Training for intent vs training for fun with Kuba

[st114]

Why don't you like single handed pulldowns and cable side raises with a wrist cuff?

Because they’re easier. No one can convince me they can push harder on a single arm pull-down than a Barbell row. It’s fine to throw these in at the end, but it’s when you see guys base their entire routines out of cables and machines. I get much more out of free weights.
And free weights don’t = ego lifting either. I’m talking properly executed, not swinging and using momentum.

I think physique quality overall has declined now that free weights are no longer king

But at the end of the day this is just how I personally prefer to train

 

[bbxtreme]

‘Art’ and ‘science’ ffs!!!
I’d rather look at decades of anecdotal training evidence as to what built the biggest and best physiques. It’s got nothing to do with ego or not accepting change but rather following principals that have stood the test of time.

If you feel cable laterals and low test cycles are best for you then crack on but if be surprised to see an successful ‘Open’ competitor following that protocol!

Do you compete in a bodybuilding show where they give out a reward for the amount of weight you lift in the gym or the movements you picked to get there?

You literally just proved my point of “ego”. I use high test and plenty of free weights in the gym. Sure, that’s the core of bodybuilding. But I’m also the first to use a cable or different movement if it betters my physique.

The people who I’ve learned this from are the same bodybuilders who did the stupid stuff in their younger days and got injured from it (top pros from previous eras). Only choosing to listen to one part of what a generation has to say to confirm your bias is not a wise move. But hey I do this for the long haul. If guys want to learn the hard way and beat their body to hell… by all means.

 

[Blueballs]

Do you compete in a bodybuilding show where they give out a reward for the amount of weight you lift in the gym or the movements you picked to get there?

You literally just proved my point of “ego”. I use high test and plenty of free weights in the gym. Sure, that’s the core of bodybuilding. But I’m also the first to use a cable or different movement if it betters my physique.

The people who I’ve learned this from are the same bodybuilders who did the stupid stuff in their younger days and got injured from it (top pros from previous eras). Only choosing to listen to one part of what a generation has to say to confirm your bias is not a wise move. But hey I do this for the long haul. If guys want to learn the hard way and beat their body to hell… by all means.

Proved your point re ‘ego’?? Wtf are you on my about?
I’ve no idea how YOU train or what cycles you run. I was commenting on what you posted!
You made reference about ‘looking cool’ etc when lifting . This is what I was commenting on.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

‘Art’ and ‘science’ ffs!!!
I’d rather look at decades of anecdotal training evidence as to what built the biggest and best physiques. It’s got nothing to do with ego or not accepting change but rather following principals that have stood the test of time.

If you feel cable laterals and low test cycles are best for you then crack on but if be surprised to see an successful ‘Open’ competitor following that protocol!

This is also what the people you disagree with have done, and they've come to different conclusions.

The "reasons" or arguments to support what you're saying have flaws. People have valid, specific reasons (which aren't logical fallacies) as to why they chose to eliminate them. This is why it's important to understand the "why" behind each decision. There really isn't a ton of anecdotal evidence because the exercises mentioned are individual, always performed with a long list of other exercises, and most IFBB pros mentioned have elite genetics. When considering "what works", it doesn't make sense to consider the top 5-10% and the bottom 5-10% in a pool of people. Pros are mostly the top 5-10%. Very few people on this board can relate to them.

The best decisions consider the nuances. Correlation does not equal causation. If you understand the causation, you will make sense of the correlation.

Cable laterals are one exercise, and low test cycles aren't as popular as you're claiming them to be. The reality is that most people are performing cuffed cable raises with other movements that all contribute to development. The long term planning, overall strategy, and adherence to the plan are what contribute most to growth. Using a cuff on your wrist for shoulder raises to determine the quality of an open competitor is intellectually dishonest.

Most competitors don't use "low test". The term itself is subjective. People are more likely to "use enough test to get the benefits", which simply means that they're deciding to use between 400-1000mg and back filling the rest of their total mg's with drugs that don't contribute to intolerable and unnecessary side effects. Are there specific pro's you know of who are using less? Can you tell us who?

Here is a list of the logical fallacies. We all naturally will use them, but when confronted with a more precise argument, our stances tend to weaken.

• Ad Hominem: Attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself.
• Appeal to Authority: Using an authority figure to support a claim, even if they are not an expert in the relevant field.
• Appeal to Ignorance: Arguing that a claim is true because it hasn't been proven false, or that it's false because it hasn't been proven true.
• Appeal to Emotion: Using emotional language to manipulate an audience, rather than relying on logical arguments.
• Bandwagon Fallacy: Claiming that something is true or good because many people believe it.
• False Dilemma: Presenting only two options when more are available.
• Hasty Generalization: Drawing a conclusion based on insufficient evidence.
• Slippery Slope: Claiming that one event will inevitably lead to a series of negative consequences.
• Straw Man: Misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
• Correlation/Causation: Assuming that because two things are correlated, one causes the other.
• Red Herring: Introducing an irrelevant topic to distract from the main issue.
• Begging the Question: Assuming the conclusion in the premises.
• Circular Reasoning: Repeating the same idea in different words, rather than providing evidence.
• Equivocation: Using a word or phrase with different meanings in the same context.
• False Analogy: Comparing two things that are not similar enough.
• Non Sequitur: A conclusion that does not logically follow from the premises.
• Sunk Cost Fallacy: Continuing to invest in something that has already failed.

 

[bbxtreme]

Proved your point re ‘ego’?? Wtf are you on my about?
I’ve no idea how YOU train or what cycles you run. I was commenting on what you posted!
You made reference about ‘looking cool’ etc when lifting . This is what I was commenting on.

I’m not sure what your first sentence is trying to say. lol all good man, carry on and train how you please.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Because they’re easier. No one can convince me they can push harder on a single arm pull-down than a Barbell row. It’s fine to throw these in at the end, but it’s when you see guys base their entire routines out of cables and machines. I get much more out of free weights.
And free weights don’t = ego lifting either. I’m talking properly executed, not swinging and using momentum.

I think physique quality overall has declined now that free weights are no longer king

But at the end of the day this is just how I personally prefer to train

Easier how?
Push harder?
Barbell Rows make you generally more tired, but they don't bring the lats to failure like other exercises.

Barbell Rows are "harder" because your entire body is has to expend energy to stabilize the resistance profile. If you're looking for overall systemic fatigue, it's a great exercise. As you get more tired throughout the movement, your technique suffers, and the ability of your lats to do work decreases. The only muscles under tension throughout the duration of the movement are your glutes, lower back, and legs. If energy is wasted just trying to stand in the right position, the amount of lat stimulation will generally suck.

If someone were to place a personally high value on barbell rows, it would make sense to do them later in a routine. If you fatigue lats first, they stand a better chance at actually reaching failure.

 

[Blueballs]

I’m not sure what your first sentence is trying to say. lol all good man, carry on and train how you please.

Well just read what you quoted me about! It’s quite self explanatory mate.

 

[qbkilla]

It’s understandable that you don’t like his style of videos, to each his own. I don’t watch them either, and he’s my actual friend.

The titles of the videos may change, but his views don’t flip flop majorly. I’m sure, like most people, his views evolve over time. He and I have discussed this. BUT, for some reason it’s a sin to change your mind, so somehow people will do to him what they do to politicians.


In person, I appreciate his humor. He’s also catering to people looking to be half entertained, half educated. He idolizes Broderick Chavez, so I’m sure he’s tried to develop his own “big personality”.

He got lipo because he has loose/fleshy skin folds from being fat. Not uncommon. He should have been leaner on stage regardless, and should admit that to himself, but it’s just a personal choice to get the area trimmed. Again, more reasons to crucify him.

I can definitely see him being a good and fun guy to be around in person or as a co worker. I feel by incorporating the odd humor in his videos he costs himself fans because I think the majority of people youtubing hypertrophy videos are probably looking for serious content

‘Art’ and ‘science’ ffs!!!
I’d rather look at decades of anecdotal training evidence as to what built the biggest and best physiques. It’s got nothing to do with ego or not accepting change but rather following principals that have stood the test of time.

If you feel cable laterals and low test cycles are best for you then crack on but if be surprised to see an successful ‘Open’ competitor following that protocol!

That's actually an interesting example. The "evidence based " say cables are better for laterals you get the stretch lmao...and constant tension..thar part makes sense..but I did them again today for laterals after stopping and they didn't feel like they did fuck all. Then I grabbed a set of db and did John meadows style db lateral raises....pumped my delts right up...felt like 1 set was all I needed.

 

[traininsane11]

Never really got why people argue over training principles. Unless I was being paid to coach someone I literally couldn’t give a single fuck if any other person made progress in the gym, hell I hope they don’t so it makes my progress look even more impressive .

Chicken vs turkey they both do the same thing if you eat enough of it consistently same as nearly all training methods they nearly all work clearly

 

[KingOfSushi]

Why don't you like single handed pulldowns and cable side raises with a wrist cuff?

What makes someone stupid or a lower quality bodybuilder for preferring mast and primo over 19-nor?

Bodybuilders have performed one arm exercises forever. One Arm DB Rows seem to be accepted because they're old... Meadows Rows seem to be accepted because we liked John Meadows personally. One Arm Pulldowns are a legitimately good exercise, but they're shit upon because they're new?

I was the guy who did heavy deadlifts and barbell rows. They didn't translate into having a good back. Deadlifts developed my glutes and the 4-5" area surrounding my spine between my ass crack and the rest of my back, but did nothing else. John Meadows openly did not perform barbell rows, which is why he started problem solving for himself.

I also gave up on using 19-nor's blasting with high test a long, LONG time ago. Those cycles were just a recipe for gyno and high blood pressure. There's nothing inherently valuable about swelling up like a tick if you don't respond well to those compounds.

So it all leads back to "why do we have such strong negative emotion towards new things" and "why do we hold old ideas on a pedestal"? The first ideas weren't/aren't the most valuable. The old ideas weren't magical, and nobody in any threads discussed on ProMuscle can properly explain why they are. The old school guys had limited access to getting drugs compared to modern competitors, so they took what they had. They had virtually no understanding on how anything worked. It's not as if the old pros sat around in a think tank, all with average genetics, and somehow created the bodybuilding version of the United States Constitution with their genius ideas and problem solving skills.

Can you be more specific about why you have such an emotional take? Can you be more specific about what's wrong with the exercises you listed?

We can all agree that there are bad exercises and good exercises, but explaining why based on mechanics is really the only way.

Good exercises tend to have complete resistance profiles (or at least valuable portions of a resistance profile), as few limiting factors as possible, and minimal injury risk. One arm pulldowns meet those requirements pretty well. Cuffed cable raises also meet the requirements.


It would be helpful to explain for those of us who genuinely don't understand. I've been in the sport for 23 years, and have seen several generations of ideas. Old or new doesn't mean good or bad. Good is good and bad is bad.

This is a top tier post brother. Gold.

Side note, the amount of people I whom bitch about seeing new lifters do a single arm pull then continue to go “do the hard shit” and perform the worst barbell rows you’ve ever seen is hilarious. It’s like people have forgotten the actual goal of why we are in the gym.

 

[KingOfSushi]

Ego and people just hate change. What guys don’t get is that it’s all about creating maximum mechanical tension on the muscle with full range of motion.

The truth is that sometimes that is hard to do with free weights compared to a plate load or cable. But you “look” a lot cooler rowing a 100lb dumbbell with momentum and jerking then you do slowly contracting with a cable which has constant mechanical tension.

Don’t get me wrong I trained the heavy way when I was younger and loved it. It’s also how I got injuries. I’ve had so many guys train with me thinking we are about to do crazy ass workouts with crazy weights tell me they are shocked at how I train, AND how much harder it is. But more importantly how much better they feel after they train compared to slinging heavy weight.

Sometimes I think guys simply forget this is “bodybuilding”, it’s an art and there is science behind it.

Even if it is a “hit to the ego”, the realization of how much more I could get out of my training through more focused execution, not selecting movements based on my emotions but instead based on what I could connect with, etc. was more than enough to make me never look back.

 

[KingOfSushi]

Because they’re easier. No one can convince me they can push harder on a single arm pull-down than a Barbell row. It’s fine to throw these in at the end, but it’s when you see guys base their entire routines out of cables and machines. I get much more out of free weights.
And free weights don’t = ego lifting either. I’m talking properly executed, not swinging and using momentum.

I think physique quality overall has declined now that free weights are no longer king

But at the end of the day this is just how I personally prefer to train

Someone can use a single arm pull-down to target their lats. That same person can also use a rowing variant to target more of their back.

Why does it have to be either or?

 

[madg]

I think @st114 means ppl should pay more time doing the basics

For example , back is very strong bodypart on me …i didnt geyt it doing 1 arm cable pulldown .. i got it working up to 20 rep set of wide grip chins

When you can fo 5x20 wide grip chin … you will not have back width problem anymore ..

Now i have the width sure i can do the 1 arm crap to fine tune it BUT i am 10000% sure my back wouldnt be as wide if inever worked on them chins no matter what 1 arm bs i did

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I think @st114 means ppl should pay more time doing the basics

For example , back is very strong bodypart on me …i didnt geyt it doing 1 arm cable pulldown .. i got it working up to 20 rep set of wide grip chins

When you can fo 5x20 wide grip chin … you will not have back width problem anymore ..

Now i have the width sure i can do the 1 arm crap to fine tune it BUT i am 10000% sure my back wouldnt be as wide if inever worked on them chins no matter what 1 arm bs i did

Can you explain why 1 arm is fine tuning and “crap”, and why wide grip chins are a foundation?

They don’t put the elbows in the same position. Wide grip chins aren’t going to hit lats like a one arm pulldown.

You didn’t get your back from one arm pulldowns because you just didn’t do them… and you have no ability to compare or contrast. Even if you did both within your routine for years, you wouldn’t “know”… This is why an exercise should be judged based on resistance profile, limiting factors, etc.

 

[Flex500]

Can you explain why 1 arm is fine tuning and “crap”, and why wide grip chins are a foundation?

They don’t put the elbows in the same position. Wide grip chins aren’t going to hit lats like a one arm pulldown.

You didn’t get your back from one arm pulldowns because you just didn’t do them… and you have no ability to compare or contrast. Even if you did both within your routine for years, you wouldn’t “know”… This is why an exercise should be judged based on resistance profile, limiting factors, etc.

I think some of the allure and draw to the old ways of focusing solely on slinging free weights is also because it keeps you honest on progress. A 45 lbs plate is a 45lbs plate (well note the steel ones I swear they are heavier!) if you can stack 5 on each side of a bar and deadlift it 10 times you will be big (just an example, I agree it may not grow everyone's back, etc the same). If you are squatting 315 ATG for 3 sets of 20 your lower body will be big. It's 100% measurable and objective.

Things get a little gray with machines, cables and unique movements, especially early in the growth process.

All of that said, it's not because the examples you noted actually "grow you less" or are bad. I think there is a bit of romanticizing some of the "old school" barbell movements because of what I first mentioned (especially in the early years of training which always instills a bit of nostalgia later) and I think some people work harder on them. I know I do. I work harder, I push harder, I have more fun using some of the "old school" movements but it's not really that those movements are inherently often better.

 

[iwantmass]

Can you explain why 1 arm is fine tuning and “crap”, and why wide grip chins are a foundation?

They don’t put the elbows in the same position. Wide grip chins aren’t going to hit lats like a one arm pulldown.

You didn’t get your back from one arm pulldowns because you just didn’t do them… and you have no ability to compare or contrast. Even if you did both within your routine for years, you wouldn’t “know”… This is why an exercise should be judged based on resistance profile, limiting factors, etc.

It's always refreshing to see your posts. Plenty of ppl just parrot what they've heard "protein powder isn't real food" " free weights are better than machines", etc. I could go on, but there is little point. I'll say that I really enjoy your practical analysis of things, and while your personality is in moe way similar; a lot of the stuff you say reminds me of Phil Hernon. Say what you want about that guy, but he actually applied science, unlike others who just say the word "science" over and over. In most cases, no scientific was applied at all. Rest assured, if we could actually pin down the science behind lifting, especially lifting under the influence of anabolics, I doubt you would hear ppl say everyone's body is different. The problem is we don't actually have scientific studies, rather just ppl carrying on about it.

On another note. Just because someone is huge doesn't mean they are using the better training philosophy: and just because someone is small doesn't mean they are using a terrible training philosophy. Way too many other variables. It's not to state that I wouldn't consider that person's results. But it won't ever be the end all/be all for me. Ronnie coleman could have tossed around sacks of concrete and looked better than most of us

 

[mexbeast]

I enjoyed the video, the only thing i took was, "why do you go to the gym", it reminded me of the reason i lift and i pushed harder than i had been doing.! We should make a distinction between younger guys and us older guys, we can not really apply the same training variables.

 

[KingOfSushi]

Can you explain why 1 arm is fine tuning and “crap”, and why wide grip chins are a foundation?

They don’t put the elbows in the same position. Wide grip chins aren’t going to hit lats like a one arm pulldown.

You didn’t get your back from one arm pulldowns because you just didn’t do them… and you have no ability to compare or contrast. Even if you did both within your routine for years, you wouldn’t “know”… This is why an exercise should be judged based on resistance profile, limiting factors, etc.

I think @st114 means ppl should pay more time doing the basics

For example , back is very strong bodypart on me …i didnt geyt it doing 1 arm cable pulldown .. i got it working up to 20 rep set of wide grip chins

When you can fo 5x20 wide grip chin … you will not have back width problem anymore ..

Now i have the width sure i can do the 1 arm crap to fine tune it BUT i am 10000% sure my back wouldnt be as wide if inever worked on them chins no matter what 1 arm bs i did

The amount of time I wasted doing for example barbell bench press cause I had the same mindset of having to do the basics when I was younger is embarrassing.

If my goal is to grow muscle, why not choose the exercise that allows you to best stimulate that muscle?

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

nah, Mike is probably, if not certainly the biggest clown in this "industry," and I've been this shit for 20+ years. While there are laundry list of reasons, the fact alone that he showed up at his last show looking like an 8 week out melted candle, and then after placing dog shit, blamed / made the excuse that "mY tAn wAs OfF" is proof...He also went all in ultra high volume training is superior in 2018, and then did a 180 and backtracked. He didn't acknowledge he was wrong though, he just defaulted to the "I am bigger than you, so I am right" bullshit. No, what you are is just a drugged up retard.

 

[d4ve]

I feel like this unnecessarily two-sided argument would go away if it weren't for the perception that one "side" - precise training and choosier (arguably better) exercise selection - just doesn't train very hard.

Maybe that perception is warranted. Nobody's collected stats here, but it does seem like the one-arm pulldown "people" (I like one-arm pulldowns, funny that we so often zero in on this movement) are often the ones leaving 5+ reps in the tank on their supposed working sets.

Or maybe that perception is off, and we just notice what we want to notice. Lord knows there are plenty of people with shitty physiques doing horrendous-looking barbell rows.

Personally I kind of wish more of the barbell basics worked better for bodybuilding - namely deadlifts because they're a pet lift. But I have to admit they do almost nothing for me physique-wise, and they take a lot - time, energy, a lingering fatigue hours after the session, and recovery resources. Even loaded to the gills as most of us are, my back has grown far better without deadlifting, even when the effort and volume of actual lat and trap exercises has stayed the same.

I still do some T-bars and RDLs here and there, in part because the neurotic part of me thinks that without them I'll lose the spinal erectors I built through years of powerlifting...not sure if that's even a concern, really.

But mostly I just admit to myself that if I do certain movements, it's because I like them and accept the tradeoff of results vs. fun in the gym. And I do that less and less now because physique progression (and not feeling like trash) is fun