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Bio-identical hormones (test, gh, insulin, igf)

TBF, it's only bioidentical in up to 5 ng/mL concentrations in pregnant women (it is analogous to the placentally-secreted GH isoform). It's stimulated in men only by hCG use. If its existence in some edge case in humans is sufficient argument for you to add it to your stack because "health," well, that'd be pretty silly.
Nandrolones give me one whopper of case of backne from my shoulders to my glutes. I have little dark spots all over my back from it now. My dermatologist said she could get rid of them but it would be cosmetic and many thousands of dollars. I'll live with it. With tanning, over the years they have faded but I still notice them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I suppose. Ugh...
 
Well, your first mistake is listening to anything that luki says with respect to health.

The notion that "bio-identical" hormones are healthier than their synthetic counterparts is patently false.

Fundamentally, if you or I had any interest in respecting nature's tightly regulated endocrine system with respect to our health we wouldn't insult that regulatory system (e.g., IGF-I declines with age probably because it promotes lifespan, that is, we need to stop growing after the pubertal growth spurt, or we'll die from diseases like cancers more quickly). Note that all of these drugs increase IGF-I (testosterone, rhGH, rhI, rhIGF-I).

Of course Test, GH, slin, IGF-I, are all highly potent anabolic agents, because growth & metabolism are some of their primary evolutionary functions. Testosterone is anabolic particularly in skeletal muscle & sex organs; GH (of which there are 2 primary endogenous isoforms in adult men, 20K & 22K -GH, while in isolation it acts generally as a catabolic or energy-releasing compound, in vivo it serves complementary functions a la IGF-I that include longitudinal & total body growth, with IGF-I existing in its various forms (not many of which are free or unbound IGF-I, but rather exist in various complexes with binding proteins & the ALS, that variously both stimulate and inhibit uptake into certain tissues).

And yet, pharmacopeia derives fantastic profits, not to mind people that use modified forms of these drugs derive fantastic benefits from, chemical modifications to these hormones that exist endogenously.

To tease out a bit the absurdity of the "bio-identical" dogma among many bros, let's look at the case of "slin" (injectable recombinant human insulin preparations). Virtually everybody seems to think "slin" is bioidentical, but only Regular Human Insulin preparations (synonymous with neutral or soluble insulin) can be fairly described as "bio-identical" with respect to chemical structure, but actually it is not "bio-identical" in its biological effects because neither its pharmacokinetics nor pharmacokinetics are exactly the same as pancreatically-secreted insulin, because injections alter its time-course in blood, affect its distribution, etc. The broader universe of "slin," i.e., rhI preparations, are modified forms of regular insulin; modified to derive greater efficacy and provide for use cases where regular human insulin are inappropriate (e.g., stably-controlled blood glucose with a once-daily injection, as with Insulin glargine or Lantus [the glargine modification reduces insulin's solubility in extracellular fluid, delaying absorption into the systemic circulation]).

Injectable testosterone formulations provide prodrugs to testosterone, only testosterone aqueous suspensions come close to being arguably "bio-identical" (but is actually not even that close, because of its bimodal pharmacokinetics due to distinct pharmacokinetic profiles inherent to the dissolution from residual solid material); RhGH provides the more anabolic of the primary GH isoforms, and not the other, or third in the case of pregnant women (there is also a placentally-secreted GH isoform); RhIGF-I is bound up by various binary, ternary, IGFBP complexes, etc, altering its biological effects (its non-naturally occurring LR3 analogue is a more anabolically potent form, but not superior per se).

I could go on... Anyway, I am really looking forward to the ruffled responses to things that I never said.
I see what you are saying.

Even though, 'safe roids' like mast & primo are wrecking more and more people's lipids on even low 100-200mg doses(let alone tren, eq etc.). In that case, test only(even higher) would be the safest bet.
 
I assure you that I hold no grudge for what you perceive as a significant slight. It wasn't significant, though. Your basic template for responding to me with basic irreverence and what has become your signature, "no hate, just..." certainly does makes you look like the passive-aggressive little shit that lives within your large but noncompetitive frame from where I sit, though.
You behave exactly the same as one user who licked balls on my PM and when I wrote him a few words of simple truth, suddenly there was a 180 degree change and attempts to insult me but forgive me - it doesn't bother me, I'm used to it. Another hero from the internet who would go unnoticed live with his pants full of shit🤷🏻‍♂️😂
 
I see what you are saying.

Even though, 'safe roids' like mast & primo are wrecking more and more people's lipids on even low 100-200mg doses(let alone tren, eq etc.). In that case, test only(even higher) would be the safest bet.
This has always been my understanding. @Type-IIx is this not correct?
 
The notion that "bio-identical" hormones are healthier than their synthetic counterparts is patently false.

Fundamentally, if you or I had any interest in respecting nature's tightly regulated endocrine system with respect to our health we wouldn't insult that regulatory system (e.g., IGF-I declines with age probably because it promotes lifespan, that is, we need to stop growing after the pubertal growth spurt, or we'll die from diseases like cancers more quickly). Note that all of these drugs increase IGF-I (testosterone, rhGH, rhI, rhIGF-I).

Of course Test, GH, slin, IGF-I, are all highly potent anabolic agents, because growth & metabolism are some of their primary evolutionary functions. Testosterone is anabolic particularly in skeletal muscle & sex organs; GH (of which there are 2 primary endogenous isoforms in adult men, 20K & 22K -GH, while in isolation it acts generally as a catabolic or energy-releasing compound, in vivo it serves complementary functions a la IGF-I that include longitudinal & total body growth, with IGF-I existing in its various forms (not many of which are free or unbound IGF-I, but rather exist in various complexes with binding proteins & the ALS, that variously both stimulate and inhibit uptake into certain tissues).
Are you suggesting that our evolutionary biology has adapted to cause GH and IGF-1 levels to drop with age to prolong our lives by avoiding cancer? Is this your personal theory or is this cited somewhere? You're usually Johnny On The Spot with references but this sounds more like opinion and speculation than science. And the free and bound forms of IGF-1, wouldn't these binding agents also apply to rhIGF-1 and LR3 as well?

I agree with the premise of your argument to a degree and I'm not suggesting the massive assault of supra-physiological doses of what really are essentially bio-identical hormones is a good health step forward but certainly you must agree that these bio-identical forms of human hormones and peptides are not equivalently as offensive and aggressive as their analogous counterparts in replacement dosages for which the analogs have no "replacement" dosages bc there is no endogenous level to replace. My counterpoint is only that engineered forms of these molecules cannot be (or have not yet been shown to be) superior to their natural and/or manufactured bio-identical counterparts. In fact isn't this the very reason for isolating these exact chemicals in the first place?

And yet, pharmacopeia derives fantastic profits, not to mind people that use modified forms of these drugs derive fantastic benefits from, chemical modifications to these hormones that exist endogenously.

To tease out a bit the absurdity of the "bio-identical" dogma among many bros, let's look at the case of "slin" (injectable recombinant human insulin preparations). Virtually everybody seems to think "slin" is bioidentical, but only Regular Human Insulin preparations (synonymous with neutral or soluble insulin) can be fairly described as "bio-identical" with respect to chemical structure, but actually it is not "bio-identical" in its biological effects because neither its pharmacokinetics nor pharmacokinetics are exactly the same as pancreatically-secreted insulin, because injections alter its time-course in blood, affect its distribution, etc. The broader universe of "slin," i.e., rhI preparations, are modified forms of regular insulin; modified to derive greater efficacy and provide for use cases where regular human insulin are inappropriate (e.g., stably-controlled blood glucose with a once-daily injection, as with Insulin glargine or Lantus [the glargine modification reduces insulin's solubility in extracellular fluid, delaying absorption into the systemic circulation]).
I'm just going to disregard the financial point as a misstep and just move past it. Here, you seem to be suggesting the opposite of your other claim in that recombinant human insulin (e.g. Humulin R) can "fairly be described as" bio-identical only that the pharmacodynamics of an injection vs endogenous insulin release are not analogous. You're making my counterpoint argument for me here, yes? At any rate, again agreed. This is precisely why I use R preps over their shorter and longer-acting analogous counterparts. Not because those preps have no merit but rather that R preps seem to have a more natural glucose clearing response curve.

Injectable testosterone formulations provide prodrugs to testosterone, only testosterone aqueous suspensions come close to being arguably "bio-identical" (but is actually not even that close, because of its bimodal pharmacokinetics due to distinct pharmacokinetic profiles inherent to the dissolution from residual solid material); RhGH provides the more anabolic of the primary GH isoforms, and not the other, or third in the case of pregnant women (there is also a placentally-secreted GH isoform); RhIGF-I is bound up by various binary, ternary, IGFBP complexes, etc, altering its biological effects (its non-naturally occurring LR3 analogue is a more anabolically potent form, but not superior per se).

I could go on... Anyway, I am really looking forward to the ruffled responses to things that I never said.
Now this one really leaves me scratching my head. While testosterone cypionate, as one example, is a prodrug to testosterone, once esterase has done it's work, the remaining testosterone molecule is of course biologically identical even though we might consider it a metabolite of test cyp at that point. Again, the only difference is in the pharmacodynamics of an injection vs endogenous release of the hormone. Or are you saying that replacement levels are more deleterious bc of some action on aromatase? Clean this up for me, please. I'm not sure what is implied here.

I'm not ruffled at all. I love these discussions. I'm just asking you to expand on this a bit. I can't believe I missed this yesterday. This all seems counter to previous assertions you've made which were quite convincing indeed. But here, this seems more argumentative than revelatory. (Which normally your work certainly is.)

Thought-provoking post though as usual, my friend. Edit: Additionally, I want to add that I hope you enter the research field and are published. And I mean that as sincerely and iterally as I can. Your research, assertions, even your vocabulary are among the best I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot. Even superior to many of the published articles we cite.
 
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Nandrolones give me one whopper of case of backne from my shoulders to my glutes. I have little dark spots all over my back from it now. My dermatologist said she could get rid of them but it would be cosmetic and many thousands of dollars. I'll live with it. With tanning, over the years they have faded but I still notice them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I suppose. Ugh...
Something that has seemed to encourage no cystic acne , and possibly clearer skin is doxycycline on deca. Start 100 mgs a couple nights before starting deca. Use it esp timing it close to when deca inject kicks in. Use sunscreen bc even fifteen mins sun a day,on doxycycline, will make skin red. This is the number one cause of wrinkles, again face.
 
Something that has seemed to encourage no cystic acne , and possibly clearer skin is doxycycline on deca. Start 100 mgs a couple nights before starting deca. Use it esp timing it close to when deca inject kicks in. Use sunscreen bc even fifteen mins sun a day,on doxycycline, will make skin red. This is the number one cause of wrinkles, again face.
If only! Unfortunately, I can't take any of the cycline class of antibiotics due to acute allergic reaction. But yes, that would most certainly help if I could.
 
Here, you seem to be suggesting the opposite of your other claim in that recombinant human insulin (e.g. Humulin R) can "fairly be described as" bio-identical only that the pharmacodynamics of an injection vs endogenous insulin release are not analogous. You're making my counterpoint argument for me here, yes? At any rate, again agreed. This is precisely why I use R preps over their shorter and longer-acting analogous counterparts. Not because those preps have no merit but rather that R preps seem to have a more natural glucose clearing response curve.

Now this is intriguing! This is my first of hearing that out of all the different timed releases forms of insulin on the market, Humulin R is viewed as the most bio-identical with how endogenous insulin clears glucose from the system. 🤔
 
@Type-IIx is correct to my knowledge. The chemical formula is the chemical formula, to human knowledge there shouldn't be anything deeper/different about a "bioidentical" form of testosterone compared to a Test-E. Obviously there's a group on the end changing absorption rate, and that kind of thing can yield differing effects, but if it goes beyond that we (science) do not know the mechanism.

It's largely just (as with so many things in life) a ploy to make you spend more money on something that is, in essence, worthless over its cheaper replacement.
 
Now this is intriguing! This is my first of hearing that out of all the different timed releases forms of insulin on the market, Humulin R is viewed as the most bio-identical with how endogenous insulin clears glucose from the system. 🤔
* based on my test strips, yes.
 
It's largely just (as with so many things in life) a ploy to make you spend more money on something that is, in essence, worthless over its cheaper replacement.
What does this mean? Testosterone is expensive compared to...???
 
The notion that "bio-identical" hormones are healthier than their synthetic counterparts is patently false.
How does this apply to women's estrogen replacement? I was under the impression for men, it doesn't matter, but for women the bio-identical HRT replacement is safer.
 
Makes sense, at least with your results with how glucose is cleared from the blood stream.
Hard to say as my feelings on R are only anecdotal. My clearance has been good lately though so I haven't been using it at all. Just don't see a need.
 
Numerous mma fighters have had their positive tests for nandrolone over turned because they argued that their " natural " nandrolone levels were elevated due to intense training.. now we know nandrolone is a naturally occurring hormone but levels 10 times or more higher is not from exertion lol.. but they won their court cases
 
How does this apply to women's estrogen replacement? I was under the impression for men, it doesn't matter, but for women the bio-identical HRT replacement is safer.
I think this difference is because for a long time what they were using for women's hrt wasn't actual estrogen? It was some "close" molecule.
 

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