Cutler: "In my 20 years of training, I've never trained to failure on any set. Ever."

[brutus69]

That’s what I do. Typically 5-9 followed by 12-15.


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kinda a style of reverse pyramid. thats THE most eficient way to train. if done right, meaning proper warmup, percent of reduction between sets, if u want 6,7,8 or 6,8,10, 5,10,15....

i made better progress doing rpt than any other style, meaning almost steroid kinda strength gains week to week. on trt dose

now im back on a little cycle, 300 test/week, and im gonna do higher reps out of necessity cuz planet fitness and all.
my avatar pic was on 70 tren a day and 4-6-8 reverse pyramid. now im older and gotta be more careful but still can do 6 or 8 for a first set.

 

[LK3]

One of the most important things you can learn in resistance training: failure is always mental, in another place, at another time, in another state of mind, you can always push harder.



1. doing the same weight on multiple sets always seems pointless to me.

2. did you REALLY fail at 30? You mean there was NO WAY you could do 1 more rep? because I know if I picked a weight I could do for 30, and I failed, I could easily find a way to do another rep.

3. do you know about the 20 rep, 1 set squat workout that was popularized in the 90s? Pick a weight you think you can squat for 10 reps, your "10rm" then squat it for 20 reps. You do one set and you are done. This is one of the hardest things I have ever done, WAY harder than sets I've done that are over twice as heavy.

while ppl are talking about doing multi sets with the same wieght in like 5x5 the first sets arent really failure the last should be but, never liked this sort of style as i feel much easier to go all out with effort one time.

that said, something i took away from talking with ph about all this was picking a weight and hitting 3 rep ranges with it, works out to be like 20,15,10 sort of volume and non ouchy weights.

i have found it to work well for getting back to things im not so sure about new growth...

each set is to failure. that 20 reps is basically widow maker style of grinding it out. each following too and super short rest.

for sure the times when i grew the most it was the times i did the least amount of volume.

 

[suppdude]

You feel this is more effective than same weight on both sets and failing at lets say 12 reps on your first set and 9 reps on the second set?

Yes and a lot of bigger guys and trainers advocate this (Dusty, JP, Jansen, etc). As for warm ups, I pyramid up in weight and reverse pyramid down in reps for my first movement of the day, which is always a compound movement.

I’ve made the most progress in terms of size and strength doing it this way.


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[Biggerp73]

Fastest progress I ever made on bench strength + chest size was last summer doing high volume, low reps, long rest periods. I would do 8-10 sets of singles. 3-8 minute rest between sets. Only hit the muscle once per week. Never hit failure. Went from struggling to rep 185 to putting up 365 for a relatively easy single. Now this was after taking years off from benching, and I used to be able to get 435, so a lot of this was most likely muscle memory, but to my credit I was training natural so muscle memory or not the gains were tremendous. And now back on cycle for the first time in a decade I'm gaining size and strength and consistently moving upwards in progressive overload by using a similar method. Straight sets below failure allow me to lift heavy while recovering and making consistent progress. The only time I fail to progress is when I get too close to failure. The next workout I am always weaker.

 

[maldorf]

The only time I fail to progress is when I get too close to failure. The next workout I am always weaker.

That means that you just didn't recover all of the way yet, which isn't good of course. In a case like that you would need another day perhaps to rest those muscles, or maybe you didn't get enough nutrition/sleep. Usually I think a combo of things. Reducing the # of sets you did would help for the next workout. Another thing is how many weeks or training sessions you are going really heavy and or pushing to failure a lot. You cant do that forever, have to cycle in some recovery, periodization.

 

[graybass]

That means that you just didn't recover all of the way yet, which isn't good of course. In a case like that you would need another day perhaps to rest those muscles, or maybe you didn't get enough nutrition/sleep. Usually I think a combo of things. Reducing the # of sets you did would help for the next workout. Another thing is how many weeks or training sessions you are going really heavy and or pushing to failure a lot. You cant do that forever, have to cycle in some recovery, periodization.

This ^

 

[Kaladryn]

@ Kal, so instead of doing let’s say two straight sets with the same weight. You prefer to work up to a single top/Heavy set and then do a lighter set(s) as a back off set(s)?

This is how I often do it, here is why:

1. My first goal is to warm up the joint, the goal here is to not tire out the muscle and not put wear and tear on the tendon(s). 1st and maybe 2nd set. (Often skipped on subsequent exercises for the body part.)

2. My second goal is to prepare the tendon for the for my heavy set, reps will be lower because I want to both preserve muscle strength and minimize joint/tendon stress. If necessary, I will wear the muscle out a little bit if I feel it is required for safety for that particular lift. I do 1-2 sets like this closer to my working set range.

3. My third goal is to stimulate an adaptive response in the target muscle(s). This is my all out set, this is the only set I probably do forced reps on, or a drop set, etc. I go to "failure" but I'm in a mindset relative to how hard I think I should be pushing myself at that time, so it's all relative based mainly on injury prevention.

4. If I'm not done at this point, I may want to do a second lighter set. I know I won't be stronger than my all out set and even if I was just as strong, why would it help to signal the same adaptive response again? Are you thinking you are recruiting unused motor units of fibers? Unlikely, and if you are, you would with lighter weight also. I'm only talking 10-20% lighter. This is a great way to get better at the exercise, increase mind-muscle connections, strengthen connective tissue, possibly improve blood flow to the muscle. The problem with the second set is that it can make you much weaker on subsequent exercises, so I usually skip it on the first exercise for each muscle.

If you think about it, I think this is pretty much the basic ideas behind everyone's training for the most part.

 

[NEMSZ]

All this talk about over training and taxing the body/CNS etc and I can’t help but wonder;

Forget what your workout looks like, what does some of your guys REST/RECOVERY look like?

I’m all for guys who enjoy higher volume and being in the gym for hours etc, that’s your problem lol but If you’re training back to back to back days while doing something like DC then after a while yes you might start to feel it.. But if you train HIT and then give yourself a full day recovery in between you should be more than ok, especially if you’re eating and sleeping how you’re supposed to be...

Sometimes it amazes me how bodybuilders can say “bodybuilding is the toughest sport” or categorize themselves in such a way and then complain about “overtraining” or “taxing their body” when they’re on shit tons of gear and food etc when I personally know a few MMA fighters who don’t use anywhere near the same amount of gear as a bodybuilder if they even use anything at all and they train 3-4 times a day for 2 hours per session getting ready for a fight for 8-12 weeks at a time... They eat a shit ton of food to keep up with the demand but they’re not sleeping 18 hours a day or taking 1-2 full days off in a row to prevent “overtraining” etc...

In b4 someone says “everyone is different” or “they must be genetic freaks/elite” etc..... No guys, it’s called conquering your inner bitch... lol

 

[Crazy_jay]

All this talk about over training and taxing the body/CNS etc and I can’t help but wonder;



Forget what your workout looks like, what does some of your guys REST/RECOVERY look like?



I’m all for guys who enjoy higher volume and being in the gym for hours etc, that’s your problem lol but If you’re training back to back to back days while doing something like DC then after a while yes you might start to feel it.. But if you train HIT and then give yourself a full day recovery in between you should be more than ok, especially if you’re eating and sleeping how you’re supposed to be...



Sometimes it amazes me how bodybuilders can say “bodybuilding is the toughest sport” or categorize themselves in such a way and then complain about “overtraining” or “taxing their body” when they’re on shit tons of gear and food etc when I personally know a few MMA fighters who don’t use anywhere near the same amount of gear as a bodybuilder if they even use anything at all and they train 3-4 times a day for 2 hours per session getting ready for a fight for 8-12 weeks at a time... They eat a shit ton of food to keep up with the demand but they’re not sleeping 18 hours a day or taking 1-2 full days off in a row to prevent “overtraining” etc...



In b4 someone says “everyone is different” or “they must be genetic freaks/elite” etc..... No guys, it’s called conquering your inner bitch... lol

These mma guys pull it off because cns fatigue is not real! Yep, I said it, nobody is going to find a study to prove otherwise either.

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[maldorf]

These mma guys pull it off because cns fatigue is not real! Yep, I said it, nobody is going to find a study to prove otherwise either.

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Im not sure either, but I do feel like after a really heavy session when my muscles would be twitching, that my CNS was firing off when it shouldn't be. Not quite sure what causes the twitching. The next 48 hours after a heavy session I could be sitting down and notice that my leg was going into tiny contractions, twitching. I never got that when I trained light weight/high reps.

 

[jeroendebleser]

Fastest progress I ever made on bench strength + chest size was last summer doing high volume, low reps, long rest periods. I would do 8-10 sets of singles. 3-8 minute rest between sets. Only hit the muscle once per week. Never hit failure. Went from struggling to rep 185 to putting up 365 for a relatively easy single. Now this was after taking years off from benching, and I used to be able to get 435, so a lot of this was most likely muscle memory, but to my credit I was training natural so muscle memory or not the gains were tremendous. And now back on cycle for the first time in a decade I'm gaining size and strength and consistently moving upwards in progressive overload by using a similar method. Straight sets below failure allow me to lift heavy while recovering and making consistent progress. The only time I fail to progress is when I get too close to failure. The next workout I am always weaker.

435 is strong bro. Clearly your training is working and you really don't need to defend it to anyone here. If I could do it mentally (I really can't, I've tried lol), I would also leave 1 or 2 reps in the tank knowing what I know now.

 

[FK86]

All this talk about over training and taxing the body/CNS etc and I can’t help but wonder; Forget what your workout looks like, what does some of your guys REST/RECOVERY look like?

What's being done in the training session could be the very thing that prevents rest and recovery.

Sometimes it amazes me how bodybuilders can say “bodybuilding is the toughest sport” or categorize themselves in such a way and then complain about “overtraining” or “taxing their body” when they’re on shit tons of gear and food etc when I personally know a few MMA fighters who don’t use anywhere near the same amount of gear as a bodybuilder if they even use anything at all and they train 3-4 times a day for 2 hours per session getting ready for a fight for 8-12 weeks at a time... They eat a shit ton of food to keep up with the demand but they’re not sleeping 18 hours a day or taking 1-2 full days off in a row to prevent “overtraining” etc...

In b4 someone says “everyone is different” or “they must be genetic freaks/elite” etc..... No guys, it’s called conquering your inner bitch... lol

It depends on the stress. MMA/boxing workouts are very tough, but largely aerobic. That's why they are so long and it takes a lot of endurance and lung capacity to handle that. You have to straight up be in shape for that stuff, but they can endure 2-3 hour workouts because it is not taxing them in the same way. Just like we were outlining the difference between high and low reps; 30 rep leg presses will feel like a blowtorch is on your quads, 6 rep leg presses will not but it is more demanding on your body. MMA fighters don't spar to failure. That's death.

 

[Elvia1023]

That means that you just didn't recover all of the way yet, which isn't good of course. In a case like that you would need another day perhaps to rest those muscles, or maybe you didn't get enough nutrition/sleep. Usually I think a combo of things. Reducing the # of sets you did would help for the next workout. Another thing is how many weeks or training sessions you are going really heavy and or pushing to failure a lot. You cant do that forever, have to cycle in some recovery, periodization.

100% agree. Great post. Guys just need to use common sense and listen to their bodies. Everyone has different recovery capabilities but sometimes guys can go over the top. They act like if they train hard for 40 mins they won't gain if they go the next day. If someones recovery is that crap they need to look towards their nutrition and sleep. Although if someone is growing 3-4 hard session per week is plenty. Some people also have busy lives and don't plan to step on stage so they are more than happy training 2-3 days per week. But some who want to train more frequently don't bacause they are scared of "CNS fatigue" or "Adrenal fatigue" is silly in my eyes. They should just do it and see what it brings. Too many are confined in their box of thinking that has been a result of reading the forums/mags over years. It's the same type of guys who think only training a specific way builds muscle but they don't try other ways.

If my sleep is sufficient and my nutrition is on point I can train brutally hard everyday of the week. Of course after time I will need breaks but I can still push the volume. Interestingly and just to show how nutrition can be a factor when I moved over to keto recently my recovery was awful. My muscles were sore for days and the difference was night and day so in that situation it would be pointless me training high frequency.

Guys should just do what you want to do and learn your own body. Just because x person thinks you should only train 4 times per week doesn't mean it's true for you. The same as the you can't gain muscle lifting lighter weight guys. Or you must go to failure etc etc.

 

[NEMSZ]

What's being done in the training session could be the very thing that prevents rest and recovery.



It depends on the stress. MMA/boxing workouts are very tough, but largely aerobic. That's why they are so long and it takes a lot of endurance and lung capacity to handle that. You have to straight up be in shape for that stuff, but they can endure 2-3 hour workouts because it is not taxing them in the same way. Just like we were outlining the difference between high and low reps; 30 rep leg presses will feel like a blowtorch is on your quads, 6 rep leg presses will not but it is more demanding on your body. MMA fighters don't spar to failure. That's death.

I’ll disagree with you a little bit in the sense that yes running drills and sparring involves a lot of aerobic and stamina but you’re forgetting they also lift weights a few times a week and on top of that rolling/wrestling taxes the muscles like crazy, the whole thing does, it’s not like muscles aren’t being used when doing any of these things, and you’re talking doing it 6-8 hours a day... I’m not sure if you’ve ever done any kind of fight training or to what level, but I feel 10x more tired and physically drained after running drills and wrestling etc than any single weight lifting workout I’ve ever been put through, and I’ve had the pleasure of training with some low level pros and top National guys here in SFL and it was grueling, don’t get me wrong..

The whole point of it though, is that as long as rest and food are up to par then “overtraining” isn’t to be worried about..

Oh, and to address the “what’s going on during training can effect rest” a little bit more, I agree that it can but only if doing the training for too long consistently and rest being less than adequate at the same time.

Again, I just don’t see how a guy lifting weights super intensely for 45 minutes and then eating a shit ton of food and sleeping good for 2 nights with a full day of rest in between (what training EOD would essentially be), can be “overtrained” or “overtaxed” when there’s people doing 6-8 hours of full on workouts/drills/sparring etc 6 days a week.

 

[Mike Arnold]

All this talk about over training and taxing the body/CNS etc and I can’t help but wonder;

Forget what your workout looks like, what does some of your guys REST/RECOVERY look like?

I’m all for guys who enjoy higher volume and being in the gym for hours etc, that’s your problem lol but If you’re training back to back to back days while doing something like DC then after a while yes you might start to feel it.. But if you train HIT and then give yourself a full day recovery in between you should be more than ok, especially if you’re eating and sleeping how you’re supposed to be...

Sometimes it amazes me how bodybuilders can say “bodybuilding is the toughest sport” or categorize themselves in such a way and then complain about “overtraining” or “taxing their body” when they’re on shit tons of gear and food etc when I personally know a few MMA fighters who don’t use anywhere near the same amount of gear as a bodybuilder if they even use anything at all and they train 3-4 times a day for 2 hours per session getting ready for a fight for 8-12 weeks at a time... They eat a shit ton of food to keep up with the demand but they’re not sleeping 18 hours a day or taking 1-2 full days off in a row to prevent “overtraining” etc...

In b4 someone says “everyone is different” or “they must be genetic freaks/elite” etc..... No guys, it’s called conquering your inner bitch... lol

...because attempting to maximize muscle growth and attain maximum conditioning for an MMA fight are two entirely different goals, requiring two entirely differnet approaches to training.

If a bodybuilder trained with anywhere near the frequency of an MMA fighter, he would never come anywhere close to maximizing his muscular development. Differnet approaches for different goals.

 

[thethinker48]

I’ll disagree with you a little bit in the sense that yes running drills and sparring involves a lot of aerobic and stamina but you’re forgetting they also lift weights a few times a week and on top of that rolling/wrestling taxes the muscles like crazy, the whole thing does, it’s not like muscles aren’t being used when doing any of these things, and you’re talking doing it 6-8 hours a day... I’m not sure if you’ve ever done any kind of fight training or to what level, but I feel 10x more tired and physically drained after running drills and wrestling etc than any single weight lifting workout I’ve ever been put through, and I’ve had the pleasure of training with some low level pros and top National guys here in SFL and it was grueling, don’t get me wrong..



The whole point of it though, is that as long as rest and food are up to par then “overtraining” isn’t to be worried about..



Oh, and to address the “what’s going on during training can effect rest” a little bit more, I agree that it can but only if doing the training for too long consistently and rest being less than adequate at the same time.



Again, I just don’t see how a guy lifting weights super intensely for 45 minutes and then eating a shit ton of food and sleeping good for 2 nights with a full day of rest in between (what training EOD would essentially be), can be “overtrained” or “overtaxed” when there’s people doing 6-8 hours of full on workouts/drills/sparring etc 6 days a week.

I think he’s referring specifically to nervous system fatigue.

Anyone who has set PRs or done widowmaker sets for squats can tell you; it’s your nervous system that gets shot from that.

It’s a way different feeling than fatigue from running around, doing manual labor or drills. You simply can’t fire properly; can’t even concentrate at work when you over reach.

I remember sitting in class with this sheer feeling of being “fed up” with life; that’s when I know I had to deload from my DC blast [emoji846]


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[Kaladryn]

Lack of sleep is literally CNS fatigue, but I guess that doesn't exist.

 

[NEMSZ]

If the goal is muscle size I agree, there’s a point of needing to rest and where you’ll get less results squatting every single day, 7 days a week to reach 36 inch thighs etc as opposed to having rest days in there etc..

But I’m not talking about the goal of muscle size, I’m talking about the excuse of not being able to train balls to the wall because of “overtraining” etc... If Navy Seals don’t “overtrain” then your overtraining is nonsense.. Like I said, taking a day off in between training sessions is more than enough to combat “overtraining” in a sense of effecting the goal of muscle size.. People just don’t want to lift balls to the wall, they’d rather go to the gym 5-6 days a week and lift for 20 sets per body part than go 3-4 days and go all out... If you can do 20 sets of a bodypart and think you’re training balls out then you either have the absolute greatest muscle endurance on the planet or you’re not going balls out... Odds are it’s the latter..

I’ll just ask like someone above posted/asked; is there any studies about the CNS and recovery?

 

[psychor]

A week or so ago I was thinking to myself, I wish we would have another debate on training again!Lol

I love to read and learn as much as I can and hear different opinions and experiences when it comes to training protocols and strategies. I try to keep an open mind so I can learn as much as possible and implement the ideas into my training.

Isn't it at the very least humorous that given the fact that with all the resources, experiences, and testimonies of thousands of lifters/bodybuilders over many decades of gathering information, that we as a collective bodybuilding community can't seem to agree or come to a decisive conclusion on the "best" and most efficient way to train. Although there is strong evidence and opinions and some feel they truly have found the best way to train, and however they may be correct in their opinion(s), it is interesting that we haven't yet come to a mass agreement or conclusion so it seems.

My .02 cents...I have made my best hypertrophy gains while using progressive overload trying to add weight within 2 different rep ranges(JP style) and/or trying to get more reps each consecutive workout with a weight that I could get 4/5 reps but try to up the reps each workout till I get to a controlled 8/9 reps with that same weight.:lightbulb:--"ROCKET SCIENCE-I know!!!

I've been training this way for about 6 months now and I am the most muscular and dense that I've ever been and everyone has been telling me that am bigger also.

I feel that this, for me-for NOW AT LEAST-is the best way to train for hypertrophy but I will still read, listen and learn from others experiences and try to implement strategies/ideas in order to maximize my efforts and maximize hypertrophy also.

Thanks to all who contribute and share their thoughts and experiences!!!!!:headbang:

 

[FK86]

I just don’t see how a guy lifting weights super intensely for 45 minutes and then eating a shit ton of food and sleeping good for 2 nights with a full day of rest in between (what training EOD would essentially be), can be “overtrained” or “overtaxed” when there’s people doing 6-8 hours of full on workouts/drills/sparring etc 6 days a week.

I said, taking a day off in between training sessions is more than enough to combat “overtraining” in a sense of effecting the goal of muscle size

We're actually on the same page here. You're recognizing these workouts need a day off between sessions. In most cases very hard training where the whole session is full tilt requires that full day off in between and people are not taking this. I am guilty and stubborn of that.

I think he’s referring specifically to nervous system fatigue.

Anyone who has set PRs or done widowmaker sets for squats can tell you; it’s your nervous system that gets shot from that.

It’s a way different feeling than fatigue from running around, doing manual labor or drills. You simply can’t fire properly; can’t even concentrate at work when you over reach.

I remember sitting in class with this sheer feeling of being “fed up” with life; that’s when I know I had to deload from my DC blast [emoji846]

100%. We can all walk on a treadmill for 3 hours and be exhausted and probably sleep like a rock that night, but if you train to failure day after day with inadequate rest your nervous system will reward you with insomnia and now your very training is a roadblock in your recovery. You can't sleep.

Lack of sleep is literally CNS fatigue, but I guess that doesn't exist.

And I've experienced it first hand. I looked into every other factor that was causing insomnia; caffeine, supplements, everyday life stress etc and the training is the culprit. I was training 4 days a week for years with Wednesdays and weekends off and my enthusiasm wants to continue to do so, but it's become evident to me that 3 non-consecutive days a week is what I need if I'm going to lift at the intensity I want to. That's why I'm doing the DC two-way and with higher reps as it's even better for my recovery.