Cutler: "In my 20 years of training, I've never trained to failure on any set. Ever."

[Elvia1023]

I can't think of a reason I would ever do a second set with the same weight unless something went wrong with my first set. What would I be after? I won't be stronger on my 2nd set will I?

1. If I am stronger on my 2nd set, would wouldn't I want to make my previous set lighter so I could be even STRONGER?

2. If I'm weaker on my 2nd sets, what is the point? I won't achieve more overload, I might as well go lighter and get more out of exercise in ways other than overload.

3. If I'm the same strength on my 2nd set, they the weight must be so light, neither set will produce overload.

I did multiple sets with the same weight sometimes in my first 10 years of bodybuilding, but in the last 20 years of bodybuilding, I never have except rare cases that had a reason.

I am the same but TT48 makes some excellent points. I will always try to warm up and increase weight until I get to my working set(s). If I do more than 1 working set it's either a heavier weight than the 1st for less reps or backing down and using higher reps (or a drop set).

There is no wrong answer to any of this and just different approaches. I have trained using the same weight for multiple working sets and enjoyed it before. One example could be your standard 5 sets of 5-8 reps on pressing movements. Another example was the Serge Nubret type of approach picking a lighter weight and doing 10 sets of (10-15) reps with no more than 20 secs rest between sets. You basically pick a weight you will start failing on set number 5 or 6 and you just grind out the other sets. Again just another good approach especially for guys who want to minimize the risk of injury and don't want to be lifting huge weights.

Your squat post is basically how I train occasionally. I may do 30, 40, 50 reps but I failed much before and either using mini rest periods (5 secs) or even just partials to finish my set. Although true failure sets for me never have a set number of reps planned and I just go until I can't anymore. I wonder how many on here have done a Milos Sarcev style of training with giant sets. I used to go to the gym at midnight so I could do that very thing. Just another example of a high rep approach that could wipe anyone out.

 

[FK86]

I wonder how many on here have done a Milos Sarcev style of training with giant sets.

I did it years ago when he was training Hide, Silvio Samuel, and Luke Wood. Worst DOMS I've ever experienced in my life. It created a weird adaptive response where nothing really makes me that sore anymore.

 

[Biggerp73]

One set to failure is intense.

It's not the only way to train intense.

You take a weight you would hit failure at 2 or 3 reps. Now you get under that weight and do ten sets of singles.

Or take a weight you would fail at 10-12 reps, and do 4-6 sets of 8.

Etc.

Now I'm not going to say you guys who like HIT/DC training are simply lazy asses who don't like to spend time in the gym and don't like to do more than one set. No, I realize you guys train that way because in your experience it gives you the best results.

Furthermore, if you guys really want to be all about intensity, why not 20 sets to failure? When I first started training as a teenager I did every set to failure, sometimes 20 or more. Now that's intense training.

But I have tried HIT/DC, and I've tried higher volume without hitting failure, and it's simply silly to say that one set to failure is "harder" than the other.

I can tell you love lifting, so many people in the gym like this, none of them go near failure, they just like to look and feel cool while lifting "heavy" weight. I don't call this going hard, I call it phoning it in, this is what I'm talking about and complaining about and everyone else is too nowadays, no one trains really hard, everyone stops way short of failure, it's more about the lifting then the results.

Lol you know all that about me do you

You are welcome to come train w/ me anytime. City Sports in Berkeley.

 

[suppdude]

One of the most important things you can learn in resistance training: failure is always mental, in another place, at another time, in another state of mind, you can always push harder.



1. doing the same weight on multiple sets always seems pointless to me.

2. did you REALLY fail at 30? You mean there was NO WAY you could do 1 more rep? because I know if I picked a weight I could do for 30, and I failed, I could easily find a way to do another rep.

3. do you know about the 20 rep, 1 set squat workout that was popularized in the 90s? Pick a weight you think you can squat for 10 reps, your "10rm" then squat it for 20 reps. You do one set and you are done. This is one of the hardest things I have ever done, WAY harder than sets I've done that are over twice as heavy.

Point 3: widow maker via Dante Trudel


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[andishehhank]

With this sport, the training isn't consistent from day one until today. The training varies. Jay went to the gym to get a pump. It worked for then, but he didn't get that big starting out that way. Do what will make you biggest/most developed, the fastest, right now. It varies depending on your level.

 

[Swifto]

One set to failure is intense.

It's not the only way to train intense.

You take a weight you would hit failure at 2 or 3 reps. Now you get under that weight and do ten sets of singles.

Or take a weight you would fail at 10-12 reps, and do 4-6 sets of 8.

Etc.

Now I'm not going to say you guys who like HIT/DC training are simply lazy asses who don't like to spend time in the gym and don't like to do more than one set. No, I realize you guys train that way because in your experience it gives you the best results.

Furthermore, if you guys really want to be all about intensity, why not 20 sets to failure? When I first started training as a teenager I did every set to failure, sometimes 20 or more. Now that's intense training.

But I have tried HIT/DC, and I've tried higher volume without hitting failure, and it's simply silly to say that one set to failure is "harder" than the other.



Lol you know all that about me do you

You are welcome to come train w/ me anytime. City Sports in Berkeley.

You missed out recovery and frequency.

Its not about doing 20 sets for failure. Its about doing what's needed so you can recover in 48 hours and hit that same muscle again.

You wouldnt be able to recover optimally doing 20 sets to failure for a single muscle group and would need longer to hit the same muscle again and cause hypertrophy.

I've been doing full body work every other day. Works great for me. No doubt it will stall like every other training program and I'll have to change it to continue getting an adaptive response. Upper/lower, push/pull/legs or something less frequent with more volume...

There is no right or wrong way to train. Create an adaptive response by continued progressive overload and you'll grow in surplus calories.

 

[Beti ona]

Turning 4 reps into 8 reps is more difficult than turning 12 reps into 16 reps despite both being a 4 rep gap.

The increase in reps may be the same, but the increase in weight is much higher with lower reps.

 

[Beti ona]

You dont consistently do the same weight or shouldn't anyways. If you hit the same weight and reps for 3 sets, then next time you bump the weight. Eventually you'll hit a point where you fail to get say 3 sets, 10 reps, might get 10,9,8, so next time weight stays same and you hit a 10,10,9, weight stays the same, all the sudden the weight you couldn't hit 3x10 on two weeks ago, you can now. Means you've built strength in the muscle and the next time you preform that exercise, weight should be increased. Straight sets are common in a lot of workout programs.

I like to use this system, you just go to the maximum from the first series and you will only be doing less repetitions as you continue making sets. It is similar to the pull up, you start with 10/12 reps, and then, you will do less in each successive set.

It is also a comfortable system because you do not have to worry about changing the weights, and if you do, it will be to reduce and not to increase, because from the first set you are lifting near the limits.

 

[econ mba]

If you believe this I have a great deal on some beachfront property for you.

no disrespect, but you butchered the quote.

it's a deal on ocean-front property in Arizona. The idea is that there is no ocean-front property in AZ. Simply saying that you have beachfront property for sale doesn't imply anything foolish. Get it?

Carry on.

 

[Kaladryn]

Volume is a form of overload

If you can handle do 225 for 10 reps, and are able to do 3 sets of 10 with 225 later down the road, you have caused an adaptation.

You are looking at load and reps as the only form of overload. Volume is also in there.

Volume is a limiting form of overload as you reach that ceiling fast, but like anything: can be used as part of a program.

And I'm with you when it comes to DC progressive overload type of training; that's my preferred approach as well, but I've learned not to marry myself to one idea or approach.

So really this debate may come down to something else entirely: Is adaptation created from a physiological stimulus or is it from a neurological one? Is a muscle like a bone, it heals stronger when it is injured? Or is the damage only an effect and not a cause? Old science says muscle damage causes the muscle to heal stronger but new science (officially adopted by the College of Sports Medicine around 10 years ago, although has been known for many decades) says that muscle adaptation to resistance training is a neurological stimulus to overload.

A few points relevant to many of the excellent posts above:

1. I'm not a HIT zealot, I recovered from this affliction many years ago. I use multiple sets these days, my intention is often to wear myself out for my heavy set so that I can fail at a low rep range with less weight for injury prevention. I train closer to Dexter than Dorian these days.

2. That being said, with everything I have ever done, the more I have applied HIT principles, the better results I have had.

3. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle as usual. You could actually look at the sets I do before my heavy set exactly the type of "not to failure" training others are talking about.

4. Other factors that are incredibly important: tendons, connective tissue in general, exercise mastery, joint health, injury prevention, etc. All of these factors may favor various training styles more than others.

Pretty good debate

 

[OutToLunch]

@ Kal, so instead of doing let’s say two straight sets with the same weight. You prefer to work up to a single top/Heavy set and then do a lighter set(s) as a back off set(s)?

 

[maldorf]

I did it years ago when he was training Hide, Silvio Samuel, and Luke Wood. Worst DOMS I've ever experienced in my life. It created a weird adaptive response where nothing really makes me that sore anymore.

That's how it was for me when John Parillo trained me on legs. The DOMS I had lasted for about 1 week and was intense. We would do it at night and I would get home by around 10 pm. I couldn't fall asleep though until about 3 am, then had to get up around 5:30 to teach. Ouch. Once I went back to my regular leg workout it was like a stroll in the park.

 

[suppdude]

@ Kal, so instead of doing let’s say two straight sets with the same weight. You prefer to work up to a single top/Heavy set and then do a lighter set(s) as a back off set(s)?

That’s what I do. Typically 5-9 followed by 12-15.


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[maldorf]

@ Kal, so instead of doing let’s say two straight sets with the same weight. You prefer to work up to a single top/Heavy set and then do a lighter set(s) as a back off set(s)?

The problem is, that if you lift a couple of sets before you hit your heaviest weight then you have already fatigued the muscle enough so that you aren't lifting as much weight as you could if the muscle was fresh.

What worked best for me was doing about 3 warm up sets, don't even count those as real sets, where I use progressively heavier weights but only do about 1/2 or 1/3 the number of reps that I can do in those sets. Do it to get the muscle warmed up and all of your connective tissue ready for the heavy load. Once you have done your 3 warm up sets you load up the bar with the heaviest weight you are going to do for the day. Sets after that you will most probably have to drop some weight to keep the reps up some, or you could just let the reps drop each set.

 

[xpoc]

The problem is, that if you lift a couple of sets before you hit your heaviest weight then you have already fatigued the muscle enough so that you aren't lifting as much weight as you could if the muscle was fresh.

What worked best for me was doing about 3 warm up sets, don't even count those as real sets, where I use progressively heavier weights but only do about 1/2 or 1/3 the number of reps that I can do in those sets. Do it to get the muscle warmed up and all of your connective tissue ready for the heavy load. Once you have done your 3 warm up sets you load up the bar with the heaviest weight you are going to do for the day. Sets after that you will most probably have to drop some weight to keep the reps up some, or you could just let the reps drop each set.

I find this to be the most effective method also. I learned it from a powerlifter back when I was training for a meet. Don't waste your energy ramping up... we just called the first few sets preparation/prep sets. It might look something like 95x12. 135x6. 185x1. 225x1. 245x1. 275x1. Those were the prep sets and we didn't count them.

The first working set of the day was the heaviest. Then we would reduce the weight on each subsequent sets but add more reps to get in our volume. Example: 315x5. 295x7. 275.8. 245x9-10.

 

[OutToLunch]

The problem is, that if you lift a couple of sets before you hit your heaviest weight then you have already fatigued the muscle enough so that you aren't lifting as much weight as you could if the muscle was fresh.



What worked best for me was doing about 3 warm up sets, don't even count those as real sets, where I use progressively heavier weights but only do about 1/2 or 1/3 the number of reps that I can do in those sets. Do it to get the muscle warmed up and all of your connective tissue ready for the heavy load. Once you have done your 3 warm up sets you load up the bar with the heaviest weight you are going to do for the day. Sets after that you will most probably have to drop some weight to keep the reps up some, or you could just let the reps drop each set.

Similar to the way DC prescribes to warm up: 12,8,4 then your work sets I believe.

 

[OutToLunch]

That’s what I do. Typically 5-9 followed by 12-15.


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You feel this is more effective than same weight on both sets and failing at lets say 12 reps on your first set and 9 reps on the second set?

 

[OutToLunch]

Versus John meadows warm up/work up approach using feeder sets of 4-6 reps

 

[D-NUTZ]

I find this to be the most effective method also. I learned it from a powerlifter back when I was training for a meet. Don't waste your energy ramping up... we just called the first few sets preparation/prep sets. It might look something like 95x12. 135x6. 185x1. 225x1. 245x1. 275x1. Those were the prep sets and we didn't count them.



The first working set of the day was the heaviest. Then we would reduce the weight on each subsequent sets but add more reps to get in our volume. Example: 315x5. 295x7. 275.8. 245x9-10.

This is exactly how I train and warmup. I’m freshest for my most important set and allows me to get the most out of it.

I have my main movement for each body part I start with and try to progress on. A top set followed by two backoffs. I have been doing a top set in the 4-6 range, then back off for 6-8 and then 8-10.

All to failure where failure for me is as many reps as i can get while still feeling my target muscles. Depending on the exercise that’s sometimes failure where i can no longer get a positive rep like on a smith Shoulder Press or sometimes that’s where I’m cheating too much or using accessory muscles to finish reps like on a stiff leg or barbell Row. If I can get the top number in the range, I add weight the next workout. If not, I keep the same weight for that set the next time.

After following this thread, I decided to experiment and increase my ranges a little higher. That 4-6 set would completely wipe me out physically and mentally and not in a good way for hypertrophy. Starting yesterday I decided to do my 3 sets of 6-8, 8-10, 10-12. Not much of an increase but I’m thinking it’ll be a nice change and lead to better progress.

I tend to have 2 exercises per body part I rotate as my progressive exercise and then the rest of the workout I do whatever I feel I need to workout on, ideas I see on social media, whatever keeps my workouts fun and productive.

I hit a bodypart roughly every 5-6 day’s so therefore I’m hitting my main exercise once every 10-12 days.

Incline barbell and slight incline smith presses for chest.

Barbell rows and neutral grip pull-ups for back.

Smith press and seated barbell press (or sometimes machine press depending on gym in at) for Shoulders.

Smith squats and barbell stiff leg dead’s for legs.

So yesterday for chest I did incline barbell Press (roughly 30 degree incline). I got 345x8, 285x11, 245x12. So I’ll add 5 pounds to my 1st and 3rd sets and 10 to my 2nd as I overshot my range. On those, I didn’t have a spotter this time so I may have left a rep in the tank to make sure I could rack it but one more rep on all those sets would have been iffy. So next chest day I have slight incline smith press as my main movement.

The higher rep ranges were a nice change from my usual, and I think I’m gong to stick with it. Pump was much greater, I felt less wiped out (a bad wiped out), and I was able to keep my intensity up longer during the workout than if I killed myself with a 4-6 set, and I could keep rest periods down.

 

[Biggerp73]

You missed out recovery and frequency.

Its not about doing 20 sets for failure. Its about doing what's needed so you can recover in 48 hours and hit that same muscle again.

You wouldnt be able to recover optimally doing 20 sets to failure for a single muscle group and would need longer to hit the same muscle again and cause hypertrophy.

I've been doing full body work every other day. Works great for me. No doubt it will stall like every other training program and I'll have to change it to continue getting an adaptive response. Upper/lower, push/pull/legs or something less frequent with more volume...

There is no right or wrong way to train. Create an adaptive response by continued progressive overload and you'll grow in surplus calories.

No, I didn't miss that, it just wasn't the point I was making. In fact the very reason why I stay away from failure is to allow for recovery. The point I was making was in response to all the guys saying non-failure training isn't intense. If it's simply all about intensity then do 20 sets to failure. Trust me if that caused the best results I would do it. I love training hard. But it's not all about being as intense as possible (as you said). We have to think about recovery. Which is why I stay away from failure.