How far on 400-600mg of test

[heavyhitter]

I don't really agree. I think time is the main factor. If what your saying is true, then the same would apply for strength. You would need larger and larger doses to continue to improve strength, and that's not the case.

I just think there are other things that can break this homeostasis and continue muscle growth other than doses. Other variables that we can continue to get better at controlling throughout time that continue growth.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you said, which could very well be the case. I have a habit of doing that. I think you could blast and cruise on a very very small amount of gear, and basically stay there and repeat that pattern and get to a very advanced physique. It's obviously going to take a lot longer.

stupid guess but i'ma say 99% of people who use AAS are not anywhere near their natural genetic potential when they start. Many of them run a few cycles and see great progress and then start increasing the doses/compounds more because they want to see this continued progress. This usually happens in a matter of a couple years or 3-5 years for a lot of guys. Then they start to realize side effects, or serious issues, and realize this blasting life isn't what they thought it was so they take a more conservative approach and start dropping doses/compounds in an attempt to not die. Given more time they can get the physique back that they had on the higher doses, BUT on much lower doses or next to nothing. And they can still continue to keep improve if things are done right.

I both agree and disagree with this. I do agree that most people could continue to grow for awhile at lower doses if they got all the other variables right. But I don't believe muscle growth and strength work quite the same way. There are so many other factors to building strength that don't have to do with muscular size. Efficiency of movement, nueral conditioning, things like that. Increasing dose doesn't make you any better at those things....but it can and does make a difference for muscle size to a degree

 

[heavyhitter]

This was a good discussion, thanks for asking and to those who replied.

As a fellow taller lifter I'm curious how 240 looks on a 6'2". Would you mind posting a couple pics? This isn't a callout, just data collection.

My profile pic is me at 6'1'' and about 238.

 

[Steelex]

I both agree and disagree with this. I do agree that most people could continue to grow for awhile at lower doses if they got all the other variables right. But I don't believe muscle growth and strength work quite the same way. There are so many other factors to building strength that don't have to do with muscular size. Efficiency of movement, nueral conditioning, things like that. Increasing dose doesn't make you any better at those things....but it can and does make a difference for muscle size to a degree

This is all true but I think it's like sort of a moot point. When I started lifting I had little shoulders, and overhead pressed 95. Now I overhead press 245 and my shoulders are bigger. I'm pretty sure if get to OHP 315 they'll be bigger then too.

I have a pretty caveman view of the whole thing. The only thing I found that really correlates to more size on my body is more weight on the bar, and I try and eat and drug myself in a way that keeps that number moving. If I ever got drastically bigger without getting drastically stronger, I found I was drastically fatter.

I don't know another way to go about it that even makes sense. There are "big guys" who are not that strong but there are no REALLY goddamn fucking big guys who are not human fork lifts.

Look at Dallas, Ronnie, Dorian, ect... Hell on a less famous note look at Jordan Peters, dusty hanshaw, luke sandow, ect... Big af and every bit as strong.

 

[heavyhitter]

This is all true but I think it's like sort of a moot point. When I started lifting I had little shoulders, and overhead pressed 95. Now I overhead press 245 and my shoulders are bigger. I'm pretty sure if get to OHP 315 they'll be bigger then too.

I have a pretty caveman view of the whole thing. The only thing I found that really correlates to more size on my body is more weight on the bar, and I try and eat and drug myself in a way that keeps that number moving. If I ever got drastically bigger without getting drastically stronger, I found I was drastically fatter.

I don't know another way to go about it that even makes sense. There are "big guys" who are not that strong but there are no REALLY goddamn fucking big guys who are not human fork lifts.

Look at Dallas, Ronnie, Dorian, ect... Hell on a less famous note look at Jordan Peters, dusty hanshaw, luke sandow, ect... Big af and every bit as strong.

But theres also stupendously strong Olympic lifters putting up insane squat and overhead numbers who are like 5'5'' and120 pounds. Theyre not completely linear

 

[Steelex]

Yea this is true but at the end of the day if you want to build the biggest lifter possible how are you going to go about it? Olympic lifting? Pump work? Or getting stupid strong in a wide variety of rep ranges while taking in enough food and drugs to support the change in musculature?

How would you go about it???

My mentality in a nutshell is that the biggest dudes are usually strong as fuck at bodybuilding exercises, so how can I get to that point? Reverse engineer.

 

[heavyhitter]

Yea this is true but at the end of the day if you want to build the biggest lifter possible how are you going to go about it? Olympic lifting? Pump work? Or getting stupid strong in a wide variety of rep ranges while taking in enough food and drugs to support the change in musculature?

How would you go about it???

My mentality in a nutshell is that the biggest dudes are usually strong as fuck at bodybuilding exercises, so how can I get to that point? Reverse engineer.

I totally agree with this and I believe progressive overload is the key to muscular growth. But I also agree with thethinker to a degree that at some point....growth will stall and upping the drugs might be the only factor that can continue to increase it. At a certain point more food and training just wont be enough to do it without just accruing excess fat

 

[Steelex]

No I 100% agree with that or I wouldn't have started the thread. I see my own strength gains slowing down (after a few years of solid steady growth) and I'm already doing what can be done. If I'm getting in 400g of protein a day at 240, is another 50 or 100g a day gonna push me to the next level? Probably not. Neither is adding xyz vitamin or John meadows intra workout. Were talking minimal changes here.

 

[heavyhitter]

No I 100% agree with that or I wouldn't have started the thread. I see my own strength gains slowing down (after a few years of solid steady growth) and I'm already doing what can be done. If I'm getting in 400g of protein a day at 240, is another 50 or 100g a day gonna push me to the next level? Probably not. Neither is adding xyz vitamin or John meadows intra workout. Were talking minimal changes here.

Exactly.....so the only factors left here is recovery(which by this point you've probably figured out how best to optimize this for yourself) and the drugs. That said.....it doesn't need to be a drastic increase. 50-100 mgs a week might be all that's necessary to start things moving again

 

[Bobby Light]

I agree with the general sentiments of the posts above..as I mentioned I wish I didn't jump up quickly the way I did personally, however I've absolutely made progress on less gear than I had used before. There are also a variety of ways to change things as far as gear and give your body reasons to grow assuming diet and training are in place. All kinds of different combinations of drugs, more gh, more insulin, etc..its not always a mg for mg type of debate, especially when you find out what combinations work the best for you and you have everything else in place.

lets say you're on 600 test, next you can try

600 test, 300 deca, then

600 test, 300 eq, then

750 test, 300 deca or eq, 300 tren after finding which is best or

600 test, 300 deca, 300 eq

The possibilities are endless! lmao thats like 1.5-2 years of cycles depending on length..and thats not even including orals or gh or slin or any of that stuff.

It's a good position to be in, the question will be once you add those and see results will you be able to stay the course of using lower doses and not trying to blast for faster results..only time will tell lol

 

[heavyhitter]

I agree with the general sentiments of the posts above..as I mentioned I wish I didn't jump up quickly the way I did personally, however I've absolutely made progress on less gear than I had used before. There are also a variety of ways to change things as far as gear and give your body reasons to grow assuming diet and training are in place. All kinds of different combinations of drugs, more gh, more insulin, etc..its not always a mg for mg type of debate, especially when you find out what combinations work the best for you and you have everything else in place.

lets say you're on 600 test, next you can try

600 test, 300 deca, then

600 test, 300 eq, then

750 test, 300 deca or eq, 300 tren after finding which is best or

600 test, 300 deca, 300 eq

The possibilities are endless! lmao thats like 1.5-2 years of cycles depending on length..and thats not even including orals or gh or slin or any of that stuff.

It's a good position to be in, the question will be once you add those and see results will you be able to stay the course of using lower doses and not trying to blast for faster results..only time will tell lol

This is exactly my problem. I tend to be a kitchen sink kind of guy

 

[Madmax30]

stay on it for 20 weeks

 

[Millineum Man]

A buddy of mine I'm working with competed year before last at 196 , he took a full year off to make good gains.
Started at 300mg test/wk and 2iu HGH/ed, after 8 weeks we added 100mg test and 200mg EQ per week. After another 12 weeks we added 2iu HGH/Ed

He made steady lean gains on that until he started his prep several weeks ago.

This is him before starting his prep , 5'8" 239 pounds on 400mg test , 200mg EQ per week and 4iu HGH

He had run some pretty high dose cycles before but was never this weight and this lean.

Use just enough drugs to keep growing , add in NUTRIENTS before adding drugs.

This is AMAZING! Your friend looks great for using such a low dose or any dose for that matter. This would be helpful posted in the beginner section as well. Start small, focus on diet, training, and recovery. Evaluate and adjust, if necessary.

 

[Kaladryn]

I built all my mass in my early 20s on 500mg of test, 80lbs of muscle over 4 years, I never went off. The key to continuing to make gains for me personally was scaling back my training volume as I got stronger and increasing the intensity.

 

[Millineum Man]

I built all my mass in my early 20s on 500mg of test, 80lbs of muscle over 4 years, I never went off. The key to continuing to make gains for me personally was scaling back my training volume as I got stronger and increasing the intensity.

You were on 500mgs of Test a week for 4 years straight? Did you add any other anabolic besides test in your mass phase? Any health issues?

 

[Kaladryn]

You were on 500mgs of Test a week for 4 years straight? Did you add any other anabolic besides test in your mass phase? Any health issues?

No health issues, I was monitored by a doctor and bloodwork was done on a regular basis. Small amounts of deca and low dose orals were used in the last year but it was pretty light, like 20mg of dbol for 8 weeks or adding in 200mg of deca for few months, and that was only in the last year.

 

[massnup]

How much strength did you add to the big basic exercises during those 4 years?

 

[alfresco]

well . . .

I built all my mass in my early 20s on 500mg of test, 80lbs of muscle over 4 years, I never went off. The key to continuing to make gains for me personally was scaling back my training volume as I got stronger and increasing the intensity.

K,

Will not comment on what, how long and how much you used which in my opinion is not that much by
today’s standards. It is not my place, you are you. But kudos for the bloodwork (your other post).
As you mentioned you were always ‘on’ so can we safely assume all blood tests were done when you
were taking what you took. No?

And you make a really good point, one that I think is often overlooked and poorly understood by most
(not by you) and that is as you get bigger and stronger (i.e. more muscular mass) you need to scale back
your volume (the ability to recover is finite resource . . . use it wisely) and look for ways to increase the
intensity which then, in turn, requires, perhaps, an even more abbreviated ‘routine.’ Your body will
thank you down the road especially for those how dabble in different anabolics as some can have a
tendency to mask the damage to your muscle / ligaments / tendons and joints (see recent Jason-Huh
interview) only to get the bad news down the road when it is too late (my words).

 

[Kaladryn]

K,

Will not comment on what, how long and how much you used which in my opinion is not that much by
today’s standards. It is not my place, you are you. But kudos for the bloodwork (your other post).
As you mentioned you were always ‘on’ so can we safely assume all blood tests were done when you
were taking what you took. No?

And you make a really good point, one that I think is often overlooked and poorly understood by most
(not by you) and that is as you get bigger and stronger (i.e. more muscular mass) you need to scale back
your volume (the ability to recover is finite resource . . . use it wisely) and look for ways to increase the
intensity which then, in turn, requires, perhaps, an even more abbreviated ‘routine.’ Your body will
thank you down the road especially for those how dabble in different anabolics as some can have a
tendency to mask the damage to your muscle / ligaments / tendons and joints (see recent Jason-Huh
interview) only to get the bad news down the road when it is too late (my words).

Bloodwork has always been good, even when on contest prep doses, at worst I have seen slightly elevated AST/ALT and high hematocrit.

 

[Kaladryn]

How much strength did you add to the big basic exercises during those 4 years?

Squats went from about 275x5 to 545x5, bench went from 225 to 455 (I never had a good bench, bad shoulders. Deadlifts went from 405 in high school to 635. I always liked lifting heavy but I was never naturally that strong.

 

[Millineum Man]

Squats went from about 275x5 to 545x5, bench went from 225 to 455 (I never had a good bench, bad shoulders. Deadlifts went from 405 in high school to 635. I always liked lifting heavy but I was never naturally that strong.

WOW! That's a HUGE increase over a 4 year span. You doubled your squat, added 230lbs to your deadlift, and gained 80lbs of muscular bodyweight. All on a base of 500mgs of Test a week is even more spectacular. Did you experience any negative side effects over the 4 years? Did you need any AI's?