Training to failure

[bigzzz]

It seems like the hype that everything needs to be trained to failure seems to subside.

A lot more people walk away from it because it seems to be very taxing for the CNS and you are pretty much spent after the first excercise.

I sometimes apply it now for assistance movements towards the end of the training, and for the most part stay 1-3 reps away from failure. Growing and recovery seems to be a lot better this way.

Thoughts on this and do you also see the switch in your area?

 

[Oldwhitedude]

I train to failure whereever it's safe to do so, and extend the set almost always through partials, dropsets, rest pause and just anything I can do to get the most out of every working set.

Just what I feel gives me the best results.

As long as you're progressing, I don't think there's any right or wrong though.

 

[luki7788]

It seems like the hype that everything needs to be trained to failure seems to subside.

A lot more people walk away from it because it seems to be very taxing for the CNS and you are pretty much spent after the first excercise.

I sometimes apply it now for assistance movements towards the end of the training, and for the most part stay 1-3 reps away from failure. Growing and recovery seems to be a lot better this way.

Thoughts on this and do you also see the switch in your area?

hypertrophy training is not about getting stronger from training to training, it's about stimulating the muscles to grow, and that's the best thing about muscle failure - I've said it many times that now I train with half the weight I used to use and I have bigger muscles than ever

Example - I did e.g. bench press 180 kg for 12 reps on a free bar, but I did a big arch, I used a lot of leg drive, I did a quick negative, etc. I just did everything to lift more, but not necessarily to stimulate the muscles more strongly.
Now I do, for example, bench press but on Smith 80-120 kg for reps, I do a slow negative, I don't use leg drive at all and I don't just try to lift the weight but tense the muscles - and my muscles are simply fried after each training and the nervous system is not fried because I only strain the muscles and not the entire nervous system even though 80% of the sets are performed to failure or very close

Of course, I do not recommend this type of training to people who still have a lot of muscles to build - here I would simply focus on getting stronger in the hypertrophic repetition range of 5-20

 

[luki7788]

By the way - probably the best example of this is Roman Fritz - when he was younger he could do incline smith with 4 plates per side for reps and now he does 1 max 2 plates and he is the biggest in his entire career

 

[bigzzz]

hypertrophy training is not about getting stronger from training to training, it's about stimulating the muscles to grow, and that's the best thing about muscle failure - I've said it many times that now I train with half the weight I used to use and I have bigger muscles than ever

Example - I did e.g. bench press 180 kg for 12 reps on a free bar, but I did a big arch, I used a lot of leg drive, I did a quick negative, etc. I just did everything to lift more, but not necessarily to stimulate the muscles more strongly.
Now I do, for example, bench press but on Smith 80-120 kg for reps, I do a slow negative, I don't use leg drive at all and I don't just try to lift the weight but tense the muscles - and my muscles are simply fried after each training and the nervous system is not fried because I only strain the muscles and not the entire nervous system even though 80% of the sets are performed to failure or very close

Of course, I do not recommend this type of training to people who still have a lot of muscles to build - here I would simply focus on getting stronger in the hypertrophic repetition range of 5-20

With that 80-120kg your reps are high then 5-20?

 

[Reno911]

More paralysis by analysis.

There's 86 ways to skin a cat when it comes to training, diet, cardio, drugs, etc. Quit making everything so complicated.

 

[luki7788]

With that 80-120kg your reps are high then 5-20?

yes, but these are very controlled repetitions - as I wrote, I don't think about lifting the weight at all, just about maximum muscle tension.

Kai Greene once said a nice sentence - bodybuilding training is not usually about lifting weights, but about tensing muscles with additional load - you won't learn this after a year, two or even 5 years of training. I understood and learned it only after 20 years of training

 

[slesh]

It seems like the hype that everything needs to be trained to failure seems to subside.

A lot more people walk away from it because it seems to be very taxing for the CNS and you are pretty much spent after the first excercise.

I sometimes apply it now for assistance movements towards the end of the training, and for the most part stay 1-3 reps away from failure. Growing and recovery seems to be a lot better this way.

Thoughts on this and do you also see the switch in your area?

Huh? Always train to failure on your top set. If you’re not truly fatiguing the muscle you won’t grow beyond those initial virgin gains.

 

[bigzzz]

Huh? Always train to failure on your top set. If you’re not truly fatiguing the muscle you won’t grow beyond those initial virgin gains.

Tell that to Jay Cutler who never trained to failure, not a single set. Of course he would grow from jerking off but he still preaches it to this day.

yes, but these are very controlled repetitions - as I wrote, I don't think about lifting the weight at all, just about maximum muscle tension.

Kai Greene once said a nice sentence - bodybuilding training is not usually about lifting weights, but about tensing muscles with additional load - you won't learn this after a year, two or even 5 years of training. I understood and learned it only after 20 years of training

I see, guess that feels wonderfull on your joints and works for you but that will keep all the joy to train away for me.

 

[luki7788]

Tell that to Jay Cutler who never trained to failure, not a single set. Of course he would grow from jerking off but he still preaches it to this day.


I see, guess that feels wonderfull on your joints and works for you but that will keep all the joy to train away for me.

firstly, that everyone should train as intensely as Jay - 90% of people don't even come close to that level of intensity - secondly, it's hard to train to failure when you train ballistically like Jay

The third thing - it depends on what fun in training means to you - apparently you are still so damaged by years of training and you don't lift such heavy weights that you are simply afraid to train very hard (in terms of load) because the weights you use may cause serious injury

 

[IFBBProDomCardone]

Huh? Always train to failure on your top set. If you’re not truly fatiguing the muscle you won’t grow beyond those initial virgin gains.

THIS...Every single one of my mentors said the exact same thing. There was non of this over complication or being scared of "over training". You must break the muscle down.

To look unnatural,we must do unnatural things (gear aside lol). I truly feel this is why we don't really see many true mass monsters or freaks. Most are afraid of actually training hard and putting some scientific reasoning behind it. When I was younger, pretty much every single final set was taken to failure. Oscar Ardon would make sure of this too. All those "freak" bodybuilders, were absolutely crushing those sets.

If you take gear, eat, have days off and sleep, you will recover. Its very simple.

 

[Deleted member 226465]

hypertrophy training is not about getting stronger from training to training, it's about stimulating the muscles to grow, and that's the best thing about muscle failure - I've said it many times that now I train with half the weight I used to use and I have bigger muscles than ever

Example - I did e.g. bench press 180 kg for 12 reps on a free bar, but I did a big arch, I used a lot of leg drive, I did a quick negative, etc. I just did everything to lift more, but not necessarily to stimulate the muscles more strongly.
Now I do, for example, bench press but on Smith 80-120 kg for reps, I do a slow negative, I don't use leg drive at all and I don't just try to lift the weight but tense the muscles - and my muscles are simply fried after each training and the nervous system is not fried because I only strain the muscles and not the entire nervous system even though 80% of the sets are performed to failure or very close

Of course, I do not recommend this type of training to people who still have a lot of muscles to build - here I would simply focus on getting stronger in the hypertrophic repetition range of 5-20

Interesting and something I’ve been considering focusing even more on.

I’m not as advanced as you but I always find eventually with the progressive resistance (from added weight) mentality eventually form reduces and you start recruiting other muscles to keep up with adding weight to the bar over time

I realise the pro’s have already built their size and are more maintaining which sadly I’m a very long way off but minus some exceptions most train with a lot less weight than I’m sure they could do for a max set but seem to train much more for the feel of the muscle than progressing weights lifted

 

[SouthernMuscle]

firstly, that everyone should train as intensely as Jay - 90% of people don't even come close to that level of intensity - secondly, it's hard to train to failure when you train ballistically like Jay

Be prepared for the questions you just brought upon yourself lol

 

[Cerberus777]

yes, but these are very controlled repetitions - as I wrote, I don't think about lifting the weight at all, just about maximum muscle tension.

Kai Greene once said a nice sentence - bodybuilding training is not usually about lifting weights, but about tensing muscles with additional load - you won't learn this after a year, two or even 5 years of training. I understood and learned it only after 20 years of training

Time and a lot of muscle with good mind muscle connection is required to do what you're talking about. When I was at my biggest I could move a decent amount of weight with just contracting the working muscle.

 

[slesh]

THIS...Every single one of my mentors said the exact same thing. There was non of this over complication or being scared of "over training". You must break the muscle down.

To look unnatural,we must do unnatural things (gear aside lol). I truly feel this is why we don't really see many true mass monsters or freaks. Most are afraid of actually training hard and putting some scientific reasoning behind it. When I was younger, pretty much every single final set was taken to failure. Oscar Ardon would make sure of this too. All those "freak" bodybuilders, were absolutely crushing those sets.

If you take gear, eat, have days off and sleep, you will recover. Its very simple.

Listen to the master ^

PS - I’m doing this because he’s too humble - Dom is accepting new clients if anyone here is looking for a prep or lifestyle coach. Like I said previously go follow him on IG to see his work.

 

[Reno911]

Tell that to Jay Cutler who never trained to failure, not a single set. Of course he would grow from jerking off but he still preaches it to this day.


I see, guess that feels wonderfull on your joints and works for you but that will keep all the joy to train away for me.

As usual you ask for advice and then argue about the advice given. Why even bother posting your twice weekly questions if you already have all the answers?

 

[alfresco]

I believe the effectiveness of training to failure can only be truly measured
if you control all the variables: food, sleep, supplements, AAS, GH, insulin,
etc., . . . don't change them.

For instance, to say that you are bigger now and you using less weight
and not training to failure is ignoring, not mentioning the above valuables.

If you are bigger now and using less weight could be and usually is
related to the amount of 'drugs' you are taking, the amount of food you
eating, sleeping better, etc. then the training to failure or not.

In the past you may have been using more weight, were big and muscular
and now you are bigger and more muscular now using less weight weight,
I'll bet you are more taking drugs and eating more / better, doing a better
job of controlling all the variables.

Isn't that what we are constantly preaching here, controlling all the variables?

I don't think is overly complicated. More people put far more thought into their cycles.

And I like Dom's post.

 

[bigzzz]

THIS...Every single one of my mentors said the exact same thing. There was non of this over complication or being scared of "over training". You must break the muscle down.

To look unnatural,we must do unnatural things (gear aside lol). I truly feel this is why we don't really see many true mass monsters or freaks. Most are afraid of actually training hard and putting some scientific reasoning behind it. When I was younger, pretty much every single final set was taken to failure. Oscar Ardon would make sure of this too. All those "freak" bodybuilders, were absolutely crushing those sets.

If you take gear, eat, have days off and sleep, you will recover. Its very simple.

Great post!

And something you said, every single final set was taken to failure. I can for sure see the reasoning behind that! But now everyone is on the hypetrain of training every single set to failure instead of doing more volume.

 

[luki7788]

I believe the effectiveness of training to failure can only be truly measured
if you control all the variables: food, sleep, supplements, AAS, GH, insulin,
etc., . . . don't change them.

For instance, to say that you are bigger now and you using less weight
and not training to failure is ignoring, not mentioning the above valuables.

If you are bigger now and using less weight could be and usually is
related to the amount of 'drugs' you are taking, the amount of food you
eating, sleeping better, etc. then the training to failure or not.

In the past you may have been using more weight, were big and muscular
and now you are bigger and more muscular now using less weight weight,
I'll bet you are more taking drugs and eating more / better, doing a better
job of controlling all the variables.

Isn't that what we are constantly preaching here, controlling all the variables?

I don't think is overly complicated. More people put far more thought into their cycles.

And I like Dom's post.

I absolutely disagree - because when I was stronger, I also took more steroids, and certainly stronger ones, such as Tren, Anadrol or Superdrol - although this could also be the reason for the difference, because these compounds give a lot of strength through neurology

but still, the way in which I lift is currently the most important here

 

[TheOtherOne55]

not another one of these threads ugh

Ill echo what Luki said. I used to incline bench 4 plates with ease. NOW, i can use 3 plates and feeeel it more and WITHIN the set focus on squeezing and really contracting as hard as possible...recruiting more muscle fibers to fire and isolating them to that specific muscle. Well which one was failure? the 4plates or the 3plates? I'm much larger now than i was back then.