How much juice do you need to gain muscle?

[LATS]

well. i have said it numerous times.. along with many others.. MOST OF THE CYCLES I SEE POSTED SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF ME.. when i see this.. i often wonder.. where did you start? i see a guy who has done three cycles doing 1000 mgs of test, some other anabolic, maybe dbol and a few other goodies.. jeesshh.. where did ya start.. i mean.. lets say that we do a first cycle.. one should always start with the lowest amount possible that still elicites gains.. lets say he does 600mgs of test.. just test.. one should gain off this low amount if his nutrition is sound and his training avoids overtraining like the plague.. he gains some muscle and is happy.. next cycle.. what should it be? well.. if he gained off 600 of test.. maybe repeat this again.. or at the most maybe add a anabolic (deca) at 300 mgs.. personally i would proabaly stay the same until i exhausted that amount and was not making gains.. then i would check that my calories were still adequete and my training sound.. if all was exhausted i would maybe add more test..maybe..but, not before i added calories, or lower volume ect.. after that i might go to adding a anbolic or adding test.. but, where does one go from his first cycle being 600mgs total to being at 1200mgs total after three cycles?? where do we go from here?.. 1500?.. 2000? baby steps guys.. baby steps.. if a cycle is not producing gains like it should.. it will come down to nutrition and over training most of the time..
do the least amount to get gains.. do you realy believe that 1000mgs of test will give ya double the gains as 500mgs? no.. it will not.. it might double your water retention.. up your blood pressure.. but, not double your gains.. when you check over your past cycles yo will see the ones that gave you a disappointing cycle might have been one that you did not have the proper food.. upped your volume.. ect ect ..
a study done in the new england journal of medicine a few years back gave three groups 600mgs of test enth.. group one did nothing but take the test enth.. no exercise at all..group 2 took 600 test enth and lifted weights three days a week... group three took a placebo and lifted weights.... at the end of the study the group who took gear and lifted gained the most.. of course. but, the group that took gear and did no lifting gained more muscle that the group that lifted and took the placebo.. YES.. THE COUCH POTATOES GAINED MORE THAT THE LIFTERS.... why do i bring this up?.. well think about it.. if one can gain some muscle by taking gear and not lifting.. think how powerful these things can be.. now imagine taking small amounts and having a sound lifting program and better nutrition than the groups tested did.. you can gain great amounts of muscle by taking very little.. it comes down to the food and the lifting that truly makes the gear work its wonders.. create the enviroment for growth.. that can be done with little gear.. am a saying to never up your gear.. no.. what i am saying is get your nutrition in gear.. get your training down with proper recuperation and avoid all ovetraining.. if couch potatoes can gain from gear and no exercise.. imagine what a knowledgable guy with sound lifting and food intake could do.. trust me.. you wont need 1000 mgs of test.. not for long time..

 

[SFINX]

Impressed!

Very good post Lats!
I also read the study you talked about.
Your a smart guy

 

[Massive G]

Sorry to cut and run guys didn't mean to post this and not partake in it I think it can be an interesting discussion.
I know ALL the answers to what I asked for me I just wanna hear others inpus and experiences.
I'll post up some examples and more discussion hopefully by this weekend.

some great posts in this thread.
Also I'll pull up the NEJ Study from 1996 that used 600 mgs of TE on males for 3 months with no ill effects on healthy males except muscle gain.

 

[STEVO 47]

Cough, um yeah, christ ronnie doesnt even look like this...

Your right, cough there fuckin bigger.

 

[bigheinz]

You don't need anything else but the Weider training principles, Weider super protein and weight gainer #7....HMMMM

This question can not be answered, but I can tell you one thing it's sure going to be interesting!!!

Going to get my popcorn now!

You forget the ANIMAL PACK

 

[TooPowerful4u]

I could care less about all this what gear is best bs.... as far as contest prep maybe... but when it comes to growing i dont care what you say its FOOD. Some shit fell through for me and i only got some of what i planned to use, most people would probably laugh at what i used, but i ate good and grew better than ever in my life. Its the food, plain and simple.

 

[bigheinz]

Ok here is one question:

Why underground labs are making stronger as like boldenone 300, primo 200, sustanon 375, test 400, A 100, Anavar 10?

Bodenone used to be 50 mg in the old days, no test 400 around, Anavar 2.5.

Why bb'ers are bigger and heavyer than the 90's (better training techniques??? and?)

Lee haney: 222 pounds>>> Ronnie 278 pounds...others 250 to 320 pounds.

Is it becouse they have better and stronger drugs?

Do they have NITRIX? i am sure is not the reason.

I am not saying they take large dosis, i am just asking.

 

[AWN2004]

After reading a bunch of the threads on the board as of late, I thought I might give my own opinions on this matter.

I know Im going to get flamed to all hell for saying this but I kinda feel that if you are competing or in some type of sport that requires you to be competitive, using gear is pointless. I know people will argue the plastic surgery thing and various other reasons, but for me personaly, this is how I feel....I'm not judging anyone else by any means. I recently took a long break from my doctor prescribed HRT for this very reason. I didnt see competing in the near future so I felt the need to continue with what I was doing was pointless.

Now....what does it take to grow? Well thats going to vary from person to person. I think we have allready established that for the most part. But I guess what we are talking about is what it takes to grow over and beyond what your body is going to do on its own. I've allways thought about something that I never did too much about, until recently, that really answered some questions for me. Here is where I will go into detail about what I personaly found out.

Is there a book out there or is it written somewhere that gives a specific number (ng/dl) that bodybuilders or other athletes could shoot for in order to achieve maxium return or results. In other words is there a "magic number" so to speak that is going to yield lots of positive benefits with little or no bad things happening in return (sides)? Well....there isnt really. Manipulating your own hormones is pretty much "voodoo chemistry", so its pretty much impossible to gauge what a "normal" range would be. This leads me to what I did next.

I decided that since I was going to start HRT again that I would get my blood tested several times during the time I was recieving the therapy to determine where my levels where at. This is something most people should be doing anyway, however, most don't. I myself have very sensitve skin and Ive sometimes wondered if what I was doing was too much. Could it be that if I lowered the level of hormones that my skin might clear yet at the same time I would still be getting great results? The only way for sure that I would be able to prove this would be to start really low and then view the results. Since I was off everything for over a year, I figured this would be a great way to find out. So I started out with a medium low dose of testosterone (400mg) and then added a very low dose of 200mgs of primobolan. I was shooting for the safest most mild anabolic I could find. Well here is the thing. In about 5 weeks I had gone from right around 213 to 223-225 and in much better condition than before (12% to about 10.8%). At this point I figured it was time to get some blood drawn to see where I stood. What I was about to find out would blow my mind. My test came back at 1807ng/dl Holy crap! I did not think for a minute that my levels would be that high. But what was even more fascinating to me was that I was not retaining any huge amounts of fluid, my skin was crystal clear, and my BP/liver values/kidneys were doing just fine. This really cleared the air on a bunch of topics for me. Im sure most have heard that "if you just take this amount, your only replacing your own levels and not going to grow".....I now find that statement to be a complete fallacy.

The thing is that I was training very hard prior to starting the HRT so it wasnt like I went from not traing to all of a sudden boosting my body into a perfect envirnoment for growth. So the whole muscle memory thing I can throw right out the window. The whole process of really studying how my body reacted was rather facisinating. So what does all this mean? Well, I guess to answer the question that this thread posed....there is a number that worked for me and it was much lower than I expected. Its strange that more people don't start from the ground and work their way up the hormone ladder. I think people could probably start way lower than they think and get great results...but once again its all up to the person and how they react. I really do believe that you can get to a point where you run into a law of deminishing returns as someone mentioned earlier. In other words you would probably just grow the same but with less sides and better blood panels at lower doses. As everyone has mentioned, what works for one won't work for someone else. Will I win the olympia? Heck no. Will I pro? Nope. But I do feel that I can be competitve when I compete and I'm not going to have to break my bankroll or my internal organs to do so. Take what you want from this but I hope this gives insight on the subject matter. I am going to try and find the paper work and maybe I can scan it and post it up. I know people are going read this (if anybody even takes the time) and say "yeah right whatever man" or "youd have to take more to compete nationaly or whatever". Thats fine....but this is what happened to me and what worked and is currently still working. Hope this helped.

 

[Tough Old Man]

This is an extension of another thread.
How much? can anyone tell me?
What's the magic number? the holy grail of stacks? The right compounds?
What do you need to grow?
How should you cycle to minimize side effects?
What about assistance compounds used to block sides?
Is it healthy to block ALL estrogen?
Do you need GH?
Do you need IGF-1?
Do you need insulin?
T3?
Clen?
Can someone tell me how 1000 mgs of EQ is better than 500, or 2000 mgs of test is better than 1000?
What about orals? I see people recomendiong 100 mg a day Anavar cycles and 75-100 mg d-ball doses?
When did this all go astray with the high doses on the boards and in competition?
I know a lot of guys killing their health by staying on way too long and way too high doses and way too many compounds.
Not here to bash or preach I am no angel but hopefully some sensible discussion can come out and help some guys extend their time in the game.

Your question is interesting but it can go two ways. Lets say Testosterone in any dose wasn't bad on your health. Can you or anyone else prove that a gram or more of test isn't better then 500 mgs. Someone answer that.

 

[Massive G]

I'd say todays (AAS) drugs are INFERIOR to what was available before 1990.
Before the gov't took legit supply of pharmaceutical manufactured drugs, you never heard of a sterile abcess before.
Part of the damage from a cycle comes from the toxic effects of BA and BB that are way too high in oils that are added in to try and make Quality Control through crappy manufacturing practices.

A to why the labs make the "high dosed" stuff-it sells a lot better and appeals to the more is better mentality.

Tell me what new AAS compounds have been developed in the last 30 years?

There also have been tremendous advances in supplementation, diet and training over the last 30 years plus a larger gene pool that is being sampled.

Do drugs make a difference-hell yes.
Mega doses work better-sure in the short term and no one will ever convince anyone on the boards to tone it down and grow just as well if they pace themselves then go kamikazee for 2 years wrecking their endocrine system and then repeating the cycle all over again.

 

[TeamZ]

from the toxic effects of BA and BB that are way too high in oils that are added in to try and make Quality Control through crappy manufacturing practices..

no offense but look at the BB ratio of depo test by Up john 20 %

Do drugs make a difference-hell yes.
Mega doses work better-sure... in the short term.... and no one will ever convince anyone on the boards to tone it down and grow just as well if they pace themselves then go kamikazee for 2 years wrecking their endocrine system and then repeating the cycle all over again.

And there you probably have your answer short term use of high doses followed by lesser doses,is probably the best way to do it! Your also 100% right to go on huge doses for long periods is insane and I'm sure the longer an individual is on mega doses the returns start to diminish!

 

[homonunculus]

1. Bhasin, S., T. W. Storer, N. Berman, C. Callegari, B. Clevenger, J. Phillips, T. J. Bunnell, R. Tricker, A. Shirazi, and R. Casaburi. The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men [see comments]. N. Engl. J. Med. 335:1-7, 1996.

BACKGROUND: Athletes often take androgenic steroids in an attempt to increase their strength. The efficacy of these substances for this purpose is unsubstantiated, however.METHODS: We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise; testosterone with no exercise; placebo plus exercise; and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period,fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-press and squatting exercises, respectively. RESULTS: Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [+/-SE] change in triceps area,424 +/- 104 vs. -81 +/- 109 square millimeters; P < 0.05)and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607 +/- 123 vs. -131 +/- 111 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9 +/- 4 vs. -1 +/- 1 kg,P < 0.05) and squatting exercises (16 +/- 4 vs. 3 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1 +/- 0.6 kg)and muscle size (triceps area, 501 +/- 104 square millimeters;quadriceps area, 1174 +/- 91 square millimeters) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22 +/- 2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38 +/- 4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group. CONCLUSIONS: Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone,especially when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle size and strength in normal men Department of Medicine Charles R Drew University of Medicine and Science Los Angeles CA 90059 USA


-Randy

 

[b-boy]

well one thread is already locked..... so please lets keep this one going with some good intelligent conversation! im really dissapointed that heinz's thread got locked, but i totally understand why Big A did it!
i really hope some more guys like skip from IM and troponin chime in on this thread!
and thank you randy for chiming in!

 

[Massive G]

no offense but look at the BB ratio of depo test by Up john 20 %

No offense taken I am speaking of BA which is a bacteriostatic agent, and usually present at less than 1% of the total injectable volume in Depot test and other legit pharms that follow USP formulation methods.
BB can be irritating as well if taken in high amounts over long periods of time but not as bad as BA. BA shouldn't be used as a blanket to ensure cleanliness as well as enhance soluability of higher dosed compounds either but it is used in a lot of UG and BM formulations.

I am not slamming UG labs and BM we have to use what is available but again consider safety when applying these compounds.

 

[tflexxin]

This is intresting. Natural my weight is 275lbs. with about 12% bf.
HT 6' Now when I started my first cycle with test
at 500mgs a wk strength went up a bit. Upped my dose to a 1000mgs.
after a year hoping to gain more size the only thing that I got was
a bit stronger, bf went down to about 10% and that's about it.
Now I'd like to know if weight has anything to do with dosage. The strange
thing is I'm the same size when i'm on as when I am natural.
And to add I eat like a pig and I bust my ass the gym. So I am very dedicated
to the cause.

Stevo,
claims of this size must be supported with pictures. otherwise we must assume you are like many others.....come on now....man up.

 

[bigfatandugly]

I agree with you 100%, but can you elaborate on your insulin usage/dosage/timing? Thanks

sorry hella swole, but i missed your question in this earlier thread so i'll address it now, please remember this is just what works best for me...

i have used both humulin-r and humalog and have used both types of administration (sub-q and i.m).

i have tried all protocols from low carb/high insulin( 40 i.u training days)/high protien( gluconeogenisis), to the more common x amount in the am, x amount pwo, and everything in between.

what works best for me is taking my first shot one hour before i train. i use 7 i.u. of humulin-r, i.m with anywhere from 5-7 grams of carb per i.m., carbs in liquid form with no protien.

my second shot is 10 i.u of humulin-r, i.m, immediately after my workout with again 5- 7 gram of carb per i.u., carbs being rice cake and protien consisting of whey protein at 75 grams, and again followed by another meal of whey protein at 75 gram and a another carb source 1 hr. later. this is my last carb of the day, unless i start to go low.

i prefer humulin-r to humalog as i found i can control humulin better i.m than i can huma sub. q. -this is just me, but after years of on again/ off again trial and error with huma i still prefer humulin.

that i think is it. im not saying this is the only way to take it, or the right way, just what seems to be working best for me at this time.

hope this helps hella.

all the best.

BFU

 

[PHIL HERNON]

OK

Ok here is one question:

Why underground labs are making stronger as like boldenone 300, primo 200, sustanon 375, test 400, A 100, Anavar 10?

Bodenone used to be 50 mg in the old days, no test 400 around, Anavar 2.5.

Why bb'ers are bigger and heavyer than the 90's (better training techniques??? and?)

Lee haney: 222 pounds>>> Ronnie 278 pounds...others 250 to 320 pounds.

Is it becouse they have better and stronger drugs?

Do they have NITRIX? i am sure is not the reason.

I am not saying they take large dosis, i am just asking.

THEN Y R U ON ALL THESE THINGS BUT WOULD NOT BEAT THE PROS OF 30 YEARS AGO?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

HEINZ??

THEN Y R U ON ALL THESE THINGS BUT WOULD NOT BEAT THE PROS OF 30 YEARS AGO?

SINCE WHEN WAS LEE HANEY 222 POUNDS?? WHO IS TELLING YOU THESE THINGS/ WHAT ARE YOU READING? THIS IS GETTING SILLY.

 

[HELLA SWOLE]

sorry hella swole, but i missed your question in this earlier thread so i'll address it now, please remember this is just what works best for me...

i have used both humulin-r and humalog and have used both types of administration (sub-q and i.m).

i have tried all protocols from low carb/high insulin( 40 i.u training days)/high protien( gluconeogenisis), to the more common x amount in the am, x amount pwo, and everything in between.

what works best for me is taking my first shot one hour before i train. i use 7 i.u. of humulin-r, i.m with anywhere from 5-7 grams of carb per i.m., carbs in liquid form with no protien.

my second shot is 10 i.u of humulin-r, i.m, immediately after my workout with again 5- 7 gram of carb per i.u., carbs being rice cake and protien consisting of whey protein at 75 grams, and again followed by another meal of whey protein at 75 gram and a another carb source 1 hr. later. this is my last carb of the day, unless i start to go low.

i prefer humulin-r to humalog as i found i can control humulin better i.m than i can huma sub. q. -this is just me, but after years of on again/ off again trial and error with huma i still prefer humulin.

that i think is it. im not saying this is the only way to take it, or the right way, just what seems to be working best for me at this time.

hope this helps hella.

all the best.

BFU

Thanks a lot for that. I am always interested on hearing people's methods when it comes to slin usage since it is not talked about as often as other subjects.

 

[STEVO 47]

Stevo,
claims of this size must be supported with pictures. otherwise we must assume you are like many others.....come on now....man up.

No#1 I did not bring this up for bragging purposes or to show off for the
reason I don't feel I'm even close to some of these guys here on this
board. all I wanted was some information about what I was doing wrong
No#2 I've never had pictures of me here for the reason that I'm computer
illiterate as hell and far from an exabitionist. But for your curiousitly I do
have some vacation pictures that I'll try to get my girl friend to post up.
Not much to see but you will get an Idea and that will be all you get cause
I don't feel comfortable with the way I look right now. Now when I'm able
to get her off her ass for this it will be in the members photo. Excuse the
mid section this was taken a while back.