Training for intent vs training for fun with Kuba

[massephase]

The amount of public hate you is WILD

It's crazy, There's this german influencer that is totally down to earth, just gives info on how to train in a sensible manner and documents his attempt to get a pro card and the amount of know it all, ignorant fucktards putting him down and "correcting" him in the comments is unbelievable. Since a lot of it happens on instagram, you can look up the profile pics of the guys commenting and they almost always have laughable physiques compared to him (think the guy is 5'7 or so and offseason at 250-260 with visible abs).

 

[KingOfSushi]

I think some of the allure and draw to the old ways of focusing solely on slinging free weights is also because it keeps you honest on progress. A 45 lbs plate is a 45lbs plate (well note the steel ones I swear they are heavier!) if you can stack 5 on each side of a bar and deadlift it 10 times you will be big (just an example, I agree it may not grow everyone's back, etc the same). If you are squatting 315 ATG for 3 sets of 20 your lower body will be big. It's 100% measurable and objective.

Things get a little gray with machines, cables and unique movements, especially early in the growth process.

All of that said, it's not because the examples you noted actually "grow you less" or are bad. I think there is a bit of romanticizing some of the "old school" barbell movements because of what I first mentioned (especially in the early years of training which always instills a bit of nostalgia later) and I think some people work harder on them. I know I do. I work harder, I push harder, I have more fun using some of the "old school" movements but it's not really that those movements are inherently often better.

I feel it’s the exact opposite. If you go into the gym and your goal is just to “sling heavy weight”, then it’s incredibly easy to just sling around tons of plates on a barbell and just muscle fuck “row” it.

It’s way easier to cheat while just “slinging weight” and performing shitty reps just to beat the logbook on a bb row or t bar than it is on say a chest supported row machine.

The reality is, a 45 plate is not just a 45 plate. You can, for example, give two people the same set of 80lbs dumbbells. If the person focused on just slinging as much weight as they can does a press with it will likely not be as developed as the person pressing with control.

 

[KingOfSushi]

I feel like this unnecessarily two-sided argument would go away if it weren't for the perception that one "side" - precise training and choosier (arguably better) exercise selection - just doesn't train very hard.

Maybe that perception is warranted. Nobody's collected stats here, but it does seem like the one-arm pulldown "people" (I like one-arm pulldowns, funny that we so often zero in on this movement) are often the ones leaving 5+ reps in the tank on their supposed working sets.

Or maybe that perception is off, and we just notice what we want to notice. Lord knows there are plenty of people with shitty physiques doing horrendous-looking barbell rows.

Personally I kind of wish more of the barbell basics worked better for bodybuilding - namely deadlifts because they're a pet lift. But I have to admit they do almost nothing for me physique-wise, and they take a lot - time, energy, a lingering fatigue hours after the session, and recovery resources. Even loaded to the gills as most of us are, my back has grown far better without deadlifting, even when the effort and volume of actual lat and trap exercises has stayed the same.

I still do some T-bars and RDLs here and there, in part because the neurotic part of me thinks that without them I'll lose the spinal erectors I built through years of powerlifting...not sure if that's even a concern, really.

But mostly I just admit to myself that if I do certain movements, it's because I like them and accept the tradeoff of results vs. fun in the gym. And I do that less and less now because physique progression (and not feeling like trash) is fun

This is what I was trying to say earlier. To think you can’t train “smart” or controlled yet also intensely makes no sense to me.

 

[Flex500]

I feel it’s the exact opposite. If you go into the gym and your goal is just to “sling heavy weight”, then it’s incredibly easy to just sling around tons of plates on a barbell and just muscle fuck “row” it.

It’s way easier to cheat while just “slinging weight” and performing shitty reps just to beat the logbook on a bb row or t bar than it is on say a chest supported row machine.

The reality is, a 45 plate is not just a 45 plate. You can, for example, give two people the same set of 80lbs dumbbells. If the person focused on just slinging as much weight as they can does a press with it will likely not be as developed as the person pressing with control.

I can see where you are coming from when it comes to week to week progress or small increments of time or people that are just doing this "for fun" and casually (think of the 28 year old who has been benching 225 for 9 years and lifts his ass way up off the bench to eek an extra 2.5lbs on each side). But when you are talking about most of the people here in a bodybuilding setting who are talking about going from 225 squats to 525 or 315 deadlifts to 600 or 225 benches to repping 405 I mean nobody is shimmy-ing their bodies to cheat that and if you are putting up those numbers, taking drugs, and eating to grow, you will be big. I do get your point and what you are getting at though.

 

[KingOfSushi]

I can see where you are coming from when it comes to week to week progress or small increments of time or people that are just doing this "for fun" and casually (think of the 28 year old who has been benching 225 for 9 years and lifts his ass way up off the bench to eek an extra 2.5lbs on each side). But when you are talking about most of the people here in a bodybuilding setting who are talking about going from 225 squats to 525 or 315 deadlifts to 600 or 225 benches to repping 405 I mean nobody is shimmy-ing their bodies to cheat that and if you are putting up those numbers, taking drugs, and eating to grow, you will be big. I do get your point and what you are getting at though.

Perhaps also it seems I may have misinterpreted (or took too literal) when you said slinging heavy weight lol

 

[Flex500]

Perhaps also it seems I may have misinterpreted (or took too literal) when you said slinging heavy weight lol

yeah I wasn't insinuating it necessarily literally. But like I said, I get the core of your point which I don't actually disagree with.

 

[dantes]

I think Mike has put out some decent content over the years and some clear click bait content. I do find it funny some in this thread allege he has been needlessly attacked when Mike himself without provocation has completely torn into others himself.

 

[qbkilla]

I'll stand by the below until the day I die

- the explosion of "exercise science " has been a net negative for physique advancement

- most, not all but most people...would look way better than they do today of they could go back in time and delete from their life every bit of exeecise science content they ever saw

 

[KingOfSushi]

I'll stand by the below until the day I die

- the explosion of "exercise science " has been a net negative for physique advancement

- most, not all but most people...would look way better than they do today of they could go back in time and delete from their life every bit of exeecise science content they ever saw

Respectfully haven’t you essentially been maintaining for like 5+ years? How can you really assess any of this?

I agree not to overthink, but I’ve also been able to apply things I’ve learned.

 

[qbkilla]

Respectfully haven’t you essentially been maintaining for like 5+ years? How can you really assess any of this?

I agree not to overthink, but I’ve also been able to apply things I’ve learned.

Correct I don't aim to look like a bodybuilder, just lean wirh muscle. But I 100 percent lost lbm once I stopped lifting like a "dumb bro" and started to try various things that have been promoted in the name of "science ". In my opinion everything that I, or anyone ever needed, was available on bodybuilding forums 10-15 years ago.

 

[Flex500]

Correct I don't aim to look like a bodybuilder, just lean wirh muscle. But I 100 percent lost lbm once I stopped lifting like a "dumb bro" and started to try various things that have been promoted in the name of "science ". In my opinion everything that I, or anyone ever needed, was available on bodybuilding forums 10-15 years ago.

Do you think some of it is purely due to effort? I found the same as you...but I also wonder if some of it was due to my level of effort and intensity.

 

[qbkilla]

Do you think some of it is purely due to effort? I found the same as you...but I also wonder if some of it was due to my level of effort and intensity.

I think the most important thing is consistency, followed by intensity and progress. All these big rocks have been known for years. Then exercise science came along and distracted many of us from these key principles...putting an emphasis on volume, frequency, splits, rom, rest intervals, resistance curves, "better exercise ". The mind can only focus on so many variables at a time...I guess a term would be jack of all trades master of none.

 

[Flocci]

Do you think some of it is purely due to effort? I found the same as you...but I also wonder if some of it was due to my level of effort and intensity.

Im wondering what you guys changed, what was different, why, or what caused you to actually lose muscle. Im surprised. Were there any changes in lifestyle, diet or drugs that could have played a part ?

How did it look before vs after you lots muscle, and did you regain the muscle if/when you went back to your old training style?

I dont understand how people can forget about effort and busting your ass on every workset while trying to implement some of this science or "optimal crowd" stuff. What do you expect if you dont work hard?

 

[Flex500]

I think the most important thing is consistency, followed by intensity and progress. All these big rocks have been known for years. Then exercise science came along and distracted many of us from these key principles...putting an emphasis on volume, frequency, splits, rom, rest intervals, resistance curves, "better exercise ". The mind can only focus on so many variables at a time...I guess a term would be jack of all trades master of none.

agree...I noticed when I got too analytical i start to skip workouts, put in less effort, and less focus on progress

 

[Flocci]

Im wondering what you guys changed, what was different, why, or what caused you to actually lose muscle. Im surprised. Were there any changes in lifestyle, diet or drugs that could have played a part ?

How did it look before vs after you lots muscle, and did you regain the muscle if/when you went back to your old training style?

I dont understand how people can forget about effort and busting your ass on every workset while trying to implement some of this science or "optimal crowd" stuff. What do you expect if you dont work hard?

and of course, do it all with consistentcy and having your diet, lifestyle, sleep and everything else in check*?

 

[KingOfSushi]

Correct I don't aim to look like a bodybuilder, just lean wirh muscle. But I 100 percent lost lbm once I stopped lifting like a "dumb bro" and started to try various things that have been promoted in the name of "science ". In my opinion everything that I, or anyone ever needed, was available on bodybuilding forums 10-15 years ago.

I would be VERY shocked if, with PEDs + a high protein diet + eating maintenance, you actually lost LBM because you trained more “scientifically”.

What are you calling scientific? I seriously can’t see how you’d lose muscle unless you just legit stopped giving any effort at all

 

[astrosfan123]

nah, Mike is probably, if not certainly the biggest clown in this "industry," and I've been this shit for 20+ years. While there are laundry list of reasons, the fact alone that he showed up at his last show looking like an 8 week out melted candle, and then after placing dog shit, blamed / made the excuse that "mY tAn wAs OfF" is proof...He also went all in ultra high volume training is superior in 2018, and then did a 180 and backtracked. He didn't acknowledge he was wrong though, he just defaulted to the "I am bigger than you, so I am right" bullshit. No, what you are is just a drugged up retard.

facts dude is a joke and single handedly ruined progress for many people especially kids lol. The fatigue gods will get them kids if they take anything to failure. Its gotten to the point where if i see a kid doing an awkward looking thing i know they saw that clown do it. The amount of people that think because someone has a Dr. in front of their name they should be worshipped and everything they say is gospel is wild. But keep on hanging upside down and do curls because Dr. does it

 

[Flocci]

facts dude is a joke and single handedly ruined progress for many people especially kids lol. The fatigue gods will get them kids if they take anything to failure. Its gotten to the point where if i see a kid doing an awkward looking thing i know they saw that clown do it. The amount of people that think because someone has a Dr. in front of their name they should be worshipped and everything they say is gospel is wild. But keep on hanging upside down and do curls because Dr. does it

I dont think Mike is to blame for the fatigue fear mongering, thats chris beardsley and paul carter parroting that stuff and all the small kids reposting and fearmongering and thinking they are a sensitive snowflake without seeing how much they actually can handle.

 

[Flocci]

I dont think Mike is to blame for the fatigue fear mongering, thats chris beardsley and paul carter parroting that stuff and all the small kids reposting and fearmongering and thinking they are a sensitive snowflake without seeing how much they actually can handle.

Mike does emphasize the fatigue stimulus ratio as he calls it which basically goes hand in hand with his higher frequency training philosophy where bodyparts and things like systemic fatigue can push you over the edge if you dont program things properly and hes a big fan of the reps in reserve concept which basically is just another fatigue management tool to have you working as hard as you can within your training volume, frequency and exercise selection.

Where people go wrong is that they take these things for gospel and think it applies to everyone under all circumstances, but they are just concepts or principles or tools you can use when these things, like recovery, become an issue from a stimulus/volume/intensity/frequenct POV. People need to experiment and try for themselves and see what works for them, all the evidence based stuff, research, science and nerd stuff isnt to give you the recipe, its to give you the ingredients for you to figure out whats the best recipe for you, if that makes sense. Its to give you a nudge towards what might work and what might work best for most of people, but you have to use your own experiences and experiment and see how how it works for your individual body. Everyone isnt ronnie coleman and everyone isnt jason genova..

 

[Flocci]

Another pet peeve is that all these influencers make these misleading videos like "the best exercises for ... bodypart" when that depends on your build, biomechanics and insertions. Its so much misleading information like this that confuses people when they dont know the basics behind it all. Its like the people getting into PED use and think that peptide495 that was made 4 weeks ago is the next big thing while ignoring a basic cycle of 300-400mg test for 16 weeks. If you skip the early learning process and try to skip steps, its going to bite you in the ass.