Help with PEDs for grappling

[Black Beard]

Most hypertrophy comes from myofibrillar growth, with mass being aided by sarcoplasmic fluid retention that can be exaggerated by drugs. That’s why when users stop their cycle, cell volumization decreases much more than a natty who takes a few weeks off. The number of reps and the level of intensity will bias certain fiber types. Even different body parts have different functions which dictate the distribution of fiber types (biceps vs hamstrings).

Explosivity

Yeah, the AAS really boost the nitrogen /etc in the muscle. We see a lot of big or huge guys in the gym that are very weak for their size. High volume training+AAS+GH really exaggerate that balloon affect of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

 

[NEMSZ]

None of the guys in this area are using Halotestin.

You don’t grapple angry.

The older guys definitely like GH, but not even close to bodybuilding doses.

I’m fairly certain 80% of opinions are made up on this board.

Yea I don’t know anyone using that either but have heard through certain avenues guys in MMA experimenting with it…

But it’s true, you don’t want to be angry, but you do want to be strong and explosive so maybe they think it helps in that regard?? I’ve never used it..

I love the GH myself and I’m no where near old lol but the high doses of GH I was told about were specifically for injuries and certain protocols in that regard..

By the way, that vid you posted, you look great man, you move and flow like a lightweight, pretty dope to see..

Have you competed in BJJ at all??

 

[KillerStack]

As far as I know, the extent of so called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy has never been quantified. It's a theory. It's used to sell routines and supps but it's just an assumption that that is responsible for size from some type of routine.

Exactly, the way i understand it is going for lower reps/explosive = more CNS adaptation and a higher ratio of myofibrillary to sarcoplasmic muscular hypertrophy = more strength / less weight = Better pound for pound performance. Sarcoplasm being more fluid/nitrogen/glycogen increase versus myofibrillar ; dense, hard muscle.

Interestingly they say high rep training is actually much "harder" on the CNS. That high rep training can be much harder to recover from for that reason. They cite a bunch of reasearch, like that Beardsley fella. I don't know if the CNS is the reason but an all out 20 rep squat is much more taxing than say a 3 rep max. Most have assumed low rep maxing out is the reason for why it feels so taxing but the reason seems to be something else.

 

[KillerStack]

Yea I don’t know anyone using that either but have heard through certain avenues guys in MMA experimenting with it…

But it’s true, you don’t want to be angry, but you do want to be strong and explosive so maybe they think it helps in that regard?? I’ve never used it..

I love the GH myself and I’m no where near old lol but the high doses of GH I was told about were specifically for injuries and certain protocols in that regard..

By the way, that vid you posted, you look great man, you move and flow like a lightweight, pretty dope to see..

Have you competed in BJJ at all??

I always read "Mike Tyson used Cheque Drops when he bit Holyfield's ear." Read it many times on this forum. I bet this is based on nothing really.

 

[goback2013]

I always read "Mike Tyson used Cheque Drops when he bit Holyfield's ear." Read it many times on this forum. I bet this is based on nothing really.

ive been saying this for a while now... the whole cheque-drop/halo thing is bro-lore.. people just making up shit

 

[Big Dave Smith]

As far as I know, the extent of so called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy has never been quantified. It's a theory. It's used to sell routines and supps but it's just an assumption that that is responsible for size from some type of routine.



Interestingly they say high rep training is actually much "harder" on the CNS. That high rep training can be much harder to recover from for that reason. They cite a bunch of reasearch, like that Beardsley fella. I don't know if the CNS is the reason but an all out 20 rep squat is much more taxing than say a 3 rep max. Most have assumed low rep maxing out is the reason for why it feels so taxing but the reason seems to be something else.

It would depend more on the context.

Systemic fatigue would be highest in a 20 rep squat.

Systemic fatigue increases when more of your body is needed to stabilize the resistance profile of the exercise. As you fatigue and gas out, you have to put more effort on stabilizing your body to satisfy the resistance profile.

Lower repetitions would not tax you the same.

 

[KillerStack]

Here's an article on CNS fatigue:

"#2. How does CNS fatigue differ between rep ranges?

Contrary to popular belief, CNS fatigue during a strength training workout is higher when lifting light loads to failure, compared to when performing conventional strength training with heavy loads. This has been observed in several studies, and across a range of different rep ranges. Interestingly, the amount of CNS fatigue seems to be substantially increased when moving from moderately-light loads (45% of maximum force) to light loads (30% of maximum force).
Additionally, it is worth noting that CNS fatigue is still greater with even lighter loads (20% of maximum force), suggesting that the proportional contribution of CNS fatigue to overall fatigue increases progressively with the number of reps that are required to reach task failure"

https://www.patreon.com/posts/cns-fatigue-45390975

 

[BigNJ]

MMA people don't use Halotestin? Either you are clueless or just plain CLUELESS lol
Halo IS the fuckin drug used in MMA the most.

Every person I know in MMA uses Halo. You want aggressive and explosive? There's your answer smart guy.

GH for what again? Recovery? Recovery from what? Workouts as in short term? Or long term?

Please please explain to me how GH works and what it does. Then after you figure that shit out, please explain how GH is used for recovery.

Lol I would rather use insulin than GH for recovery after training.

First you need to define "Recovery" then after you figure this out Mr. Nemz tell me exactly how it works to help you recover.

You say young people recover better or faster or this abd that than older people? Of course they do and it has nothing to do with growth hormone.

It's a phenomenon called aging.

You want to recover from your 5 hour workout sweet pie? How about rest,food and sleep ? perhaps a nice massage and a blow job.

 

[Black Beard]

MMA people don't use Halotestin? Either you are clueless or just plain CLUELESS lol
Halo IS the fuckin drug used in MMA the most.

Every person I know in MMA uses Halo. You want aggressive and explosive? There's your answer smart guy.

GH for what again? Recovery? Recovery from what? Workouts as in short term? Or long term?

Please please explain to me how GH works and what it does. Then after you figure that shit out, please explain how GH is used for recovery.

Lol I would rather use insulin than GH for recovery after training.

First you need to define "Recovery" then after you figure this out Mr. Nemz tell me exactly how it works to help you recover.

You say young people recover better or faster or this abd that than older people? Of course they do and it has nothing to do with growth hormone.

It's a phenomenon called aging.

You want to recover from your 5 hour workout sweet pie? How about rest,food and sleep ? perhaps a nice massage and a blow job.

Good MMA isn't about "being aggressive". That's non-sense. Look at Aldo vs Mcgregor or O Malley vs Sterling.


Most people who train MMA and combat sports suck at it, so that doesnt mean anything that every guy you know "takes halo" with all due respect.


Only normies tend to think fighters/combat athletes are aggressive, mean, and scary people. You don't go into a fight or match and just "rage out". You will and often do get embarrassed when you enter the cage, mats, or ring like that.


Fun fact: MMA fighters have a high frequency of one or two copies of COMT val gene which lowers dopamine/adrenaline levels, this generally promotes less aggression/more calmness. This is called the "warrior" gene.


How does HGH help recovery? Why do you think older guys bust their shit and cant recover as effectively as young guys? It must be their high insulin levels

Its the HGH/IGF-1. (as well as less wear and tear from age, but HGH/IGF-1 help prevent wear and tear as well as boos recovery) You can look at tons of scientific literature and anecdotes from real athletes.


Hell, why did BALCO hook up all those olympic athletes with HGH as proven by all the evidence in the court case? (Marion Jones the sprinter was taking 4-5 IU pharma grade IM to the quad three times per week at bedtime). Why didn't they just give them insulin and cheque drops

 

[NEMSZ]

MMA people don't use Halotestin? Either you are clueless or just plain CLUELESS lol
Halo IS the fuckin drug used in MMA the most.

Every person I know in MMA uses Halo. You want aggressive and explosive? There's your answer smart guy.

GH for what again? Recovery? Recovery from what? Workouts as in short term? Or long term?

Please please explain to me how GH works and what it does. Then after you figure that shit out, please explain how GH is used for recovery.

Lol I would rather use insulin than GH for recovery after training.

First you need to define "Recovery" then after you figure this out Mr. Nemz tell me exactly how it works to help you recover.

You say young people recover better or faster or this abd that than older people? Of course they do and it has nothing to do with growth hormone.

It's a phenomenon called aging.

You want to recover from your 5 hour workout sweet pie? How about rest,food and sleep ? perhaps a nice massage and a blow job.

Tell me you’ve got zero experience in a combat sport without telling me you’ve got zero experience in a combat sport…

And here you go, nice little gem for you… Google is a thing.. Tons of sources, studies and articles to choose from.. Have fun

 

[Black Beard]

Tell me you’ve got zero experience in a combat sport without telling me you’ve got zero experience in a combat sport…

And here you go, nice little gem for you… Google is a thing.. Tons of sources, studies and articles to choose from.. Have fun

Tons of anecdotes, tons of scientific literature. If you look at syndromes/diseases with HGH/IGF-1 deficiencies you will see the consequences and benefits of HGH deficiency and replacement.


Vigor (AKA energy/CNS recovery) and body composition are the two big ones. They suffer from lower muscle mass, higher body fat, less energy, more depression just for starters.


The "vigor and resilience of youth" is highly correlated with HGH/IGF-1 activity in the body, that's a scientific fact. We see athletes in their prime in their 30s and competing at high levels even close to their 50's nowadays (soccer, boxing, MMA, etc) . That was unheard of a few decades ago.

 

[thethinker48]

Most very good grapplers I've seen just love training, and do that constantly (hence their skill). They gain internal reward from the actual act of grappling

And they have terrible diets, and thin athletic physiques lol...even the genetically gifted wrestlers or D1 athletes are clueless

There are maybe 6.5 guys who understand pharmacology and good application of things at a higher level in BJJ...

I would say changing your training intensity and style while grappling will probably do more to help your recovery than actual compounds. You have to back off 100% rolls and intensity on the mats, and find your own personal best ground for recovery, especially when combining it with hard lifting

The size and strength is always there if you need it for comp or hard rolls...best example @Big Dave Smith

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Most very good grapplers I've seen just love training, and do that constantly (hence their skill). They gain internal reward from the actual act of grappling

And they have terrible diets, and thin athletic physiques lol...even the genetically gifted wrestlers or D1 athletes are clueless

There are maybe 6.5 guys who understand pharmacology and good application of things at a higher level in BJJ...

I would say changing your training intensity and style while grappling will probably do more to help your recovery than actual compounds. You have to back off 100% rolls and intensity on the mats, and find your own personal best ground for recovery, especially when combining it with hard lifting

The size and strength is always there if you need it for comp or hard rolls...best example @Big Dave Smith

This is one of my occasional training partners. He is the result of doctor prescribed TRT only. That’s it. Lifetime. No GH. No Anabolics. I know this for a fact (due to his life circumstances).

The level of drugs assumed to be in sports is grossly over exaggerated, and the drugs assumed to be needed for anything are overestimated.

 

[thethinker48]

This is one of my occasional training partners. He is the result of doctor prescribed TRT only. That’s it. Lifetime. No GH. No Anabolics. I know this for a fact (due to his life circumstances).

The level of drugs assumed to be in sports is grossly over exaggerated, and the drugs assumed to be needed for anything are overestimated.

Not surprised

There's a lot of guys with decent genetics guys on mats

People don't understand how much drugs would hinder a grappler/fighters vs helping them. Lower back pumps, and forearm cramps from loading orals, and higher doses will serve zero help

The performance enhancement benefits of testosterone are mostly achieved through just being in the upper end of the reference range

 

[KillerStack]

Steroids help recovery in a way but there's a curious phenomenon where the introduction of steroids in a weightlifter automatically reduces their training volume as well as frequency. This is actually even universal almost from my observation. Dave Tate is the only other person I've seen mention this. It's counterintuitive but "real." I'd like to hear if MMA guys starting steroids noticed they could suddenly do more volume and higher frequency.

I'm surprised someone would say GH doesn't enhance recovery. Regeneration of tissues is recovery right? It does lots of things associated with recovering, like improving sleep. I don't know if this is mostly anecdotal or if exo GH has been shown to improve sleep parameters but it's mentioned often.

 

[Dezzy]

This is one of my occasional training partners. He is the result of doctor prescribed TRT only. That’s it. Lifetime. No GH. No Anabolics. I know this for a fact (due to his life circumstances).

The level of drugs assumed to be in sports is grossly over exaggerated, and the drugs assumed to be needed for anything are overestimated.

Beginner BJJ, kickboxing, some MMA. I've experimented and you guys are right. A lot of drugs becomes counter productive. Nothing worse than drilling or rolling an you get excruciating back pumps, or shin splints...it's the WORST.

My experience so far:

Testosterone: 200mg or less (recovery, anabolism, all of the above)
Boldenone: felt like trash on it, sluggish and for me at the least the anxiety reputation was spot on. Felt on edge, had to get off.
Deca: 100mg-God send for inflammation and joints. Trying to stay away cuz I can't be on it and finasteride at the same time.
Ostarine/MK2866: I notice it helps the joints (similar to nandrolone not quite as effective) 10mg or less, more back pumps become a problem. Been using this instead of deca lately.
Stanozolol: Aggressive and Explosive, I haven't noticed it messing with my joints but I keep it at a low dose 25mg for a month only for tournaments
Oxandrolone: I want to like it so much, back pumps, shins...brutal. Can't do it even at 10mg (I'm prone to cramps and pumps)
Turinabol: Want to try this next.
HGH: did this before bjj, overrated didn't notice much (it was humatropin)
MK-677: 10 mg helped me sleep, don't mess with it at higher dose anymore cuz of the insulin resistance stuff.
Cardarine: didn't help me at all, grappling is anaerobic maybe that's why

I've been more interested in the ergogenic stuff lately, beta alanine, sodium bicarbonate, creatine, taurine, electrolytes, turmeric, collagen.

Honestly, a spot on diet training schedule is the key. The most important thing is staying healthy so you can stay on the mats and gain more knowledge/technique (at least for me).

The other stuff is icing on the cake (for me).

 

[Black Beard]

Beginner BJJ, kickboxing, some MMA. I've experimented and you guys are right. A lot of drugs becomes counter productive. Nothing worse than drilling or rolling an you get excruciating back pumps, or shin splints...it's the WORST.

My experience so far:

Testosterone: 200mg or less (recovery, anabolism, all of the above)
Boldenone: felt like trash on it, sluggish and for me at the least the anxiety reputation was spot on. Felt on edge, had to get off.
Deca: 100mg-God send for inflammation and joints. Trying to stay away cuz I can't be on it and finasteride at the same time.
Ostarine/MK2866: I notice it helps the joints (similar to nandrolone not quite as effective) 10mg or less, more back pumps become a problem. Been using this instead of deca lately.
Stanozolol: Aggressive and Explosive, I haven't noticed it messing with my joints but I keep it at a low dose 25mg for a month only for tournaments
Oxandrolone: I want to like it so much, back pumps, shins...brutal. Can't do it even at 10mg (I'm prone to cramps and pumps)
Turinabol: Want to try this next.
HGH: did this before bjj, overrated didn't notice much (it was humatropin)
MK-677: 10 mg helped me sleep, don't mess with it at higher dose anymore cuz of the insulin resistance stuff.
Cardarine: didn't help me at all, grappling is anaerobic maybe that's why

I've been more interested in the ergogenic stuff lately, beta alanine, sodium bicarbonate, creatine, taurine, electrolytes, turmeric, collagen.

Honestly, a spot on diet training schedule is the key. The most important thing is staying healthy so you can stay on the mats and gain more knowledge/technique (at least for me).

The other stuff is icing on the cake (for me).

The deca+fina thing is mostly broscience BS. Nandrolone is maybe about as androgenic as testosterone, more or less, however, it also has progestogen activity which is pro-hair.


The nandrolone/DHN/Finasteride thing was likely started by some guy wanting to sound smart. It's a false boogie man (in my educated opinion and experience with androgens/hormones)


I would throw that deca back in there if you feel such a powerful benefit to quality of life and performance. You will likely see no difference in hair loss, especially at 100 mg per week.

 

[DDub2]

I'm late to thread, I've rolled for 12 years starting in my late 30's, high level purple belt with all the injuries that go with it. Most of the serious older BJJ guys ran HGH or MK-677. Older guys with destroyed joints like myself run deca stacked with their TRT. 75-100mg Deca + 150mg or so of Test /wk.
Many of the high level nogi grapplers use EPO. It's as common in nogi as it is in cycling.
...That's all I have to say about that...

 

[Ashop]

If I were to design something…

Test- 200-250mg/wk
Deca- 100-150mg/wk
Primo- 200mg/wk
TB-500- 1mg ED
BPC- 500mcg 2-3x/day
GH- 3iu ED
Cardarine- 20-30mg ED

Leading into a tournament or super fight, drop the GH a week out.

The only other thing I’d consider is 10mg Anavar.

This is a good option,,,Have suggested similar to many of our clients over the years.

 

[bjjgear]

My opinion doesn’t stray too far from the above, but the additional androgens may just complicate things and have weird side effects like making you bigger than you want to be and having consequences on cardio. For MMA/BJJ I suggest, in order of effectiveness:

200-300mg test
4IU HGH
15mg Cardarine

Dial these up or down as needed.

And my personal favorite these days:

Anadrol 50mg PWO no more than 2x weekly just for the occasional ridiculous power boost