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GH, slin, and IGF dosing

OuchThatHurts

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Thought I'd start a discussion thread on concomitant GH, IGF, insulin (natural and unnatural) use to increase hypertrophy since so many people ask about it. Many won't divulge their secrets or research because they are trainers or coaches and don't want to give away their pearls for free (which is perfectly understandable). But there is no reason we can't discuss these things on an open forum either.

So I'm going to throw a bunch of stuff up against the wall here and see what sticks and what doesn't (true/likely or unlikely/outright false). Yes, yet another hGH/IGF/slin thread (and what I personally do myself FWIW).

And we can discuss from both your experiences and mine. Cool?

Since we know why/when a healthy person produces insulin naturally, let's focus on GH (somatatropin) and subsequently IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Factor One) for now. These are released by the body at three times:

1) when we are fasting/hungry to prepare for receiving a meal, and to help free up body fat for energy via β3 receptors and in anticipation of those to-be-consumed calories,

2) after a successful workout or hard days work (much like after a successful hunt by our ancient ancestors) and for our purposes on this board, progressive overload training for hypertrophy and hyperplasia — through cell growth and stem cells (satellite cells) locally. Although satellite cells only when there is enough nutrients in the body to support the transition of a stem cell to a new cell,

3) and during deep sleep after we physically exert ourselves in order to modulate (in this case, upregulate) MGF locally which exerts protective effects on muscle, tendons, CNS, and organs while using satellite cells (stem cells) to repair, replace, and possibly add, e.g. to grow and strengthen skeletal muscle and tendons.

So that as presynaptic α (alpha) receptors are then agonized (from the hunt), GH is released, you relax and eat your kill (post-workout meal), and fall into a sleep deep where more GH is released, and so on. It is then that your liver dumps IGF into your bloodstream in vivo.

- Exogenous rhGH (GH) and rhIGF's (IGF-1)*

*Note: there are several forms of IGF and associated binding proteins but we'll focus on exogenous IGF-1 and its analogs (e.g. LR3 IGF-1) here

So, to have elevated IGF-1 levels when taking rhGH, you have to either take insulin immediately after your rhGH dose with a bunch of food (just like after the hunt), or you have to take your rhGH dose, and then eat a bunch of food and hope it creates enough of an insulin release to trigger a natural IGF-1 pulse.

That may be difficult to replicate several times per day, which would be needed to have constantly elevated IGF-1 since it does not have an impressive half life in vivo. Enter LR3 IGF-1. This IGF analog on the other hand, does have an impressive half-life, and it doesnt need any of the steps above to exert its growth other than lots of nutritious food - which is the most important factor in the equation. LR3 IGF-1 is still active whether high levels of GH are present or not. But because LR3 is very potent in growth, it can also be its major drawback (e.g. metastatic cells).

So LR3 IGF-1 (or natural IGF-1 if you can maintain it) is the apex of muscular growth. You dont have to worry about exogenous insulin, you dont have to worry about forcing your GH levels higher. You just need to eat big.

So when you consider all this, receptor grade LR3 IGF-1 which while expensive (last I looked, it was $300/1,000mcg), doesn't have to be if you consider the money you would save on GH and insulin. Just continue to eat a boatload of calories and pump yourself with LR3 postworkout and on off days. It's still difficult to endorse since super high levels of IGF can also have bad effects (enlarged viscera, acromegaly, metastatic cancer cell reproduction), and furthermore, GH has other positive effects. So what might we do to get as close to that line without crossing it?

A competitive bodybuilder would want to blast all three. Would have to. He'll have a gut, but it is what it is. Not much changing it at that level. And our competing pros and amateurs here are most likely doing exactly that or similar in order to be and remain competitive. It's what ProfessionalMuscle.com is all about.

For the gym rat who just wants to be big? You could try GH, IGF, and slin but only for limited durations. Since IGF-1 activates satellite cells, you will continue growing (as I do) for months after even a 2-week stretch of LR3 IGF-1. And just continue rhGH use while pumping units of insulin 30-60 minutes after the GH. Maybe occasionally a two-week stretch of LR3 post-workout. That seems like the ideal scenario (at least for me).

Thoughts and discussion are welcome. Have a great week!

O.T.Hurts
 
If IGF was a potent anabolic it would be way more popular. Most just said it caused some temporary vascularity and pumps. I've never seen anyone attribute any types of gains that can be seen on the scale to it. Anyone else? I've also heard many say the Increlex was garbage and if you're going to do it go with the LR3. I don't believe the "receptor grade" is any different either. But sure, use it, just in case it helps a little over time.
 
If IGF was a potent anabolic it would be way more popular. Most just said it caused some temporary vascularity and pumps. I've never seen anyone attribute any types of gains that can be seen on the scale to it. Anyone else? I've also heard many say the Increlex was garbage and if you're going to do it go with the LR3. I don't believe the "receptor grade" is any different either. But sure, use it, just in case it helps a little over time.
This would be my question. I have searched to see what people who have taken increlex say and it seems it is very expensive and temporary. The other forms of igf being used, have people tested the product or got lab work to show it is legit and raises levels? I agree it is not a very talked about compound I always assumed because most choose to not use it. I remember when it came out it was supposed to be a game changer, back in 2004-05.
 
Curious to HGH and Insulin raising IGF-1. Right now I pin HGH pre cardio and again pre workout. I use slin pre and post workout. Would my HGH be better placed pre and post workout for optimal IGF-1 levels?
 

Results: GH and insulin separately produced an increase in whole-body and skeletal muscle protein net balance. GH plus insulin was associated with a higher net balance of protein than was insulin alone.

Conclusions: r-hGH and insulin in the presence of amino acids and glucose combine to improve whole-body and skeletal muscle protein kinetics.
 
i have used a dozen or so brands of LR3 over the years. 1 out of 10 were junk. 2 were really good. Using them I looked 20 lbs heavier and 5% less bodyfat. Only problem is it goes away fast and then ty to find a decent batch again is like looking for the holy grail.
 
Can anyone answer this. LR3 dosing has generally been around 100mcg. Why not 1mg or more? How was it determined that this is a reasonable dose for a human, what is it based on? Palumbo used to say you shouldn't use more than 10mcg but I don't think that was based on anything at all either LOL.
 
Can anyone answer this. LR3 dosing has generally been around 100mcg. Why not 1mg or more? How was it determined that this is a reasonable dose for a human, what is it based on? Palumbo used to say you shouldn't use more than 10mcg but I don't think that was based on anything at all either LOL.
🤷🏻‍♂️
i use 200 preworkout, have used 300 on occasion. didnt notice a huge difference between 2 and 3
 
If IGF was a potent anabolic it would be way more popular. Most just said it caused some temporary vascularity and pumps. I've never seen anyone attribute any types of gains that can be seen on the scale to it. Anyone else? I've also heard many say the Increlex was garbage and if you're going to do it go with the LR3. I don't believe the "receptor grade" is any different either. But sure, use it, just in case it helps a little over time.
Popularity and effectiveness are not synonymous. I suspect the lack of popularity is far more likely caused by the inconsistency and sketchy availability of LR3. Also, the resultant abdominal distension caused by IGF. Just a consideration.

What's the reason for the GH gut then @OuchThatHurts ? The slin, the igf-1, or GH? Or all of them?
I would suspect 'IGF1 Gut' to be a better name for it. But more info is needed. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22241077/
The distended gut is from all the forced feeding!!! Not from GH, slin, or IGF.

Cage
You may be correct. Although I can't accept this as a fact. I think most likely a combined effect of IGF1 and large quantities of food. Again though, just my opinion.
Curious to HGH and Insulin raising IGF-1. Right now I pin HGH pre cardio and again pre workout. I use slin pre and post workout. Would my HGH be better placed pre and post workout for optimal IGF-1 levels?
What I do when using both is take my insulin 30-45 minutes after my GH dose. And plan accordingly. As there is no established optimal timing for GH dosing, while there is very established timing of insulin.

--
Again, all the above responses are only my opinion and what I tell my own people based on what I've learned through literature and/or observed in myself. But individuals vary greatly from one person to the next with no "one size fits all" scenerio. But I believe we have enough information to establish a good starting point.
 
There seems to be two approaches. First, what I call the crosshairs approach which is to fine tune everything to the smallest quantities possible while still producing adequate growth for your goals. Much time is spent towards fine-tuning doses. Over 50, I find myself in this camp most often these days.

The second more common approach, which I and many others' have used and still use I call the shotgun approach. Which is to just blast a boatload of everything. It works and works well. And if you're a competitor working towards Professional Muscle or Powerlifting, is necessary. This can be done with a boatload of GH which raises IGF levels, or GH and slin, or all three combined.

Neither camp is right or wrong. Just different.
 
So what I got from what was supposed to be Mike Arnold’s updated protocol was insulin 45 minutes pre workout and GH 20 minutes post workout. Any idea for the reasoning behind this and why he wouldn’t have you do it before your insulin shot?
 
So what I got from what was supposed to be Mike Arnold’s updated protocol was insulin 45 minutes pre workout and GH 20 minutes post workout. Any idea for the reasoning behind this and why he wouldn’t have you do it before your insulin shot?
It might help to know which type of insulin. But at such a close interval (less than 2 hours), the difference would likely be negligible in either method. Possibly insulin still peaking around the time the GH is introduced? I can only hazard a guess.

But he's a smart cat, I'm sure he has sound logic behind his reasoning. Notwithstanding that I've had my disagreements with some of his advice in the past, I wouldn't mind knowing that information myself. I've used his store in the past, more than happy to give his dosing protocols a look.

Very well may be useful information to all of us. I'm not saying my protocol is the best one. Just another one of a whole galaxy of protocols.
 
How long does lantus spike igf? My understanding is that it increases it greater than log or r, but is this just for the duration of lantus or is it several days. Just curious what the ideal dosing frequency would be (given fasted by levels are in check) to maximize igf
 
This is what I got from another thread.

Latest mike Arnold protocol
45 minutespre-workout: 15 IU Humulin R.

20 minutes pre-workout: 50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 20 grams Glycerol monostearate. 3 gramsLeucine. 5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate. 2 grams Beta alanine. 3 grams Taurine. 500 mg Potassium. 1 gram Vitamin C.

10 minutes pre-workout: 100-300 mcg DES IGF-1.

60 minutes after 1stshake: 50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 3 gramsLeucine. 5 grams Micronized creatine. 2 grams Beta alanine. 3 grams Taurine.

Immediately post-workout: 500mcg PEG-MGF.

20 minutes post-workout: 10 IU GH.

60 minutes after 2ndshake (the workout will likely be finished bynow): 50grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 3 grams Leucine.
**********
I will not be runnning the igf or peg.
Plan is 10iu Humalin R since this is my first run with slin. From what I have read there is benefit to larger pulses of HGH less frequently so I was planning 10iu 3x per week. Just conflicted on pre or post workout. I’m not convinced on cyclic dextrin being that necessary/amazing so I will be using a different carb powder. I’ve seen others do the same with reported decent results.
 
How long does lantus spike igf? My understanding is that it increases it greater than log or r, but is this just for the duration of lantus or is it several days. Just curious what the ideal dosing frequency would be (given fasted by levels are in check) to maximize igf
Are you diabetic or non-diabetic? Do you know what your insulin sensitivity factor is? For example (1u R) = (x mg/dL drop) in blood glucose? For me as a non-diabetic, 2 units R as a bolus (not basal) dose will drop me from 180mg/dL to 100 easy. That's your glucose correction factor (or x:1) where x is the number of mg/dL drop and 1 is a unit of R. Mine is approx 40:1 Exactly how much that is for you will require some test strips or equivalent and will vary widely based on your insulin sensitivity.

I am not a fan of Lantus. Prolonged long-term exposure to higher than normal levels of insulin is what helps cause T2DM in the first place. Therefore, in non-diabetics keeping sensitivity high and insulin normal levels during periods of non-strenuous activity is best in my opinion. And mild hyperglycemia is far more unhealthy and difficult to treat than mild hypoglycemia. People that do fasted cardio with insulin after waking amaze me. Don't know how they do it. That is pure hell for me. I never do AM cardio fasted and if my blood sugar is higher, then I might add 1 or 2 units log or R tops. Metformin does the trick just fine usually.

I know this didn't answer your question entirely so maybe a Lantus user will chime in.
 
This is what I got from another thread.

Latest mike Arnold protocol
45 minutespre-workout: 15 IU Humulin R.

20 minutes pre-workout: 50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 20 grams Glycerol monostearate. 3 gramsLeucine. 5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate. 2 grams Beta alanine. 3 grams Taurine. 500 mg Potassium. 1 gram Vitamin C.

10 minutes pre-workout: 100-300 mcg DES IGF-1.

60 minutes after 1stshake: 50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 3 gramsLeucine. 5 grams Micronized creatine. 2 grams Beta alanine. 3 grams Taurine.

Immediately post-workout: 500mcg PEG-MGF.

20 minutes post-workout: 10 IU GH.

60 minutes after 2ndshake (the workout will likely be finished bynow): 50grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 3 grams Leucine.
**********
I will not be runnning the igf or peg.
Plan is 10iu Humalin R since this is my first run with slin. From what I have read there is benefit to larger pulses of HGH less frequently so I was planning 10iu 3x per week. Just conflicted on pre or post workout. I’m not convinced on cyclic dextrin being that necessary/amazing so I will be using a different carb powder. I’ve seen others do the same with reported decent results.
Oof... that's ugly. I would need to see the reasoning behind most of that. That almost what I do in reverse order.
 

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