How bad are pro-hormones?

[ALLEX]

I would treat them like you would any strong oral AAS like Dbol Or anadrol.

I would treat some of them with much more care than I would treat dbol.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Don't mistake my disagreement as anger. I'm not angry! I'm perfectly capable of debating without getting angry; particularly regarding a subject of relative indifference such as this one. I just don't agree with you! I'm not even willing to say you're wrong but my position is opposite yours. I don't think it's worth the effort to get to know all these designer oral anabolics - not when there are perfectly comparable compounds already. It's just not my bread and butter. That's my opinion and not worth my time to validate it (and certainly not worth your time either I hope).
To the contrary, this is how I earn a substantial portion of my living, so I take great interest in learning about all PED's and have invested an enormous amount of time in doling so over the last 24 years.

This is particularly true when dealing with compounds which are of significant value, which includes multiple non-script AAS. Some of these drugs are very good--the best of their kind--at providing certain effects, often which cannot be duplicated with conventional AAS to the same degree. This is especially true for many individuals when it comes to maximizing muscle strength or in pre-contest BB'rs looking to achieve maximum muscle fullness.

Each compound, whether script or not, has its own unique effect profile which makes it useful under certain circumstances. In my opinion, it is ludicrous for anyone to suggest that the script AAS released 50 years ago are as good as it gets under all circumstances and for every goal, especially when NONE of them (outside of Dianabol and Turinabol) were made specifically for performance enhancement.

Everyone needs to figure out for themselves which steroids they react best to when trying to achieve certain goals. For example, I worked with an amateur Australian strongman a couple years back, who had been stuck at a certain strength level for the previous year. Up to then he had been using traditional AAS only. We started working together only 6 weeks before his upcoming competition, at which point he had already been using several of the best known traditional strength drugs for several months, yet his strength had come to a grinding halt.

At this juncture his opinion was similar to yours--that non-script, or designer steroids had little value compared to what was already available. In fact, he nearly refused to implement my recommendations, for fear of possibly losing strength in the coming weeks. Fortunately, he agreed to follow my lead, at which point I pulled him off several of the script drugs he had been using and added in a few non-traditional AAS. Fast forward 3 weeks and he had added a significant amount of strength to all of his event lifts, while simultaneously increasing his muscular endurance. His strength continued to increase the next 3 weeks and he won his comp, turning pro in the process. To this day, these drugs remain a integral part of his pre-competition steroid regimen.

Now, things won't always work out this way for everyone, as not everyone responds the same to all steroids, which is why it is so critical for each individual to come to this conclusion through personal experience. However, there is no denying that several non-script drugs provide potent effects in certain areas, often times to a greater degree than any script drug. It all just depends on how we respond as individuals.


I don't see any of these companies' GMP certifications. GMP certified or GMP "standards"?
It is very common for supplement companies to submit to GMP regulations when produced in the U.S. Peptides companies and UGL's are not subject to this because they are not regulated, legal businesses, as are designer steroid companies. GMP's are nothing more than a set of guidelines which guide the manufacturing of drugs and/or supplements. In order to adhere to GMP guidelines, the products must be produced in a GMP approved facility.

Many supplement companies will readily furnish proof of GMP certification if asked, and often times lab reports as well. Being GMP approved is nothing unusual--very common in the supplement industry.

Like I said, I feel like a heckler and I don't want to be in that role. Among the things I've already expressed (with your line-item contradictions mind you)
I am not sure what "line-item" contradiction means, so if you could clarify that, that would be great.

is that there are plenty of people here that have come and gone selling these and other members that have gotten sick on them.
It is important to first define what "getting sick" actually means. Does that mean an actual diagnosable illness, or rather, side effects such as lethargy, headache, appetite suppression, etc. If referring to the latter, all of these side effects are quite common in those who use traditional AAS as well. Many people have complained of felling horrible (i.e. "getting sick") on Anadrol over the years, as well as other previously available prescription drugs, such as Bolasterone. In fact, I have yet to see anyone complain of a side effect from any designer that has not also been experienced by those who use script drugs.

Now, there are a few designer AAS in particular which are known to cause the above mentioned side effects more commonly and to a greater degree than most script drugs. This is due to their potency (which exceeds ALL script AAS), as the stronger a steroid is, the more side effects it tends to produce in those areas. We do not know why this is, but we see this taking place among both script and non-script drugs. Bolasterone, a now discontinued script drug, was notorious for this, as was M1T, SD, M-sten, etc. Most of these drugs are also double-methylated, which improves potency, but increases toxicity.

So, there is really no difference between script and non-script drugs in terms of side effects...and if anyone has any proof that they experienced a side effect distinct from what has also been experienced in those who use script drugs, I welcome the proof. However, this proof does not exist, as both classes of drugs are well known to cause the same side effects--just to a greater or lesser degree depending on the individual drug. Of course, there are also many, many non-script AAS which are far less toxic and far more mild in terms of sides than numerous script AAS. Every steroid, no matter what it is, needs to be evaluated on case by case basis. In general, the more potent a steroid is, the more side effect prone it tends to be.

The reason the designer steroid industry has developed a reputation for selling steroids with above average toxicity is because they have. This is what happens when selling steroids with crazy potency. M1T is the best example, as it is by far the most potent mass-builder ever created and also made the most people feel like dog-shit. But you must keep in mind that these few drugs, which are entirely responsible for the opinions of people like you, represent only teeny-tiny portion of non-script drugs previously synthesized, most of which were no more toxic than script AAS, and quite a few were even less toxic. You just don't hear about the mild ones as much...and many of them have never even been sold. Naturally, supp companies looked for the most potent drugs available, which means greater toxicity and more complaints of feeling like shit.


Not to mention the former legality of them legitimized compounds that I'm certain found their way into the hands of young kids that could have repercussions on their long-term development.
True, but the same could be said of kids who use script AAS. Personally, I think all AAS should be legal, but controlled and only available for purchase by adults.



I realize the same can be said for black market items but grabbing a tub off a shelf or ordering MENT from Amazon is a little different. MENT is a little more legitimate though as it has some r&d in the area of male contraception. Still, not exactly what a developing male needs.
Ment has very, very little human research conducted on it. In fact, less is known about Ment than many of today's designers. Actually, here is a great example. Dimethazine, which is nothing more than 2 SD molecules attached together with an azine bond, was a prescription drug in both Italy and Mexico for decades, yet most here don't know that and label it as an "unsafe designer".

The reality is that Dimethazine has extensive human clinical research behind it, as do ALL prescription steroids. When this drug was researched, it was found to be safe and effective in all human studies, which is why it was approved for prescription status. Yet, how many people still complain of the above mentioned side effect when taking it? Quite a few, yet it has 100X more human research behind it than Ment, which most will readily use without complaint, while Dimethazine gets slandered as the unsafe designer.

Brother, this is what I have been trying to tell you--many of these drugs are no more dangerous than script drugs...and do have quite a bit if research behind them. Some were even prescription drugs a few decades back, but most people are unaware of the reality of these drugs. They know very little about the subject as a whole...and have been misled by idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Or, they pass off all non-script drugs as unsafe simply because of their previous experiences with a limited number of designers that demonstrate above average toxicity. When you really understand this subject, you will see that everything I have said in this thread is 100% true. Very little of what I have typed is a matter of personal opinion, but of fact, the overwhelming majority of which can be confirmed.


I believe there have been amazing advances in the areas of peptides and prostaglandins which are a whole other area of exploration and have merit. I find that more interesting but oral methylated steroids have just been beaten to death.
I agree. This is a very interesting area of research, which will most certainly bring to market plenty of new and effective drugs in the future. Yes, methylated drugs are an old class of drugs, but steroids in general are still responsible for 80%+ of all the size & strength a BB'r.strength athlete will ever gain, so are still very much relevant in today's community. However, I would agree that they are not as exciting as other areas of research.


But please, if there's going to be a point-by-point rebuttal of this post than I'll concede now and just say you're right.
Most of what was discussed here is not really open for debate anymore, nor is it a matter of opinion, but of fact--facts which can be readily confirmed through multiple sources--both scientific and anecdotal. Of course, regarding matters of opinion, we are all entitled to feel however we want. If you don't like any of these non-script drugs, that's fine. If you think they aren't worth looking at, I am fine with that too. I just wanted to clear up some of the misconceptions, which 10 years later are still out there. Honestly, although I consider this one of the very best sites for overall knowledge and it ranks up there as one of my very favorites, it is far behind many others when it comes to this particular subject.

Thanks for the discussion and civil feedback.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I would treat some of them with much more care than I would treat dbol.

Accurate post. I appreciate that you included the word "some", as it shows you realize that each drug must be evaluated individually--not written off as more toxic or dangerous simply because it is a designer (i.e. non-script).

 

[Mike Arnold]

Yes but...potency ? purity?

Yeah, that's what sucks. Whereas previously we were able to purchase a wide variety of steroids with guaranteed purity & potency levels, the UGL word will offer no such assurances.

I very much liked the fact that dozens of pharmaceutical-grade steroids were legally available for sale. Those days are gone--both in terms of legality and quality.

 

[Baseline]

Mike, i respect all the articles that you have written and know you are a very knowledgable guy but as far as "UGL's" and potency are concerned, the game has changed. I hear people throw around the term fake or underdosed to loosley these days. You do realize its not hard to get ANY real powder including Primo/Anavar and such in great quality i may add. I can tell you that its the UGL"s that become lazy, try other powder sources and quality can be inconsistant. If you know whats your halfway doing as a UGL , you can aquire great quality raw powders and produce an extremely quality product. Look, its the UGL's responsibility to figure out how to get their raws tested on a Mass Spec or HPLC to keep these sources honest. It all boils down to the source. If the UGL's to ignorant to realize that Anavar has a crystalline consistency and Winstrol has a micronized consistency then whos fault is that?


-Baseline

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike, i respect all the articles that you have written and know you are a very knowledgable guy but as far as "UGL's" and potency are concerned, the game has changed. I hear people throw around the term fake or underdosed to loosley these days. You do realize its not hard to get ANY real powder including Primo/Anavar and such in great quality i may add. I can tell you that its the UGL"s that become lazy, try other powder sources and quality can be inconsistant. If you know whats your halfway doing as a UGL , you can aquire great quality raw powders and produce an extremely quality product. Look, its the UGL's responsibility to figure out how to get their raws tested on a Mass Spec or HPLC to keep these sources honest. It all boils down to the source. If the UGL's to ignorant to realize that Anavar has a crystalline consistency and Winstrol has a micronized consistency then whos fault is that?


Baseline

I agree completely that you can find anything on the blackmarket, but the issue, at least in my mind, isn't whether or not something can be found, but the quality of products in general.

There are two primary areas of product quality we need to concern ourselves with. These are purity & potency. In terms of potency, the blackmarket is highly erratic, with products ranging from 0% to 100% potency. The less expensive to manufacture items, such as testosterone, as much more likely to be properly dosed than a drug like Anavar or Halotestin. Of course, testosterone products are srtill regularly under-dosed, as confirmed by user labwork and numerous mass spec analysis reports. I have had the privilige of viewing many of these reports via an independent mass spec tester, who has been hired to test the products of many UGL's over the last 10 years.

When it comes products such as Anavar and Halotestin, I suspect that roughly 90% of all such products on the market are either fake or significantly under-dosed. This hypothesis also coincides with the numerous mass spec reports I have viewed which pertain to these compounds. In fact, I would say the number is actually much higher, if we include all under-dosed products and not just the significantly under-dosed ones.

In the large majority of cases, products labeled as Halo contain no Halo at all and it is only very rarely that a UGL will produce a Halo product at 100% potency. Out of the dozen or so Halo products I saw tested last year, NONE contained the correct compound at the proper dosages and only a couple contained small amounts of Halo. It is likely that other steroids were mixed in with it, although I did not inquire about it, so I cannot say for sure. The same goes for Anavar--very frequently bunk or significantly under-dosed, although perhaps to a slightly lesser degree. Primo is also right up there.

Basically, the more expensive a steroid is to make, the more likley it is to be bunk, mislabeled, and/or under-dosed. Tons of products on the blackmarket are this way. William Lewellyn, renowned steroid tester and author of Anabolics has conducted many tests on a large vareity of different products and brands over the years...and the results are dissappointing more often than not.

Aside from potency, we alsos need to consider purity, especially when it comes to injectables, as injectables deliver foreign matter directly into the body, bypassing its natural self-defense mechanisms and leaving one prone to infection and/or injury. Unfortunately, very few UGL's are able to obtain pharamcy-grade raws or produce their products in GMP approved facilities, leaving them susceptible to pollution and sterility issues. In almost all cases, UGL products, if put to the test, would fail to meet the purity standards required for them to be sold by pharmncies. Most would fail horribly, as UGL's just don't possess the raws or facilities necessary to produce a pharm-grade product.

On the other hand, many designer steroid companies would purchase raws with a purity rating within the pharmaceutically acceptable range and then have them assembled at GMP approved facilities, essentially making them pharm-grade products in terms of purity & potency.

So, while I acknowledge that there are certainly UGL's that offer products at the correct potency level, the potency problem is still rampant from a general standpoint. In terms of purity, the problem is even more prevalent, as UGL's typically struggle horribly in this area. Actually, they wouldn't even know if their products suffered from purity issues, as they would have no way of testing a product's purity post-production. In order to do so, the entire contents of the vial must be analyzed, with every substance detected and measured.

Most UGL's are more concerned with making sure the right drug is in the vial and that it is sterile, rather than making sure their products achieve pharm-level purity. This is also part of the reason we see many UGL's dump so much alcohol into their oils.

In conclusion, the UGL world is a mess, but at least a portion of the drugs available are legitimate and properly dosed.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike, i respect all the articles that you have written and know you are a very knowledgable guy but as far as "UGL's" and potency are concerned, the game has changed. I hear people throw around the term fake or underdosed to loosley these days. You do realize its not hard to get ANY real powder including Primo/Anavar and such in great quality i may add. I can tell you that its the UGL"s that become lazy, try other powder sources and quality can be inconsistant. If you know whats your halfway doing as a UGL , you can aquire great quality raw powders and produce an extremely quality product. Look, its the UGL's responsibility to figure out how to get their raws tested on a Mass Spec or HPLC to keep these sources honest. It all boils down to the source. If the UGL's to ignorant to realize that Anavar has a crystalline consistency and Winstrol has a micronized consistency then whos fault is that?


-Baseline

I want to take a second to address your statement, which reads "Look, its the UGL's responsibility to figure out how to get their raws tested on a Mass Spec or HPLC to keep these sources honest. It all boils down to the source. If the UGL's to ignorant to realize that Anavar has a crystalline consistency and Winstrol has a micronized consistency then whos fault is that?".

Whose fault? Both. It is the providor's fault for knowingly selling the wrong raws, and the UGL's fault for not implementing good business practices in terms of testing and product knowledge.

I agree that UGL's should get mass spec testing and have a solid understanding of the drugs they are dealing with, but my point wasn't about who is to blame or how to fix the problem. Rather, I was addressing the reality of the situation, which is that the UGL world is terribly unreliable, regardless of whose fault it is.

Oh, and believe me, there are plenty of UGL's that knowingly do wrong--sell products they know are bunk or under-dosed, and intentionally mis-label products. It happens all the time. So, while the source (i.e. raws providor) definitely plays a critical role in making sure good products come to market, the UGL has to do its part as well. Dishonesty or lack of integrity on either side is the reason the UGL world is what it is now.

 

[G.I.Bro]

I want to take a second to address your statement, which reads "Look, its the UGL's responsibility to figure out how to get their raws tested on a Mass Spec or HPLC to keep these sources honest. It all boils down to the source. If the UGL's to ignorant to realize that Anavar has a crystalline consistency and Winstrol has a micronized consistency then whos fault is that?".

Whose fault? Both. It is the providor's fault for knowingly selling the wrong raws, and the UGL's fault for not implementing good business practices in terms of testing and product knowledge.

I agree that UGL's should get mass spec testing and have a solid understanding of the drugs they are dealing with, but my point wasn't about who is to blame or how to fix the problem. Rather, I was addressing the reality of the situation, which is that the UGL world is terribly unreliable, regardless of whose fault it is.

Oh, and believe me, there are plenty of UGL's that knowingly do wrong--sell products they know are bunk or under-dosed, and intentionally mis-label products. It happens all the time. So, while the source (i.e. raws providor) definitely plays a critical role in making sure good products come to market, the UGL has to do its part as well. Dishonesty or lack of integrity on either side is the reason the UGL world is what it is now.

I agree with Mike on just about everything he says about prohormones. He just has kept updated. Many of you just fail to see that over the last few years, a lot of these orals were as strong as Adrol, cheaper, cleaner and well verified for purity (because their ass was on the line, a superdrol cross-contamination in MethylStenbolone would bring legal issues). On the other end of the spectrum, you had very mild and versatile options like hdrol or Epistane that were cheaper alternatives to Var. The result was some very unique orals that were cheap and GMP verified. The black-market UGL world is a crap shoot. The sad reality is the designer orals you get from reputable "prohormone" companies like Celtic Labs get more scrutiny than the raws used for orals and oils in a majority of the small UGL operations. Celtic hired Pat Arnold to Mass Spec a sample of the last big batch of MethylSten merely for purity sake. Not even to verify it's stricture, but purely for purity confirmation and to rule out any SD contamination at production level. They very nature and level of the quality of raws they have to pay for ensures you get a decent product. Some of the raws UGL get are a joke. Name a UGL doing that here....

Overlooking a unique compound like MethylStenbolone, a personal favorite, because it's not black market, is just silly. Adrol makes me lethargic and I can't eat well. Sten gives me equal gains with less sides. It seems many of you with strong opinions on this issue (downplaying "prohormones") simply have outdated info on what has been available to us in this grey market. Pure Oils is selling pure, GMP production level injectable Trestolone and Desoxy-T and (and now transdermals of the banned oral raws that Celtic had). The cat and mouse games will never end there are interesting options superior to UGL, and technically legal, if you're in the know.

 

[BigNJ]

I know of 2 big sources of UGLs in Canada, they both would never ever use their own products. Only human grade.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I agree with Mike on just about everything he says about prohormones. He just has kept updated. Many of you just fail to see that over the last few years, a lot of these orals were as strong as Adrol, cheaper, cleaner and well verified for purity (because their ass was on the line, a superdrol cross-contamination in MethylStenbolone would bring legal issues). On the other end of the spectrum, you had very mild and versatile options like hdrol or Epistane that were cheaper alternatives to Var. The result was some very unique orals that were cheap and GMP verified. The black-market UGL world is a crap shoot. The sad reality is the designer orals you get from reputable "prohormone" companies like Celtic Labs get more scrutiny than the raws used for orals and oils in a majority of the small UGL operations. Celtic hired Pat Arnold to Mass Spec a sample of the last big batch of MethylSten merely for purity sake. Not even to verify it's stricture, but purely for purity confirmation and to rule out any SD contamination at production level. They very nature and level of the quality of raws they have to pay for ensures you get a decent product. Some of the raws UGL get are a joke. Name a UGL doing that here....

Overlooking a unique compound like MethylStenbolone, a personal favorite, because it's not black market, is just silly. Adrol makes me lethargic and I can't eat well. Sten gives me equal gains with less sides. It seems many of you with strong opinions on this issue (downplaying "prohormones") simply have outdated info on what has been available to us in this grey market. Pure Oils is selling pure, GMP production level injectable Trestolone and Desoxy-T and (and now transdermals of the banned oral raws that Celtic had). The cat and mouse games will never end there are interesting options superior to UGL, and technically legal, if you're in the know.

Great post and right on the money.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I know of 2 big sources of UGLs in Canada, they both would never ever use their own products. Only human grade.

Unfortunately, this is probably the case with many UGL's. I have known UGL's owners who assembled their gear while taking a shit on their toilets, and while I am sure this is not common, shit like this does happen--no pun intended.

It's actually kind of sad that so many legal steroids existed on the market for so long, yet only a portion of steroid users were aware of what was actually available to them. I guess misinformation goes a long way.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I agree with Mike on just about everything he says about prohormones. He just has kept updated. Many of you just fail to see that over the last few years, a lot of these orals were as strong as Adrol, cheaper, cleaner and well verified for purity (because their ass was on the line, a superdrol cross-contamination in MethylStenbolone would bring legal issues). On the other end of the spectrum, you had very mild and versatile options like hdrol or Epistane that were cheaper alternatives to Var. The result was some very unique orals that were cheap and GMP verified. The black-market UGL world is a crap shoot. The sad reality is the designer orals you get from reputable "prohormone" companies like Celtic Labs get more scrutiny than the raws used for orals and oils in a majority of the small UGL operations. Celtic hired Pat Arnold to Mass Spec a sample of the last big batch of MethylSten merely for purity sake. Not even to verify it's stricture, but purely for purity confirmation and to rule out any SD contamination at production level. They very nature and level of the quality of raws they have to pay for ensures you get a decent product. Some of the raws UGL get are a joke. Name a UGL doing that here....

Overlooking a unique compound like MethylStenbolone, a personal favorite, because it's not black market, is just silly. Adrol makes me lethargic and I can't eat well. Sten gives me equal gains with less sides. It seems many of you with strong opinions on this issue (downplaying "prohormones") simply have outdated info on what has been available to us in this grey market. Pure Oils is selling pure, GMP production level injectable Trestolone and Desoxy-T and (and now transdermals of the banned oral raws that Celtic had). The cat and mouse games will never end there are interesting options superior to UGL, and technically legal, if you're in the know.

Bro, thanks for posting about Pure Oils testolone-I am ordering some right now--unbelievable price.

 

[Dezzy]

Yes but...potency ? purity?

That's always the million dollar question. I have heard GP's Superdrol and M1T is legit, never tried it.

 

[sammy555]

Never realised until today but it looks like super drol and all the good stuff Is still available over hear in UK. I had absolutely no idea.

 

[BI22069]

Never realised until today but it looks like super drol and all the good stuff Is still available over hear in UK. I had absolutely no idea.

yup they're still legal over there, last i heard :headbang:

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Yes but...potency ? purity?

Nobody knows. And there is no oversight whatsoever. Even now. Even less later. PH "labs" are just UGLs of a different flavor. Anyone that tells you different is lying to you. They may have passed some inspection for cleanliness or whatever but you have no idea what they do day to day. Fact. This Mike guy tells you himself that he's done 30 cycles of a dozen brands and had bad experiences (whatever THAT means) with many of them. He's a shill for the industry and even he will tell you that! So if the guy selling them to you has that kind of track record, how do you think you'll do? You know who does the oversight and the testing? The labs themselves. That is another fact. I'm sure every UGL and supplier here has stringent testing policies for purity and dosing accuracy also right? RIGHT! They can give you the paperwork too if you want to see it.

So what did the government do in the US? Just ban the substances themselves rather than police all package claims. They just bagged the whole g'damn industry. I'd love to see one of these labs produce a GMP CERTIFICATION. Not an approval, not "under GMP standards". That is also another bullshit area. Giving you a false sense of security. Fact.

These PH's are just as much a crapshoot (probably more so) than any UGL or HG product ordered. You're listening to a guy (me) that's knowledgeable and I did my time in the pharmaceutical industry. These designer steroid, grey-market, designer labs are just as much fly-by-night, buyer beware operations as any UGL.

Yes, duh, each of these designer steroids has to be evaluated individually. Every drug you take has to be individually evaluated carefully. Hell yes. Good info there Captain Obvious. I've read several of these posts and mixing truth and untruth sounds really good when you're reading this guy's stuff. His facts are NOT FACTS. They are opinions just like yours and mine and he has a financial interest in this industry. You wouldn't buy a company's stock on the word of their own investor relations would you? Hell no. Professional muscle isn't "behind in this area"!!! LOL... Professionals just know them for what they are and rarely, if ever, use them. Prohormones, designer steroids, whatever, have been discussed on this board AD NAUSEAM. And the advice of being careful in weighing your purchases has been said on this board 10,000 times.

It doesn't take 20+ years to understand what goes on with these designer steroids companies. It's obvious to anyone with even a cursory evaluation of these companies. Don't get me wrong. I know people that like some of them. I know people that hate them. Then the other 95% don't care about them one way or another. It's neither here nor there anyway because they will be even more suspicious on the black market.

That whole anecdote about the Australian powerlifter? I don't believe a word of it. A nice anecdote though. It's a good joke to tell at parties. The old "he couldn't go pro until he dosed up on over-the-couter designer steroids." LOL All this hype is just to provide an air of legitimacy to an otherwise shady industry and for decades before THG or MENT, men were achieving their goals just fine. In those days (in my days) these drugs didn't even exist and nobody cared. Then someone discovered a loophole in the law and started churning these out. But not until the realization that it could be a multimillion-dollar industry.

So to the OP, how bad are they for you? I'll say this: they certainly aren't good. How bad? Case by case - not just the product but the person using the product. That is just a simple easy-to-conclude fact of the matter. Not worth debating. You can mix facts, obvious remarks, and bullshit to sell a product. I'm not even suggesting you never use them. But whatever your goals are, OTC designer drugs aren't going to get you there any better or faster than anything else sold on this site.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Never realised until today but it looks like super drol and all the good stuff Is still available over hear in UK. I had absolutely no idea.

yup they're still legal over there, last i heard :headbang:

Exactly. The HR 4771 Designer Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2014 only affects the US market and production.

 

[G.I.Bro]

Nobody knows. And there is no oversight whatsoever. Even now. Even less later. PH "labs" are just UGLs of a different flavor. Anyone that tells you different is lying to you. They may have passed some inspection for cleanliness or whatever but you have no idea what they do day to day. Fact. This Mike guy tells you himself that he's done 30 cycles of a dozen brands and had bad experiences (whatever THAT means) with many of them. He's a shill for the industry and even he will tell you that! So if the guy selling them to you has that kind of track record, how do you think you'll do? You know who does the oversight and the testing? The labs themselves. That is another fact. I'm sure every UGL and supplier here has stringent testing policies for purity and dosing accuracy also right? RIGHT! They can give you the paperwork too if you want to see it.

So what did the government do in the US? Just ban the substances themselves rather than police all package claims. They just bagged the whole g'damn industry. I'd love to see one of these labs produce a GMP CERTIFICATION. Not an approval, not "under GMP standards". That is also another bullshit area. Giving you a false sense of security. Fact.

These PH's are just as much a crapshoot (probably more so) than any UGL or HG product ordered. You're listening to a guy (me) that's knowledgeable and I did my time in the pharmaceutical industry. These designer steroid, grey-market, designer labs are just as much fly-by-night, buyer beware operations as any UGL.

Yes, duh, each of these designer steroids has to be evaluated individually. Every drug you take has to be individually evaluated carefully. Hell yes. Good info there Captain Obvious. I've read several of these posts and mixing truth and untruth sounds really good when you're reading this guy's stuff. His facts are NOT FACTS. They are opinions just like yours and mine and he has a financial interest in this industry. You wouldn't buy a company's stock on the word of their own investor relations would you? Hell no. Professional muscle isn't "behind in this area"!!! LOL... Professionals just know them for what they are and rarely, if ever, use them. Prohormones, designer steroids, whatever, have been discussed on this board AD NAUSEAM. And the advice of being careful in weighing your purchases has been said on this board 10,000 times.

It doesn't take 20+ years to understand what goes on with these designer steroids companies. It's obvious to anyone with even a cursory evaluation of these companies. Don't get me wrong. I know people that like some of them. I know people that hate them. Then the other 95% don't care about them one way or another. It's neither here nor there anyway because they will be even more suspicious on the black market.

That whole anecdote about the Australian powerlifter? I don't believe a word of it. A nice anecdote though. It's a good joke to tell at parties. The old "he couldn't go pro until he dosed up on over-the-couter designer steroids." LOL All this hype is just to provide an air of legitimacy to an otherwise shady industry and for decades before THG or MENT, men were achieving their goals just fine. In those days (in my days) these drugs didn't even exist and nobody cared. Then someone discovered a loophole in the law and started churning these out. But not until the realization that it could be a multimillion-dollar industry.

So to the OP, how bad are they for you? I'll say this: they certainly aren't good. How bad? Case by case - not just the product but the person using the product. That is just a simple easy-to-conclude fact of the matter. Not worth debating. You can mix facts, obvious remarks, and bullshit to sell a product. I'm not even suggesting you never use them. But whatever your goals are, OTC designer drugs aren't going to get you there any better or faster than anything else sold on this site.

OTH: I actually agree with a lot of your post. I think associating a "prohormone" supplement company with a legit pharma company is misleading. You are right about about the "industry" and how its basically self policed. I do view most of these "prohormone" companies selling designer orals as basically UGL operations, but serving the legal grey market area and playing by a few more minor rules and with the VERY useful mechanism of public scrutiny and legal trouble for selling banned substances.

For example, a few TOP selling black market UGL sponsors on this forum have publicly failed basic Labmax tests (meaning the compound was not even what it was supposed to be) and have accidentally shipped out oils that were NOT what they were intended to be (verified by member blood work). It happens, its not malicious, its real, its accidental most of the time and it gets swept under the rug. They get crappy raws or get something thats not what its supposed to be and fail to test it. Its just reality of UGL world. Even top tier, large scale UGL operations with tablet presses etc. admit they do not mass spec often due to expense and just asses via a basic melt point test to properly verify material. You just have to trust a sponsors sourcing habits and connections. Most mid-level UGL do not do ANY kind of verification and you're lucky if they properly melt point test to even make sure its the RIGHT compound. Normally they just do a visual ID and see characteristics they are familiar with and then begin the cooking process. A black market UGL really has very few repercussions for using a shitty purity level tren raws or raws with contamination of other compounds.

Now, take a well known company like Celtic Labs. The man behind this company first brought Epistane to market (under IBE). This was a VERY novel and versitile compound that took some skill and synthesizing. He is responsible for the PHF branded options at Pro Hormone Forum Store, as well as Celtic Labs and Pure Oils (Purity Solutions is related but under different management). ALL of his powders get tested in a full fledged lab/GMP production facility by Pat Arnold. He even dose mass spec as was widely talked about with the last big batch of MethylSten they got. You see, they are watched much more closely than a black market UGL. They have to verify the purity and contamination free status of MethylSten or a new diol of Superdrol (Celtic Mass) because if its shown to contain Superdrol via contamination they can be in serious legal trouble. So the very nature of that industry requires them to be very picky about who is compounidng their powders, how pure they are and any potential for cross contamination in production. This is basically a non-concern for your run of the mill UGL. To me that IS A HUGE difference. I can get GMP level produced MethySten that I know is pure for $26 a bottle (4-6 weeks depending on dose). What UGL do you know of that can offer that kind of assurance on their Adrol or var? None. We all know most var is not even at 65% purity and/or is cut with other shit. A clean, 75% purity var powder on the UGL black market is fucking ASTOUNDING. You are better off to get Hdrol or Epistane or some other mild option for 1/6th the price and KNOW exactly what it is and the proper dosing. That is unless you love running winny and calling it var. These older designers have been battle tested and are now well understood (unlike some brand new compounds like the dbol or M1t "oximes" which I admit are so new nobody knows much of what to expect). Another example I pointed out is getting 50mg/ml GMP level injectable Trestolone Deconate (or Desoxy T as well) for very cheap per 10ml vial. I'd take the odds on the purity of that over most UGL compounds (even just test) any day. So I agree with you, buyer beware. Most "prohormone" companies are like UGL for the most part but you have to recognize some of the hoops they must jump through because of the more public level of scrutiny helps ensure that the powders they source and verify are usually better. There are some VERY good "prohormone" companies like Celtic. That said, they are VERY bad prohormone companies theat have failed tests left and right (Black Star). I'd put Celic labs / Pure Oils on a level of a top tier UGL or even a low end pharma production though.

The only issue I have with your post is your tone toward Mike Arnold. He is just another "online guru" but i think he has proven himself with his countless posts on slin protocol, designer orals, etc. and his posts and PMs helping people with these. He's written for several websites and blogs and is pretty well known around our little dark underworld here. He deserves a little more respect than that of just an "iron Mag labs Rep" or "shill" because I really dont think he's ever promoted their stuff in his posts clarifying things about the reality of the current legal designer steroid world. You end up coming across as the one who is "out of touch," my friend.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

OTH: I actually agree with a lot of your post. I think associating a "prohormone" supplement company with a legit pharma company is misleading. You are right about about the "industry" and how its basically self policed. I do view most of these "prohormone" companies selling designer orals as basically UGL operations, but serving the legal grey market area and playing by a few more minor rules and with the VERY useful mechanism of public scrutiny and legal trouble for selling banned substances.

For example, a few TOP selling black market UGL sponsors on this forum have publicly failed basic Labmax tests (meaning the compound was not even what it was supposed to be) and have accidentally shipped out oils that were NOT what they were intended to be (verified by member blood work). It happens, its not malicious, its real, its accidental most of the time and it gets swept under the rug. They get crappy raws or get something thats not what its supposed to be and fail to test it. Its just reality of UGL world. Even top tier, large scale UGL operations with tablet presses etc. admit they do not mass spec often due to expense and just asses via a basic melt point test to properly verify material. You just have to trust a sponsors sourcing habits and connections. Most mid-level UGL do not do ANY kind of verification and you're lucky if they properly melt point test to even make sure its the RIGHT compound. Normally they just do a visual ID and see characteristics they are familiar with and then begin the cooking process. A black market UGL really has very few repercussions for using a shitty purity level tren raws or raws with contamination of other compounds.

Now, take a well known company like Celtic Labs. The man behind this company first brought Epistane to market (under IBE). This was a VERY novel and versitile compound that took some skill and synthesizing. He is responsible for the PHF branded options at Pro Hormone Forum Store, as well as Celtic Labs and Pure Oils (Purity Solutions is related but under different management). ALL of his powders get tested in a full fledged lab/GMP production facility by Pat Arnold. He even dose mass spec as was widely talked about with the last big batch of MethylSten they got. You see, they are watched much more closely than a black market UGL. They have to verify the purity and contamination free status of MethylSten or a new diol of Superdrol (Celtic Mass) because if its shown to contain Superdrol via contamination they can be in serious legal trouble. So the very nature of that industry requires them to be very picky about who is compounidng their powders, how pure they are and any potential for cross contamination in production. This is basically a non-concern for your run of the mill UGL. To me that IS A HUGE difference. I can get GMP level produced MethySten that I know is pure for $26 a bottle (4-6 weeks depending on dose). What UGL do you know of that can offer that kind of assurance on their Adrol or var? None. We all know most var is not even at 65% purity and/or is cut with other shit. A clean, 75% purity var powder on the UGL black market is fucking ASTOUNDING. You are better off to get Hdrol or Epistane or some other mild option for 1/6th the price and KNOW exactly what it is and the proper dosing. That is unless you love running winny and calling it var. These older designers have been battle tested and are now well understood (unlike some brand new compounds like the dbol or M1t "oximes" which I admit are so new nobody knows much of what to expect). Another example I pointed out is getting 50mg/ml GMP level injectable Trestolone Deconate (or Desoxy T as well) for very cheap per 10ml vial. I'd take the odds on the purity of that over most UGL compounds (even just test) any day. So I agree with you, buyer beware. Most "prohormone" companies are like UGL for the most part but you have to recognize some of the hoops they must jump through because of the more public level of scrutiny helps ensure that the powders they source and verify are usually better. There are some VERY good "prohormone" companies like Celtic. That said, they are VERY bad prohormone companies theat have failed tests left and right (Black Star). I'd put Celic labs / Pure Oils on a level of a top tier UGL or even a low end pharma production though.

The only issue I have with your post is your tone toward Mike Arnold. He is just another "online guru" but i think he has proven himself with his countless posts on slin protocol, designer orals, etc. and his posts and PMs helping people with these. He's written for several websites and blogs and is pretty well known around our little dark underworld here. He deserves a little more respect than that of just an "iron Mag labs Rep" or "shill" because I really dont think he's ever promoted their stuff in his posts clarifying things about the reality of the current legal designer steroid world. You end up coming across as the one who is "out of touch," my friend.

Perhaps my tone is condescending, I don't know. The user Mike Arnold has contributed a lot of information and I respect that. I haven't read anything that hasn't been covered before but I've been on here a long time. I'm not out of touch with any of this. I know the inning and the score. This is his livelihood and if I had to guess, I'd say some of yours too. I've seen your posts, I've seen you get banned. It's not that important what you think of me or how I deal with another member. I don't care if he's written books on the stuff. You cannot say in one post that you've seen MANY that were bad quality prohormones (for lack of a better word) and then sell the living hell out of them with pages upon pages of shilling in other posts. This creates an underground where who is "in the know" can get the quality designer steroids. What if I told you that it seems like you're riding his jock? I know what you're saying. Some of these steroids are probably just fine and work perfectly well. I'm just getting it on the record that this is salesmanship. That's all. I'm not comparing var to epistane or some injectable. I'm not here to compare this to that. I'm here to make it clear to our members that these are being pushed and that ordering these or HG or UGL are all rolls of the dice. And if any of the underground gurus, as you put it, is promoting, selling, and profiting from the sale of prohormones, that puts extreme bias in their "info".

It's just that simple. It's not out of touch to prevent this thread from becoming one big designer steroid advertisement. It's part of the job. And I would have to do that for pros, vets, featured members, anyone. I'm not here to be the popular guy that jumps on the bandwagons. I've seen too many come and go. Remember Anthony Roberts?

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Oh, and for the record what celtic labs is doing with their line has almost nothing to do with what I'm talking about which is the here-today, gone-tomorrow, changing hands 15 times and locations kind of operation. That a whole other ball of wax.

And often, the two get mixed together.