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GH, slin, and IGF dosing

@Waylanderxx posted his results from this protocol and they were phenomenal. Maybe he has some insight.
I like the pre and intra nutritional factors but prefer a real food post-workout meal (usually chicken breast or thighs and potatoes or rice) until I can't eat anymore. And eating all those fast digesting carbs after the postworkout LR3 I am lit up! 15 units log is waaaay too much for me. Maybe because of my daily MET and BERB. I don't use the DES IGF-1 and do the GH before the slin or simultaneously if I have to.

But if his results are there, everything I just said is moot. LOL! (at least from him)

Results speak louder than any style or protocol.
 
It's on the way, IMO. Give it a few more years.
It's been about 20 years of experimentation, long enough to see what it can do. Increlex, a pharma compound so you know what you're getting, was apparently also mostly a disappointment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most pros do not consider IGF to be an essential compound, unlike GH and insulin. I'm not saying it does nothing but evidently it doesn't do much. Even 20 years ago I asked what the approximately 100mcg dosage of LR3 was based on and I still haven't gotten an answer. Maybe 10mg would be more appropriate? Who knows?
Of course there are isolated success stories. About 25 years ago a friend of mine got ahold of one single mg of receptor grade LR3 from a scientist at a university. He said he put on about 30lbs of pure muscle from it. I asked how he knew the gains were from the IGF and not the insulin he was using for the first time. He was stumped, admitted he couldn't be sure. He was an advanced bb about 330lbs lean off season (tall). But he must not have been so convinced really because he made no effort to get a hold of some more.

What kind of gains have you seen from it? And can you be reasonably sure the gains weren't at least partly due to something else?
 
My personal favorite for growing is taking Novolin-R with HGH about 10-15 minutes before training , taking both IM helps speed up the onset and clearance times so if I train at 4:00 by 9:00 it's out of my system and I don't have to worry about going hypo while sleeping. In this 5hr window you are taxing the muscle and pumping it full of nutrients as well. If you are able to take higher dose of HGH (8iu+) then I'd split it half pre workout and half before bed.

For contest prep I'd do 2iu before fasted cardio and wait as long as possible to eat breakfast , then 2iu before training then another 2iu before bed with 1000mg Metformin SR with breakfast then after last meal.

I haven't used IGF-1 anything is years because I was getting weak of fake shit probably 75% of the time so I'd rather spend that money on more HGH. When I did get good IGF it felt awesome and I think it would make a great addition to a contest prep.

After I'm cleared to train again I might try the IGF-1-LR3 from Mike Arnold along with a slight increase in HGH and test to help try to refill the muscles after being sedentary for 5+ months

This is just what has worked for me and few guys I've trained with.
 
My personal favorite for growing is taking Novolin-R with HGH about 10-15 minutes before training , taking both IM helps speed up the onset and clearance times so if I train at 4:00 by 9:00 it's out of my system and I don't have to worry about going hypo while sleeping. In this 5hr window you are taxing the muscle and pumping it full of nutrients as well. If you are able to take higher dose of HGH (8iu+) then I'd split it half pre workout and half before bed.

For contest prep I'd do 2iu before fasted cardio and wait as long as possible to eat breakfast , then 2iu before training then another 2iu before bed with 1000mg Metformin SR with breakfast then after last meal.

I haven't used IGF-1 anything is years because I was getting weak of fake shit probably 75% of the time so I'd rather spend that money on more HGH. When I did get good IGF it felt awesome and I think it would make a great addition to a contest prep.

After I'm cleared to train again I might try the IGF-1-LR3 from Mike Arnold along with a slight increase in HGH and test to help try to refill the muscles after being sedentary for 5+ months

This is just what has worked for me and few guys I've trained with.
I don't need IGF right now because I have a load of excellent GH. It gives me a huge IGF boost that I can feel. I love the stuff. If I do 2-4iu twice a day, I'm sky high. The bloodwork Pesty did showed massive GH and IGF levels from a single vial. And the pharma Omnis I have by Sandoz are also crazy good. Combined with Met, insulin, T, and TrenA 50mg MWF, I think I could grow from the air that I breathe.
 
It's been about 20 years of experimentation, long enough to see what it can do. Increlex, a pharma compound so you know what you're getting, was apparently also mostly a disappointment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most pros do not consider IGF to be an essential compound, unlike GH and insulin. I'm not saying it does nothing but evidently it doesn't do much. Even 20 years ago I asked what the approximately 100mcg dosage of LR3 was based on and I still haven't gotten an answer. Maybe 10mg would be more appropriate? Who knows?
Of course there are isolated success stories. About 25 years ago a friend of mine got ahold of one single mg of receptor grade LR3 from a scientist at a university. He said he put on about 30lbs of pure muscle from it. I asked how he knew the gains were from the IGF and not the insulin he was using for the first time. He was stumped, admitted he couldn't be sure. He was an advanced bb about 330lbs lean off season (tall). But he must not have been so convinced really because he made no effort to get a hold of some more.

What kind of gains have you seen from it? And can you be reasonably sure the gains weren't at least partly due to something else?
You make all good points, let me clarify a few things:

I was specifically saying that I've seen people attribute gains to LR3. Whether they were right or wrong, I don't know. I didn't mean that I've personally had or seen massive gains from it.

I agree that it definitely had it's "hot new thing that had mixed results and sort of fizzled" phase, absolutely. But, I do think it's having a bit of a resurgence and that it definitely has it's share of fans.

Me, personally, I've run it with several clients and I do believe that it is a needle mover, but every time I've implemented it it's one of the last knobs turned in a comprehensive regimen, where every single client in question had wonderful gains, but they were also dialed in across every vector imaginable by the time LR3 showed up; so it's extremely tough to know what did what.

The only caveat is that nearly without exception everyone has noticed an increase in pumps, which means that LR3 is at least doing *something* whether it's a long-term needle mover or not.

A couple other thoughts:

- I think it's possible that LR3 may have more effectiveness with the new trend of more "minimum effective dose" type stacks, where lower GH use (say, 2-4iu/day) is common. Anecdotally, I've noticed that guys who have more IGF-1 "headroom" seem to get the most out of LR3. Guys with a higher IGF-1 seem to have quicker down regulation and more diminishing returns than guys who have low to mid-range IGF-1 serum blood levels. That makes sense intuitively but if there's something wrong with that logic I'm all ears.

- Your question about doses is very valid. I'm pretty positive that "bodybuilding" doses started based on clinical Increlex dosing, and then probably didn't move much from there, likely because A) effects are noticed at those doses and B) cost made cranking LR3 or Increlex a lot higher prohibitive. The few times I've seen people running super high doses of LR3 I don't recall very many people saying that they got significantly better results, but I don't think there's a ton of anecdotes there.
 
- Your question about doses is very valid. I'm pretty positive that "bodybuilding" doses started based on clinical Increlex dosing, and then probably didn't move much from there, likely because A) effects are noticed at those doses and B) cost made cranking LR3 or Increlex a lot higher prohibitive. The few times I've seen people running super high doses of LR3 I don't recall very many people saying that they got significantly better results, but I don't think there's a ton of anecdotes there.
Increlex starting dose is 40 to 80mcg per kg in kids (say 40mcg per pound). But what a corresponding LR3 dose would be I have no idea really. So say 8800mcg of Increlex for a 220lbs bodybuilder. If it scales like that for bodybuilding, again I have no idea. That supposed Dallas McCarver cycle had 10-15mg of Increlex on training days. But the LR3 dosage did seem kind of arbitrary when it came out. I think the receptor grade LR3 was sold in 1mg vials IIRC (?) but that wasn't for use in humans, it was lab experiment material. Like I said, Palumbo said you couldn't use any more than 10mcg per day or you would immediately be desensitized, but I think he pulled that figure out of his ass lol.

I don't know if anyone tried 10 or more mg of LR3 per day... maybe it would be more effective, no idea. But then, I think it would be like GH in that it wouldn't immediately build a ton of muscle protein anyway, if the scale moved quickly it would be water.
 
Remember, the thread is about the synergy and interplay between 3 peptides. I didn't talk about GH and insulin dosing as much in the title post because we've beaten those horses to death over the years. IGF is just one of that trio of peptides GH/slin/IGF1. I highly doubt you'll find a higher level/ranked competing BBer out there that has never tried IGF-1. Could be, but I doubt it.

Consider how many times we've discussed various AAS effect on IGF-1 whether increasing or decreasing IGF-1 levels and how little we've discussed MGF modulation.

In any case, keeping in mind the extremely short half-life of exogenous IGF-1, we have a 30kg child (roughly 70lbs) taking approx 2mg up to twice a day as a starting dose. There are no dosage instructions for adults because it is only indicated for children 2-17yrs of age with growth abnormalities.

Also, higher IGF-1 concentrations are observed from even just dairy consumption and thus higher risk of cancer, mostly breast, prostate, and colon cancers in adults. This is a good factoid to remember when considering why IGF has never been (and likely never will) be approved for anything other than already prognosis negative adults (terminally diseased).

Increlex starting dose is 40 to 80mcg per kg in kids (say 40mcg per pound). But what a corresponding LR3 dose would be I have no idea really. So say 8800mcg of Increlex for a 220lbs bodybuilder. If it scales like that for bodybuilding, again I have no idea. That supposed Dallas McCarver cycle had 10-15mg of Increlex on training days. But the LR3 dosage did seem kind of arbitrary when it came out. I think the receptor grade LR3 was sold in 1mg vials IIRC (?) but that wasn't for use in humans, it was lab experiment material. Like I said, Palumbo said you couldn't use any more than 10mcg per day or you would immediately be desensitized, but I think he pulled that figure out of his ass lol.

I don't know if anyone tried 10 or more mg of LR3 per day... maybe it would be more effective, no idea. But then, I think it would be like GH in that it wouldn't immediately build a ton of muscle protein anyway, if the scale moved quickly it would be water.
It's an interesting thought experiment.

With a normal serum IGF-1 range of 90-360ng/mL in a 200lb adult between the ages of 20-30yrs we can weakly extrapolate assuming 6,000 ml of blood in a 200lb adult (6 liters) and at 360ng/mL high end (0.36mcg/mL) will put us at approx 2mg of total serum IGF-1 at any given time in a 200lb adult aged 20-30yrs (which wouldn't include that found in tissues).

This would infer that it would take 2-4mg IV (not IM or subQ) to merely double serum IGF-1 levels.

I've had my GH levels tested but never IGF. So maybe someone who has had theirs tested could weigh in here with a number they saw through blood testing.

edit: consider also that we originally tested the quality of rhGH samples through bloodwork by testing IGF levels rather than serum GH levels so GH and IGF are obviously seen as closely related

 
Last edited:
Can you load insulin and hgh in the same syringe?
Whether it's a good idea or not, I've done it with no issues. I've read where some guys won't mix their HGH in the same slin pin with any other peptide, but I've done it with slin, HCG, IGF and MT2. I'm curious of anyone has any information as to why you shouldn't.
 
Whether it's a good idea or not, I've done it with no issues. I've read where some guys won't mix their HGH in the same slin pin with any other peptide, but I've done it with slin, HCG, IGF and MT2. I'm curious of anyone has any information as to why you shouldn't.
I've put B12, Synthetine, GH, and slin in a single syringe in the past. I don't believe it degraded the effectiveness of any one of them.
 
Remember, the thread is about the synergy and interplay between 3 peptides. I didn't talk about GH and insulin dosing as much in the title post because we've beaten those horses to death over the years. IGF is just one of that trio of peptides GH/slin/IGF1. I highly doubt you'll find a higher level/ranked competing BBer out there that has never tried IGF-1. Could be, but I doubt it.

Consider how many times we've discussed various AAS effect on IGF-1 whether increasing or decreasing IGF-1 levels and how little we've discussed MGF modulation.

In any case, keeping in mind the extremely short half-life of exogenous IGF-1, we have a 30kg child (roughly 70lbs) taking approx 2mg up to twice a day as a starting dose. There are no dosage instructions for adults because it is only indicated for children 2-17yrs of age with growth abnormalities.

Also, higher IGF-1 concentrations are observed from even just dairy consumption and thus higher risk of cancer, mostly breast, prostate, and colon cancers in adults. This is a good factoid to remember when considering why IGF has never been (and likely never will) be approved for anything other than already prognosis negative adults (terminally diseased).

I may have missed it... But isn't there a big difference between IGF produced in the lived and IGF produced in the actual muscle? Isn't that why GH isn't really a "muscle builder"?

Sorry if this is obvious, I only know the basics of GH and IGF.
 
I may have missed it... But isn't there a big difference between IGF produced in the lived and IGF produced in the actual muscle? Isn't that why GH isn't really a "muscle builder"?

Sorry if this is obvious, I only know the basics of GH and IGF.
There is only one genetically expressed 70-amino acid IGF-1 and although exists in several isoforms, as to what "form" of IGF is produced in skeletal muscle is unknown to me. Only that there are several binding proteins. GH comes from the pituitary (anterior) which stimulates IGF-1 production by the liver.

Are you saying that skeletal muscle itself produces IGF-1?
 
There is only one genetically expressed 70-amino acid IGF-1 and although exists in several isoforms, as to what "form" of IGF is produced in skeletal muscle is unknown to me. Only that there are several binding proteins. GH comes from the pituitary (anterior) which stimulates IGF-1 production by the liver.

Are you saying that skeletal muscle itself produces IGF-1?
Do you have any more info on the mike arnold protocol?

I do the same thing you do;

GH pre-workout
Humalog 20-30 min later still pre-wo
Maybe another humalog shot post wo.

Should I do this in reverse order? I always thought slin gives the GH the igf-1 peak.
 
Used to be a good article floating around by DatBTrue about HGH, GH, Insulin use dosages and timing but I can't seem to find the particular one I'm talking about anywhere.
 
Used to be a good article floating around by DatBTrue about HGH, GH, Insulin use dosages and timing but I can't seem to find the particular one I'm talking about anywhere.
I wish we had pics of Dat. Was he a mass monster or a skinny nerd, we’ll never know
 

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