance of the obese Zucker rat by increasing insulin-stimulated muscle and adipose tissue glucose uptake. The improvements noted may be related to the repartitioning of body weight between tissues.

Nandi points out that "one needs to be careful extrapolating insulin related metabolic studies in rats to humans. Rats don't seem to have pancreatic beta-2 receptors so the fall in plasma insulin levels resulted from more efficient glucose transport into peripheral tissue.

In contrast, humans do have beta-2 receptors in the pancreas, and clenbuterol stimulates insulin release. It is not clear that clen would improve insulin resistance in humans, since even though there may be improved glucose transport in humans due to clen (yet to be shown), there may also turn out to be an increase in insulin output.
In contrast, humans do have beta-2 receptors in the pancreas, and clenbuterol stimulates insulin release. It is not clear that clen would improve insulin resistance in humans, since even though there may be improved glucose transport in humans due to clen (yet to be shown), there may also turn out to be an increase in insulin output.
 

raybravo

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yeah , the study isnt transferring to humans right ?
 

big_byrd52

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raybravo said:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2730&highlight=big+kiwi
bro in that above thread u mention about using clen to increase insulin sensitivity in Beta3 receptors
now my question is , first of all the beta adrenergic system is shut down at high insulin levels , so how is that possible ?
also , clen is reducing the number of glut -4 transporters if i remember right .
what are your thoughts on this bro ??
and also what dosage of electrolyte drinks are u taking in at that clen dosage to counteract any possiblity of clen cramps ??
ray, another study shows that it is epinephrine that supresses insulin induced muscle glycogen repletion. Clenbuteral actually prevents epinepherine from antagonizing insulin stimulated muscle glucose uptake.

This effect might be of concern to someone using insulin. Epinephrine, along with glucagon, GH, and cortisol is one of the body's main counterregulatory hormones that prevent hypoglycemia. (Epinephrine is what gives you the clammy sweats and shakes when you become hypoglycemic.) Epinephrine stimulates glucose production in the liver and blocks glucose uptake by skeletal muscle to preserve glucose for the brain. By preventing epinephrine's inhibition of skeletal muscle glucose uptake, clen could lead to more profound hypoglycemia.


Hunt DG, Ding Z, Ivy JL.

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas 78712, USA.

In the present study, we investigated the effects of chronic clenbuterol treatment on insulin-stimulated glucose uptake in the presence of epinephrine in isolated rat skeletal muscle. Insulin (50 microU/ml) increased glucose uptake in both fast-twitch (epitrochlearis) and slow-twitch (soleus) muscles. In the presence of 24 nM epinephrine, insulin-stimulated glucose uptake was completely suppressed. This suppression of glucose uptake by epinephrine was accompanied by an increase in the intracellular concentration of glucose 6-phosphate and a decrease in insulin-receptor substrate-1-associated phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (IRS-1/PI3-kinase) activity. Clenbuterol treatment had no direct effect on insulin-stimulated glucose uptake. However, after clenbuterol treatment, epinephrine was ineffective in attenuating insulin-stimulated muscle glucose uptake. This ineffectiveness of epinephrine to suppress insulin-stimulated glucose uptake occurred in conjunction with its inability to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose 6-phosphate and attenuate IRS-1/PI3-kinase activity. Results of this study indicate that the effectiveness of epinephrine to inhibit insulin-stimulated glucose uptake is severely diminished in muscle from rats pretreated with clenbuterol.

There seems to be several mitigating factors that are related to clen and insulin and muscle growth.
So far what we have gathered is that:
1- clen acts to supress epinephrine thereby increasing insulin-stimulated glucose uptake into muscles.

2-clen possibly stimulates insulin production in the pancreas by acting on beta 2 receptors.

3-mega doses of clen stimulate IGF-1 production(acts like insulin for glucose transport to muscles but NOT to adipose tissue!) as well as facillitating a phenotype change in muscle from slow to fast twich.(fast twich fibers are responsible for most of the hypertrohy, ie growth.)

4-the IGF increase is located in the MUSCLE which is where it exerts said ANABOLIC properties. this is different than the liver igf production which can be increased by taking orals.

5-thyroid hormone UPREGULATES the beta 2 receptors in which clen exerts its effects.

6-and of course clens thermogenic/fatburning properties.

i am still researching this, as it has captivated my intrest! KIWI, i really think ur onto something! ill get back to ya soon.
 

big_byrd52

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raybravo said:
yeah , the study isnt transferring to humans right ?
true, but what i was getting at is that since we DO have beta 2 receptors and clen will icrease insulin production. also localized muscle igf levels at on non-insulin stimulated glucose transport.
this explains extreme hunger, and how he feels that "insulin acts on beta recptors" and why he feels he grows better on his diet when metabolism is racing.
 

raybravo

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dont even think we can transfer the mega doses onto humans really , and to an extent of fibre conversion and localised igf-1 production , all seems unreal bro. we're talking micrograms here !
 

raybravo

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big_byrd52 said:


2-clen possibly stimulates insulin production in the pancreas by acting on beta 2 receptors.

whats the importance of this i dont understand ???
i just feel insulin and clenbuterol dont mix .
 

mike man

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BigKiwi

1, How did you deal with the clen headaches at those high doses if that was a problem at all for you?
2, How did you ramp up (how many times per day at what dosage and how many days between increases?) your clen doses getting to a 560mcg dose split throughout the day?
3, Do you feel that taking slin (what doses, how many times per day and a ramp up too, or just the same dose every shot?) along with it is absolutely necessary to get the full benefits, or could one take just clen by itself along with gear and hgh and still get dramatic results?
4, What type of carb intake did you have per day to match your slin shots?
5, How did you come off your clen dosages, ramp back down over a period of days/weeks or just come off cold turkey with little to no rebound?
6, What type of rebound or side effects if any did you experience after discontinuing use of the clen/slin combo?
Maybe some of this is covered in your original thread, but I am in a bit of a hurry right now and couldn't research it yet.
Also, as a side note, what type of effect would this possibly have on heart muscle tissue if it does actually "change" muscle fiber type? This could be a VERY important question to ask oneself. Remember, your health should come first when striving for your goals!
Thanks.
 

BrooklynJuice

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Dont forget to take TAURINE with clen.
 

big_byrd52

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raybravo said:

whats the importance of this i dont understand ???
i just feel insulin and clenbuterol dont mix .
this is important because the theory is that clen/slin combo, in kiwis wordsfrom original post:

I have often wondered why I gain muscle when on clen and so many others say it has no anabolic properties apart from losing fat. I have come to the conclusion that because I am constant insulin user this combined with the clen gives me that extra muscle. I only just realised this the other day as my blood sugar levels kept on getting so low after my second dose of clen hours after I had had my first insulin shot. Because clen works on your Beta3 receptors thus making you more insulin sensitive I now realise that using it in conjunction with the insulin has helped my growth throughout the dieting stage on so many occasions. My new theory is that if it enhances insulin sensitvity to get the best effects why go off before a show ? the only reason I stop clen usually is I when I feel no fat loss occurring usually after 3-4 weeks. I will use clen for 12 weeks on the theory of enhancing the insulin to the fullest just my thought for the day


it is commonly accepted that INSULIN IS the MOST anablic hormone in the body. kiwi is usng high dose clen along with continious insulin administration. research is revealing that these two compounds act in synergy to produce an anabolic enviroment, in humans and not JUST animals.

the idea that it "inhances insulin sensitivty" might not be completely accurate, BUT, clen blocks the role epinepherine to inhibit glycogen uptake into muscle, leading to the need for more carbs which would explain why his BG continued to drop after clen dose. on top this, clen stimulates futher insulin production as well as igf.
the growth he is refering to is likely because of these actions creating a more anabolic enviroment.

in the study which showed local igf icrease and phenotype shift, the rats were given 1mg/kg of bodyweight. i know his dose isnt close to this, but at 500-600mcg a day, surely he is experiencing SOME of igf production if non of the phenotype switch, which can be done to an extent through heavy resistance training alone.

nonetheless, clen does create an anabolic enviroment and one must provide the needed elements. aside from the obvious, androgens, FOOD. most people restrict calories when on clen so reports of no anabolic properties are a given if theres a calorie deficit.

my thinking is that this could be applied to the gh burst cycle while eating everything in site for 6 days or more. while the fat burning effects continue in the following days. the lipoltyic properties of gh, and thermo prop of cle should prevent excessive fat accumilation during that time.
Are you picturing the huge surge in insulin and glycogen transport due to exo-slin, clen stimulated insulin production, increased igf from high dose clen and high dose gh(what is it, 1iu of gh stimulates 4-6mcg of igf--ray, i got that from u over at anisci;) so 20iu=80-120mcg igf!) clen has also shown to induce skeletal muscle protein synthesis by increasing translation of mRNA at the early time of its administration, this mechanism might be involved in the rapid increase of IGF-I peptide in response to clenbuterol.

Thats one hell of an anabolic enviroment!
In the study i posted earlier, it said that there was a 10 and 13% increase in muscle mass at days 3 and 9 respectivly, and 16% by day 28. this supports that the 6 days is enough time to induce significant muscle growth.
 

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