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Critique cycle for older man

Maniacal

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This is for a 55 yr ~220lb 20%bf male who has been training for the last 40 years or so. This is effectively his first cycle (he did some inconsistently for short periods a long time ago). After a good amount of reading, I've assembled this plan.

BULK
week 1 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 2 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 3 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 4 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 5 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 6 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 7 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 8 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 9 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 10 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 11 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 12 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,

PCT
week 13 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 14 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 15 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 16 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 17 20mg/d tamoxifen,
week 18 20mg/d tamoxifen,

If he gets puffy/tender nipples, acne, excess water, he will increase exemestane. If he gets joint or erectile problems, he will halve exemestane.

My questions are:

Should the HCG be discontinued at the same time as test-e, should the HCG dose be increased on weeks 11 and 12, or should the HCG be continued and increased into weeks 13, 14, 15?
Should tamoxifen, or a half dose of both tamoxifen and clomid be used?
Should the entire cycle be made much shorter?

I appreciate any input at all.
 

turbobusa

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At 55 if no plans of competing I would probably skip the aa17 and jut run the
the enan 2-3 weeks longer. T
 

IPGear

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Please do not interpret this as critiquing or critisizing. It is not. Just wanting to get insight into helping older guys?

Questions?

Why the Dbol in an old guy? Is he not going to get there on the test alone?
Why 12 weeks and not 8? Why not hit him harder with the test for 8 weeks?
Whats the goal? Can a 55 year old gain mass?
Should he just go on HRT and benefit without jacking him around physiologically?


IPGEAR
 

aussiebulldog

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if he was not on hrt before , he might need to be after.
 

Gravel

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My advice for him would be to just run 200mg of test since he hasn't used anything in awhile and see how he likes it; he may feel great on it and not be interested in adding more. Maybe research some peptides for some additional benefits and add some Synthetek products down the road. Just a thought.
 

Maniacal

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Please do not interpret this as critiquing or critisizing. It is not. Just wanting to get insight into helping older guys?

Questions?

Why the Dbol in an old guy? Is he not going to get there on the test alone?
Why 12 weeks and not 8? Why not hit him harder with the test for 8 weeks?
Whats the goal? Can a 55 year old gain mass?
Should he just go on HRT and benefit without jacking him around physiologically?


IPGEAR
My knowledge in this matter is all theory so I was just following the consensus of the typical novice/beginner cycles with the dbol. Supposedly to jump start the anabolic properties while waiting for the test to kick in. The 12 weeks and not 8 was again because of the typical plans I found. His goal is to get stronger, gain some muscle, but hopefully not too much weight. I initially recommended HRT to him, but he doesn't like the idea of being in the system.
 

Maniacal

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At 55 if no plans of competing I would probably skip the aa17 and jut run the
the enan 2-3 weeks longer. T
Ok.

aussiebulldog said:
if he was not on hrt before , he might need to be after.
That is exactly what I do not want. Are you saying this because the test is too high and the inclusion of the dbol?

gravel said:
My advice for him would be to just run 200mg of test since he hasn't used anything in awhile and see how he likes it; he may feel great on it and not be interested in adding more. Maybe research some peptides for some additional benefits and add some Synthetek products down the road. Just a thought.
It seems you guys advocate a more conservative route, and I will take that advice. I will drop the dbol and reduce the test to 200-250mg.

Should I still keep the aromasin, tamoxifen, and hcg at the same dosages?
 

robertfhub

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I can only speak from my experience. At 45 I still use orals and find that they still have benefits. However back in the day I would use 4 amps of duratestin and 50 mg of russian dbol. Now I wouldn't go over 25 mg of dbol and 500 sust. It really depends on your body and goals.
slow and steady wins the race.....;)
 

Mini Truck

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As I see it, the first thing to address is his 20% BF. That for some may be considered good. But from just an appearance perspective, not a competing perspective, he would just look a lot better at 13-15%.

Yes, gear will somewhat lower that number, but add gear and don't change his nutrition in a sigfificant way, he will just look bigger while on, but fatter and smoother when off.

Whether he's considering a show or just wanting to kick start some muscle growth, I would not recommend the cycle described. There are better compounds to use. Once he's down to 15% naturally, PM me and I'll advice.
(I'll be 53 in March and plan on hitting the Master's Nats in July in my all-time best condition and I've been in the trenches for 30+ years).

Peace,

Mack
 

triathloncoach

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Your current stats at 55 sound great. With that said being said I didn't see you state your goals. Why a cycle now? More muscle, lower body fat? More muscle and remain around 220?

As usual Mack hit the bullseye on the diet componant.

I'm 48. Other than you not stating your goals (and based on your thorough listing of your cycle I will without hesitation assume you have specific goals but neglected to state them), what's with the Dbol? I have never tried it. My "naive?" impression is it makes you grow into a very strong marshmellow and is fairly toxic. But I dunno.

I would also go with atleast 400 test. If you are making the leap, make the leap. Get a nice bump. I wouldn't consider a much higher dose, but 200......eh? You won't see any fireworks.

I also want to thank you for mentioning extremesten and your concerns. A few weeks ago I bumped up my extremesten and I have noticed my joints are stiff, my wee weenie, not so stiff. Your thread helped me out. Thanks old man.
 
Last edited:

Mini Truck

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Tri,

Thank you for the kind compliment, I appreciate it!

At different stages over the last 30 years of competiting, I may have
titter-tooted on this a little, notice the word "little".

But as I get older, I'll be 53 next month, will be competing in July in the Master's Nats, and will bring in my best package ever. Yes, even compared to my 30's when I won my class in every show I entered for 15 years.
At the end of the day, it all boils down to this:

1) The genetic blueprint the Lord gaves us. We have ZERO % control of it.
2) Nutrition. We have 100% CONTROL OF IT.
3) Gear - with wisdom, knowledge, safety, caution-light always flashing.
Keep it in it's place on the food chain.

I AM 100% POSITIVE OF THIS!!!!!!!!

THINKING ANY DIFFERENT IS ONLY FOOLING YOURSELF!!!!!

ESPECIALLY AS WE GET OLDER ( I meant to say BETTER)!!!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT INJECT "MUSCLE"!!!!!!

TRAIN AS HARD AS YOU CAN - EVERY SET - EVERY REP - EVERY DAY
NEVER GIVE UP - AND EAT PERFECT EVERY MEAL - EVERY DAY -FOR YEARS AND YEARS. AND THEN, :headbang: KEEP DOIN' IT.

Peace,

Mack
 

heels1

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This is for a 55 yr ~220lb 20%bf male who has been training for the last 40 years or so. This is effectively his first cycle (he did some inconsistently for short periods a long time ago). After a good amount of reading, I've assembled this plan.

BULK
week 1 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 2 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 3 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 4 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E, 20mg/d dianabol, Liver support
week 5 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 6 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 7 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 8 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 9 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 10 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 11 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,
week 12 400mg/w test enanthate, 10mg/d exemestane, 250IU 2/w HCG, 1000IU/d Vitamin E,

PCT
week 13 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 14 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 15 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 16 20mg/d tamoxifen, 20mg/d exemestane,
week 17 20mg/d tamoxifen,
week 18 20mg/d tamoxifen,

If he gets puffy/tender nipples, acne, excess water, he will increase exemestane. If he gets joint or erectile problems, he will halve exemestane.

My questions are:

Should the HCG be discontinued at the same time as test-e, should the HCG dose be increased on weeks 11 and 12, or should the HCG be continued and increased into weeks 13, 14, 15?
Should tamoxifen, or a half dose of both tamoxifen and clomid be used?
Should the entire cycle be made much shorter?

I appreciate any input at all.
I use arimidex while on cycle and then exemestane during PCT.
 

Armyguy

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At 55 , I beleive Dr's who put men 55 or older on TRT would like their total Test levels to be somewhere between 800-1000. This can be acheived with 200-250mg of Test E or C /week probably closer to 200mg. At 20% BF, I would want to be a little cautious at first, to see if he gets any sides. Just a thought and that is just my opinion.
 

Maniacal

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As I see it, the first thing to address is his 20% BF. That for some may be considered good. But from just an appearance perspective, not a competing perspective, he would just look a lot better at 13-15%.

Yes, gear will somewhat lower that number, but add gear and don't change his nutrition in a sigfificant way, he will just look bigger while on, but fatter and smoother when off.

Whether he's considering a show or just wanting to kick start some muscle growth, I would not recommend the cycle described. There are better compounds to use. Once he's down to 15% naturally, PM me and I'll advice.
(I'll be 53 in March and plan on hitting the Master's Nats in July in my all-time best condition and I've been in the trenches for 30+ years).

Peace,

Mack
I agree, losing fat is a concern. I have been working on him to improve his diet for a long time, but I'm having difficulties.

He basically eats oatmeal/cereal in the morning with protein powder, another protein shake after his workout, then at lunch it's a lean cuisine style frozen dinner, similar for dinner with occasionally a salad. He'll also snack on granola bars and pb & crackers.

I've advocated a primal style diet with lots of meat, good fats, cruciferous veggies and some fruits to him for years now. He seems to equate being lean with vanity instead of health so getting him to change his diet would require changing his viewpoint as well. He'll never want to compete in a bodybuilding competition but convincing him to lower his body fat for health reasons could be possible if I had the right approach (which I can't seem to figure out.)

If I can convince him to lose some fat first, I'll definitely send you a pm.

triathloncoach said:
Your current stats at 55 sound great. With that said being said I didn't see you state your goals. Why a cycle now? More muscle, lower body fat? More muscle and remain around 220?

As usual Mack hit the bullseye on the diet componant.

I'm 48. Other than you not stating your goals (and based on your thorough listing of your cycle I will without hesitation assume you have specific goals but neglected to state them), what's with the Dbol? I have never tried it. My "naive?" impression is it makes you grow into a very strong marshmellow and is fairly toxic. But I dunno.

I would also go with atleast 400 test. If you are making the leap, make the leap. Get a nice bump. I wouldn't consider a much higher dose, but 200......eh? You won't see any fireworks.

I also want to thank you for mentioning extremesten and your concerns. A few weeks ago I bumped up my extremesten and I have noticed my joints are stiff, my wee weenie, not so stiff. Your thread helped me out. Thanks old man.
Yes he's definitely in better shape than most his age. His goal is just to be stronger. That's really it, just strength. Of course, since I'm the one designing his plan, I'm going to try to keep him as healthy as possible - which is why I'm on the fence about the test dosage.

Some of the other responses in the thread about having to go on hrt permanently after this cycle made me a bit more cautious, so I'm considering a lower dose. If I remember correctly, 200mg/w is ~3 times average physiological levels, and I'd think he could get some good gains.

My main concern is for him to be able to return to non supplemented training with a nice bonus in strength and few negative effects. I incorporated the HCG to keep the LH flowing and his testes working, the aromasin to prevent the nasty sides from too much estrogen, and the tamoxifen to help ensure his levels return to physiological after the cycle.
 

Maniacal

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I use arimidex while on cycle and then exemestane during PCT.
May I ask your reasoning?

Armyguy said:
At 55 , I beleive Dr's who put men 55 or older on TRT would like their total Test levels to be somewhere between 800-1000. This can be acheived with 200-250mg of Test E or C /week probably closer to 200mg. At 20% BF, I would want to be a little cautious at first, to see if he gets any sides. Just a thought and that is just my opinion.
Cautious in what way? As in increasing/decreasing the aromatase inhibitor or adding tamoxifen, or lowering the test dose?
 

IPGear

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Maniacal,

This is a great thread for older guys to ponder. We think guys who start cycling in there early or mid 40s may actually spare musle loss and beable to take that that well into their 50s as at least one member on this thread is an example. Men who have not cycled and end up in their mid 50s, may find that testosterone that puts them in the 800 - 1000 range may give them strength, stamina, and fat loss and achieve everything they are wanting beyond gaining muscle mass. Still wondering if thats possible in a guy 55 and do not honestly know the answer. They probably have a significantly lower test level naturally then men 10 years younger. Something as much as 40% lower as we remember. The risk is that if you bang him very hard you will create havic on his system with residual effects and it may take a year or longer for a doctor to try to correct it through HRT. We do that in younger guys and the risk has to be even greater in a guy whos 55. He will not recover like a younger guy. Even the use of armidex may be unecessary if you are dealing with a guy who trully has a significant testosterone deficit to begin with. But its all speculation and we certainly do not have the knowledge to be advising anyone.

This would be a great cycle to get an opinion from the gear squads doctor below.


IPGEAR
 

Armyguy

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Maniacal,

This is a great thread for older guys to ponder. We think guys who start cycling in there early or mid 40s may actually spare musle loss and beable to take that that well into their 50s as at least one member on this thread is an example. Men who have not cycled and end up in their mid 50s, may find that testosterone that puts them in the 800 - 1000 range may give them strength, stamina, and fat loss and achieve everything they are wanting beyond gaining muscle mass. Still wondering if thats possible in a guy 55 and do not honestly know the answer. They probably have a significantly lower test level naturally then men 10 years younger. Something as much as 40% lower as we remember. The risk is that if you bang him very hard you will create havic on his system with residual effects and it may take a year or longer for a doctor to try to correct it through HRT. We do that in younger guys and the risk has to be even greater in a guy whos 55. He will not recover like a younger guy. Even the use of armidex may be unecessary if you are dealing with a guy who trully has a significant testosterone deficit to begin with. But its all speculation and we certainly do not have the knowledge to be advising anyone.

This would be a great cycle to get an opinion from the gear squads doctor below.


IPGEAR
:yeahthat:
You would be surprised to see the gains one can get with a TRT dose....
 

CoachBill

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Have a good friend who is 52 and started AAS last year, did his first cycle 200 mg week Test C, felt amazing and stronger than ever and saw immediate results. 2nd cycle he added in low dose tren 100mg twice a week and test 400mg weekly for a short 8 weeks. After this he went back onto TRT level. His results are fantastic, not only looks great but says he feels like a 30 yo. Not everyone is the same but his diet is on point and he is a workhorse at the gym.
 

mung

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:yeahthat:
You would be surprised to see the gains one can get with a TRT dose....
I will soon be 48 and have been lifting for 18 years, competed for multiple years off and on. My picture is in the photo section. And I have to say, if he is only looking for strength I agree completely with the above statement. I've used far above HRT doses and I am currently running HRT dose from Dr. and I feel like a million bucks.

Additionally, have him get his prolactin levels checked. In my annual physical it was discovered mine were elevated and I am also on .25mg of cabergoline per week, down from .5mg, and this alone changed my overall sense of well being...more mental than physical. This may also help his motivation to clean up the diet and not eat like a female...based on your above description! :eek:

I have had great results with a small amount of anavar thrown in for 4 week stints, but dbol seems like an inferior choice, unless thats whats available. I still wouldn't recommend it.

It simply appears there are areas he could better focus his energy and get results berfore trying the above route. At 55 I would think a lower level would go quite far.

Keep us posted! Us old guys here would enjoy reading what transpires!
 

Tom

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150-200 mg test per week and 4 IU hgh per day......
 

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