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How far on 400-600mg of test

Steelex

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So I'm 28, been lifting on and off since my teens, but I've been very consistent the past 3.5 years. Started natty at 180-190 and worked my way up to 220. Hopped on the gear and got up to 255-260 and then dieted down to 228. Back up to 240 right now, eating big, lifting heavy and trying to gain more size.

I've ran several cycles of test at varying lengths, but mostly in the 400-600mg range. The only time I have added in other compounds was when I was dieting down because I didn't have the main anabolic (food) holding down the fort.

My mentality has always been to get the most out of the least, and I've been somewhat hesitant to add in more gear. I'm wondering if I need to add in another compound to try and take the size to another level, or just keep the test at a reasonable level and pack more mass on over a longer period of time. I know there are some folks who advocate the TRT + GH thing, but they mostly seem like people who already put on a boatload of size... Which I suspect was not on a trt dose and 2iu of GH a day.

I'm just weighing my options. I want to push it further, but I can tell that my strength and size gains are definitely getting much slower, and I'm going HARD on the food, protein and log book.
 

Bobby Light

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So I'm 28, been lifting on and off since my teens, but I've been very consistent the past 3.5 years. Started natty at 180-190 and worked my way up to 220. Hopped on the gear and got up to 255-260 and then dieted down to 228. Back up to 240 right now, eating big, lifting heavy and trying to gain more size.

I've ran several cycles of test at varying lengths, but mostly in the 400-600mg range. The only time I have added in other compounds was when I was dieting down because I didn't have the main anabolic (food) holding down the fort.

My mentality has always been to get the most out of the least, and I've been somewhat hesitant to add in more gear. I'm wondering if I need to add in another compound to try and take the size to another level, or just keep the test at a reasonable level and pack more mass on over a longer period of time. I know there are some folks who advocate the TRT + GH thing, but they mostly seem like people who already put on a boatload of size... Which I suspect was not on a trt dose and 2iu of GH a day.

I'm just weighing my options. I want to push it further, but I can tell that my strength and size gains are definitely getting much slower, and I'm going HARD on the food, protein and log book.

Seems like you've made more progress on those doses than most have or will before adding other things in. Personally I would wait on the gh and try out some other anabolic..deca or eq maybe? I think strength and size gains will slow no matter what at a certain point no matter what you're on, but you've put yourself in a good spot. Wish I would have done that when I started, I had a pretty good strength base but of course wanted to try everything as quick as I could :banghead: I'd say give deca or eq a shot for 12-16 weeks and see what happens. You can alway bump the test up too if things stall, just depends on your goals and what you're comfortable with. I believe at this point you'd get more out of either adding another compound or increasing test.
 

Steelex

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Thanks.

I don't have any delusions of being Mr Olympia or making money off this, but I would like to compete (and do well) eventually. I'm 6'2" so I know I'm going to need to carry a lot of meat on my frame to make it happen.

I see the weights that the guys who are the size I want to be are moving, and I can do the math and see that at the current rate im moving at, it's going to take me till I'm 40 to get there. To me, that isn't really a reasonable amount of time to accomplish a goal of just being a good competitor.

So yeah, that's my thought process. I'm just not taking it lightly, and I'm trying to do things even right now to minimize the health issues (cardio, cleanish diet, krill oil, citrus bergamot, tudca, NAC). I've already had a kid and my wife can't have another (nor do I want another) so I really don't give a damn about fertility issues.
 

thethinker48

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The unfortunate truth about homeostasis and muscle growth is that the dose needs to increase the larger you get if you want to put on more tissue.

Now this is highly variable, and vastly overplayed by many. A 500 mg jump isn't necessary right off the bat, small jumps, adding compounds here and there, adding GH (which can help keep the anabolics lower) is also another method.

Just looking at your numbers, You've done real well with just testosterone. Try an anabolic with it like Bobby said, add low dose GH if you can warrant it, and then slowly work up from there.

Balance the scale, and see what your DNA will allow you to do :)
 

graybass

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I've been around a long time. You sound very serious and responsible. I think it would still be conservative to bump up the test a little (600-700) add like 300-400 Deca or EQ, plus a little GH. I prefer the Deca for joint health and EQ plays havoc with my red blood count, but I'm older. Adding this small amount I think is very conservative, plus would slowly move you forward.
 

Steelex

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I've been around a long time. You sound very serious and responsible. I think it would still be conservative to bump up the test a little (600-700) add like 300-400 Deca or EQ, plus a little GH. I prefer the Deca for joint health and EQ plays havoc with my red blood count, but I'm older. Adding this small amount I think is very conservative, plus would slowly move you forward.

Thanks. I'm just trying to hold onto the reigns and do this without fucking shit up too bad. There's always just that temptation to go run just a ton of shit. So far cholesterol and blood pressure have been the only real negative sides I've had, but I'm trying to do the health supps and cardio to help that. The BP, cholesterol, and liver function are the things im monitoring real hard.
 
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Gunsmith

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A buddy of mine I'm working with competed year before last at 196 , he took a full year off to make good gains.
Started at 300mg test/wk and 2iu HGH/ed, after 8 weeks we added 100mg test and 200mg EQ per week. After another 12 weeks we added 2iu HGH/Ed

He made steady lean gains on that until he started his prep several weeks ago.

This is him before starting his prep , 5'8" 239 pounds on 400mg test , 200mg EQ per week and 4iu HGH

He had run some pretty high dose cycles before but was never this weight and this lean.

Use just enough drugs to keep growing , add in NUTRIENTS before adding drugs.
 

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malcom young

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If you believe lee priest his dosage was just a few hundred total,....
 

Steelex

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If you believe lee priest his dosage was just a few hundred total,....

Yep gotta call bullshit on that.

You can come in with "oh but he had great genetics" well newsflash anyone at the very top level has great genetics and they are not running a couple of CC's a week. That's just not what the deal is.
 

saffire

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A buddy of mine I'm working with competed year before last at 196 , he took a full year off to make good gains.
Started at 300mg test/wk and 2iu HGH/ed, after 8 weeks we added 100mg test and 200mg EQ per week. After another 12 weeks we added 2iu HGH/Ed

He made steady lean gains on that until he started his prep several weeks ago.

This is him before starting his prep , 5'8" 239 pounds on 400mg test , 200mg EQ per week and 4iu HGH

He had run some pretty high dose cycles before but was never this weight and this lean.

Use just enough drugs to keep growing , add in NUTRIENTS before adding drugs.


Solid, and with that dosages its great!
 

TheOtherOne55

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I've been around a long time. You sound very serious and responsible. I think it would still be conservative to bump up the test a little (600-700) add like 300-400 Deca or EQ, plus a little GH. I prefer the Deca for joint health and EQ plays havoc with my red blood count, but I'm older. Adding this small amount I think is very conservative, plus would slowly move you forward.

This here.

You've made great progress on just test. And I looove me some test.
But i'd experiment with something like 500mg Test + 400-600mg of Deca/EQ (whichever one you want).

Both of those are tried and true cycles and are guaranteed to put some thickness on ya. You've done it the right way though.
 

trekrider215

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The unfortunate truth about homeostasis and muscle growth is that the dose needs to increase the larger you get if you want to put on more tissue.

Now this is highly variable, and vastly overplayed by many. A 500 mg jump isn't necessary right off the bat, small jumps, adding compounds here and there, adding GH (which can help keep the anabolics lower) is also another method.

Just looking at your numbers, You've done real well with just testosterone. Try an anabolic with it like Bobby said, add low dose GH if you can warrant it, and then slowly work up from there.

Balance the scale, and see what your DNA will allow you to do :)

I don't really agree. I think time is the main factor. If what your saying is true, then the same would apply for strength. You would need larger and larger doses to continue to improve strength, and that's not the case.

I just think there are other things that can break this homeostasis and continue muscle growth other than doses. Other variables that we can continue to get better at controlling throughout time that continue growth.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you said, which could very well be the case. I have a habit of doing that. I think you could blast and cruise on a very very small amount of gear, and basically stay there and repeat that pattern and get to a very advanced physique. It's obviously going to take a lot longer.

stupid guess but i'ma say 99% of people who use AAS are not anywhere near their natural genetic potential when they start. Many of them run a few cycles and see great progress and then start increasing the doses/compounds more because they want to see this continued progress. This usually happens in a matter of a couple years or 3-5 years for a lot of guys. Then they start to realize side effects, or serious issues, and realize this blasting life isn't what they thought it was so they take a more conservative approach and start dropping doses/compounds in an attempt to not die. Given more time they can get the physique back that they had on the higher doses, BUT on much lower doses or next to nothing. And they can still continue to keep improve if things are done right.
 

Steelex

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I don't really agree. I think time is the main factor. If what your saying is true, then the same would apply for strength. You would need larger and larger doses to continue to improve strength, and that's not the case.

I just think there are other things that can break this homeostasis and continue muscle growth other than doses. Other variables that we can continue to get better at controlling throughout time that continue growth.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you said, which could very well be the case. I have a habit of doing that. I think you could blast and cruise on a very very small amount of gear, and basically stay there and repeat that pattern and get to a very advanced physique. It's obviously going to take a lot longer.

stupid guess but i'ma say 99% of people who use AAS are not anywhere near their natural genetic potential when they start. Many of them run a few cycles and see great progress and then start increasing the doses/compounds more because they want to see this continued progress. This usually happens in a matter of a couple years or 3-5 years for a lot of guys. Then they start to realize side effects, or serious issues, and realize this blasting life isn't what they thought it was so they take a more conservative approach and start dropping doses/compounds in an attempt to not die. Given more time they can get the physique back that they had on the higher doses, BUT on much lower doses or next to nothing. And they can still continue to keep improve if things are done right.

I agree that it could be done on a lower dose, given enough time.

The standpoint I'm coming from is that I'm 28 and would love to compete, but I know at my height I need a whole lot more than I have. Right now I would honestly probably hit a stage at around 210... Which is sort of pointless imo. I'm still adding weight to the bar and slowly to the scale, but I would rather it not take another 12 years, when it could be done in 4. I see food and heavy weight as my main tools here, but after going from 180 to 255, then to a leaner and stronger 240, I can see that hey, this process is definitely slowing down.

I like reading everyone's perspective on it.
 

trekrider215

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I agree that it could be done on a lower dose, given enough time.

The standpoint I'm coming from is that I'm 28 and would love to compete, but I know at my height I need a whole lot more than I have. Right now I would honestly probably hit a stage at around 210... Which is sort of pointless imo. I'm still adding weight to the bar and slowly to the scale, but I would rather it not take another 12 years, when it could be done in 4. I see food and heavy weight as my main tools here, but after going from 180 to 255, then to a leaner and stronger 240, I can see that hey, this process is definitely slowing down.

I like reading everyone's perspective on it.

brother based on what you wrote, you've been very conservative, and that's great. I wasn't really talking about you.

I would be careful with getting into Orals and Tren unless using them to prep for a show. Slightly increasing the Test and/or adding in a little bit of Deca or NPP (like 300-400mgs) can go a long way.

Also, i know a lot of people say hold off on hgh, blah blah. To be honest i wish i would have started using HGH sooner. It would have saved me a lot of gear and probably less wrecked bloodworks.

HGH just seems to make things work a whole lot better, therefore much less is needed. Everyones response to hgh is different. Some people don't get much out of it, all you can do is see for yourself. Some respond very well. If your one of the people who really notice a lot on it, it will save you from having to run some heavier cycles. 3-5ius/day seems to go a pretty long way for me.

Just some things to consider.
 

thethinker48

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I don't really agree. I think time is the main factor. If what your saying is true, then the same would apply for strength. You would need larger and larger doses to continue to improve strength, and that's not the case.

I just think there are other things that can break this homeostasis and continue muscle growth other than doses. Other variables that we can continue to get better at controlling throughout time that continue growth.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you said, which could very well be the case. I have a habit of doing that. I think you could blast and cruise on a very very small amount of gear, and basically stay there and repeat that pattern and get to a very advanced physique. It's obviously going to take a lot longer.

stupid guess but i'ma say 99% of people who use AAS are not anywhere near their natural genetic potential when they start. Many of them run a few cycles and see great progress and then start increasing the doses/compounds more because they want to see this continued progress. This usually happens in a matter of a couple years or 3-5 years for a lot of guys. Then they start to realize side effects, or serious issues, and realize this blasting life isn't what they thought it was so they take a more conservative approach and start dropping doses/compounds in an attempt to not die. Given more time they can get the physique back that they had on the higher doses, BUT on much lower doses or next to nothing. And they can still continue to keep improve if things are done right.

I agree 100% with everything you have said. Most people can cut their doses in half, and still grow; a vast majority step on the gas pedal too much especially when they start. You'll only build so much muscle at a time, and extra drugs on top only stress the body, and bring that expiry date closer for a vast majority of people.

If proper cruises are taken, most can grow for a WHILE on a few hundred mgs of testosterone and an anabolic; it's the caloric surplus that's key over the drugs themselves. However you will reach a point where more will be needed, and to be very honest, it's your DNA that will determine that just as much as your mental fortitude for consistency. And that's where you have to think to yourself; what is my risk tolerance, and am I willing to accept the consequences to these additional risks.

If we were all born with the same # of satellite cells within the muscle, our growth would be linear. But that unfortunately is not the case. The ceiling for a 115 lb mathematician and a 215 lb jacked collegiate basketball player is VERY different.

Someone who isn't genetically gifted will always fight the forces of their own body that will prevent them from getting bigger. It'll be a crawl from 200 to 206 to 211 to 218, to 221, to then no progress for months, then 224...and so onward; each time establishing a new set point for the body to adapt to, and drugs will play a role in this as the individual continues to get larger; food and assimilation of nutrients more so.

It's a progression: calories, progressive overload, drugs, better focus on recovery...A scale that people need to learn to balance.

On the topic of strength; that's more biomechanics, and nervous system than anything else. I've seen freaky natural lifters, and not so impressive juiced lifters when it came to their numbers. It's the repetition of motor neurons firing, and action potentials getting more and more efficient at performing those movements along with proper leverage that produces freaky strength athletes.

Just my 2 cents on this topic for whatever it's worth :)
 

zee-man

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This was a good discussion, thanks for asking and to those who replied.

As a fellow taller lifter I'm curious how 240 looks on a 6'2". Would you mind posting a couple pics? This isn't a callout, just data collection.
 

Steelex

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This was a good discussion, thanks for asking and to those who replied.

As a fellow taller lifter I'm curious how 240 looks on a 6'2". Would you mind posting a couple pics? This isn't a callout, just data collection.

My phone won't let me post pics here... But basically if I dieted down right now I could probably do well at a local mens physique show if I wasn't so damn broken out. But fuck that I wanna be big as fuck.
 

whitmania

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Sounds like your a hyper responder to anabolics which is a great thing IMO. Keep using low to moderate doses and continue to build quality muscle. Hard earned muscle will stay with you forever.
Easy come- easy go I like to say.
 

trekrider215

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I agree 100% with everything you have said. Most people can cut their doses in half, and still grow; a vast majority step on the gas pedal too much especially when they start. You'll only build so much muscle at a time, and extra drugs on top only stress the body, and bring that expiry date closer for a vast majority of people.

If proper cruises are taken, most can grow for a WHILE on a few hundred mgs of testosterone and an anabolic; it's the caloric surplus that's key over the drugs themselves. However you will reach a point where more will be needed, and to be very honest, it's your DNA that will determine that just as much as your mental fortitude for consistency. And that's where you have to think to yourself; what is my risk tolerance, and am I willing to accept the consequences to these additional risks.

If we were all born with the same # of satellite cells within the muscle, our growth would be linear. But that unfortunately is not the case. The ceiling for a 115 lb mathematician and a 215 lb jacked collegiate basketball player is VERY different.

Someone who isn't genetically gifted will always fight the forces of their own body that will prevent them from getting bigger. It'll be a crawl from 200 to 206 to 211 to 218, to 221, to then no progress for months, then 224...and so onward; each time establishing a new set point for the body to adapt to, and drugs will play a role in this as the individual continues to get larger; food and assimilation of nutrients more so.

It's a progression: calories, progressive overload, drugs, better focus on recovery...A scale that people need to learn to balance.

On the topic of strength; that's more biomechanics, and nervous system than anything else. I've seen freaky natural lifters, and not so impressive juiced lifters when it came to their numbers. It's the repetition of motor neurons firing, and action potentials getting more and more efficient at performing those movements along with proper leverage that produces freaky strength athletes.

Just my 2 cents on this topic for whatever it's worth :)

Very good post. I understand what you mean now. Thank you!
 

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