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I have yet to see 1 valid argument as to why food is more effective than whey protein

Don't mean to get off topic here but gotta post on that comment. Mandalay is spot on with his advice in the 2nd paragraph and his philosophy is identical with how I live my life. Whenever I want to achieve something I always look to someone else who has already achieved it successfully and emulate them. Alero, not sure why you think that is ignorant. :(

I appreciate you being courteous. I would never recommend walking up to some big guy at the gym, and taking the chance that he know what he's talking about, when you have a world of ever-changing information at your fingertips. I don't know where you guys work out, but even the majority of bigger guys are in the past when it comes to nutrition. Training? Yeah, I observe. I've picked up some great tips this way. That's the way to be. Use a little advice to forge your own way. Try not to emulate anybody - be you brother.
I read every post of this thread and enjoyed doing so. I didn't poke in and say, "All this debating and nobody cares! Just eat!!!!". If that's the way you feel, then stay out of the thread- don't come in and insult the people who are discussing it. If I took it wrong I apologize.
And I'll post some pics for you mandalay. I'm no ripped, mass monster. I"m 5'10'', 225 at 15% bf. That's it. Don't let that make you think I don't know what I'm talking about. I enjoy the learning just as much as the exercise aspect.
 
thank you. this is EXACTLY the point I am trying to convey. It is just common wisdom for people to think solid protein will yield better results and whey/casein/whatever powder. However, there is no evidence that this is indeed factual

Just because there is no funded study showing pasteurized powder with fillers artificial color and flavor that is most likely 2 years old is better or not than fish chicken or beef for protein come to your own conclusions. You started a good debate and you are dead wrong. Ask a pro if all they eat for their protein is some powder they wil look at ya like you crazy. In fact we could all do without it. FAKE COLOR FAKE FLAVOR 2 YEARS OLD TILL INGESTED- USED TO BE THROWN TO THE PIGS AND SUCH FOR SLOP- OR THROWN AWAY? ENOUGH SCIENCE FOR YA? You like sucralose (unproven) ya like aspertane? Food coloring? starch? Ill take a nice piece of fish or meat. We really dont know the true bioavilibilty. Its all theoretical. If egg is 100 how the fuck is whey 104? Supplement companies selling you shit. I never drink that shit and im ripped and stronger than you- guaranteed. So Piss poor debate. There are no studies because its pointless. Multi billion dollar supplement sales and companie would love to prove this. It would be a grand slam. Sorrry....you or i will never see it cause its a loser. I spent my day in the lab. Scientists know what where and when and this is a bunk hypothesis. So whats your background? Bro science? This has become absurd.
 
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Casein takes longer to digest than WPI, I dont think so.

The thing to note here is protein synthesis or the amount of amino acids used per given time frame and muscle cells protein production, as shown in this study.

WPI uses its amino supply rather quickly, around 2-3 hours. It peaks Leucine and insulin moreso than Casein does, then declines rapidly after the 2-3 hours mark.

Casein doesnt cause so much of a peak in both insulin, in fact about half as much as WPI, nor as much as a peak in Leucine. But after 6 hours has a higher rate of muscle cell production post workout.

This is why a blend is not suggested over Whey or Casein alone.

Casein in any blend, or isolated, really isn't superior. I forgot where it was, I can dig it up if you want me to, but someone on the behalf of Gaspari Nutrition had a good discussion point about how Casein really isn't that beneficial.

I really don't want to look for it, but google it if you're curious. This is all just paralysis by analysis. Good quality protein, or some egg whites, or whatever. Just get your protein in a good fashion. Eat if you can, drink it if you need to. Drink it if you want to, eat if you want to.
 
Casein in any blend, or isolated, really isn't superior. I forgot where it was, I can dig it up if you want me to, but someone on the behalf of Gaspari Nutrition had a good discussion point about how Casein really isn't that beneficial.

I really don't want to look for it, but google it if you're curious. This is all just paralysis by analysis. Good quality protein, or some egg whites, or whatever. Just get your protein in a good fashion. Eat if you can, drink it if you need to. Drink it if you want to, eat if you want to.

In fact Skim milk is more nutritious than old rotten powder with shit CHEMICALS in it. Ya get all major protein sources in skim or raw or whole milk. And its cheper. Smell some whey without the chemicals. You will puke. Ya think nature/God intends us to ingest vial byproduct that is used for slop? Bro (original poster) your reasoning sucks ass. Go get educated and decide for yourself. For all ya know whey causes kidney disease. Hasn't been studies scientifically but may be true- right? Prove me wrong....Same sort of lame argument you pose. Finish any college yet?
 
I read every post of this thread and enjoyed doing so. I didn't poke in and say, "All this debating and nobody cares! Just eat!!!!". If that's the way you feel, then stay out of the thread- don't come in and insult the people who are discussing it. If I took it wrong I apologize.

I did not mean to insult anyone, or you. Sometimes I am blunt because people in this sport, especially guys just starting, are looking for shortcuts and secrets. If you tell them flat out to eat right, lift right, rest right, and THEN drug right, they say "well can I just do shakes instead of meat?" , "do I really need to eat that much" , "should I use more test" , "am I ready for GH at 21" , "I dont like squats can I do leg extensions" , etc. Anymore, I am just rude to them. When I bother to post, I try to be as straight forward as possible so the new guys aren't misled. I don't want an 18 year old kid to read this thread and decide shakes are fine as his only protein source. That tends to turn into 15 other kids telling other kids that shit. With that said, I like to learn to, that's why I read things online while I am eating my meals (of whole food).
 
I did not mean to insult anyone, or you. Sometimes I am blunt because people in this sport, especially guys just starting, are looking for shortcuts and secrets. If you tell them flat out to eat right, lift right, rest right, and THEN drug right, they say "well can I just do shakes instead of meat?" , "do I really need to eat that much" , "should I use more test" , "am I ready for GH at 21" , "I dont like squats can I do leg extensions" , etc. Anymore, I am just rude to them. When I bother to post, I try to be as straight forward as possible so the new guys aren't misled. I don't want an 18 year old kid to read this thread and decide shakes are fine as his only protein source. That tends to turn into 15 other kids telling other kids that shit. With that said, I like to learn to, that's why I read things online while I am eating my meals (of whole food).

That I understand. Everyone seems to want quick, easy results with the littlest amount of time and energy. It's easier to post the same question over and over than to search themselves. It flushes your patience down the crapper.
You can only hope a few actually get the picture, because most won't. That's why most guys don't last. Too much commitment and accountability.
 
r J Nutr. 2000 Jun;83(6):623-8.
The physical state of a meal affects hormone release and postprandial thermogenesis.

Peracchi M, Santangelo A, Conte D, Fraquelli M, Tagliabue R, Gebbia C, Porrini M.

Department of Gastroenterology, University of Milan, Ospedale Maggiore-IRCCS, Italy. [email protected]

There is evidence that food consistency may influence postprandial physiological responses. Recently we found that homogenization of a vegetable-rich meal significantly delayed the gastric emptying rate and was more satiating than the same meal in solid-liquid form. In this present study we investigated whether homogenization also influences endocrine and metabolic responses to the meal. Eight healthy men, aged 21-28 (mean 24.5) years, were given the meal (cooked vegetables 250 g, cheese 35 g, croutons 50 g and olive oil 25 g, with water 300 ml; total energy 2.6 MJ) in both solid-liquid (SM) and homogenized (HM) form, in random order, at 1-week intervals. Variables assayed were plasma glucose, insulin and glucose-dependent insulinotropic peptide (GIP) levels for 2 h and diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) for 5 h. Plasma glucose pattern was similar after both meals. However, HM induced significantly greater insulin, GIP and DIT responses than SM. Mean integrated areas under the curves (AUC) were 1.7 (SEM 0.38) v. 1.2 (SEM 0.33) U/l per 120 min (P = 0.005) for insulin, 19.9 (SEM 2.44) v. 16 (SEM 1.92) nmol/l per 120 min (P = 0.042) for GIP, and 237.7 (SEM 16.32) v. 126.4 (SEM 23.48) kJ/300 min (P = 0.0029) for DIT respectively. Differences between GIP-AUC after HM and SM correlated significantly with differences between insulin-AUC after HM and SM (r2 0.62, P = 0.021). These findings demonstrate that homogenization of a meal results in a coordinated series of changes of physiological gastroentero-pancreatic functions and confirm that the physical state of the meal plays an important role in modulating endocrine and metabolic responses to food.

That's right, liquid was even perceived to be more satiating, go figure.
 
r J Nutr. 2000 Jun;83(6):623-8.
The physical state of a meal affects hormone release and postprandial thermogenesis.

Peracchi M, Santangelo A, Conte D, Fraquelli M, Tagliabue R, Gebbia C, Porrini M.

Department of Gastroenterology, University of Milan, Ospedale Maggiore-IRCCS, Italy. [email protected]

There is evidence that food consistency may influence postprandial physiological responses. Recently we found that homogenization of a vegetable-rich meal significantly delayed the gastric emptying rate and was more satiating than the same meal in solid-liquid form. In this present study we investigated whether homogenization also influences endocrine and metabolic responses to the meal. Eight healthy men, aged 21-28 (mean 24.5) years, were given the meal (cooked vegetables 250 g, cheese 35 g, croutons 50 g and olive oil 25 g, with water 300 ml; total energy 2.6 MJ) in both solid-liquid (SM) and homogenized (HM) form, in random order, at 1-week intervals. Variables assayed were plasma glucose, insulin and glucose-dependent insulinotropic peptide (GIP) levels for 2 h and diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) for 5 h. Plasma glucose pattern was similar after both meals. However, HM induced significantly greater insulin, GIP and DIT responses than SM. Mean integrated areas under the curves (AUC) were 1.7 (SEM 0.38) v. 1.2 (SEM 0.33) U/l per 120 min (P = 0.005) for insulin, 19.9 (SEM 2.44) v. 16 (SEM 1.92) nmol/l per 120 min (P = 0.042) for GIP, and 237.7 (SEM 16.32) v. 126.4 (SEM 23.48) kJ/300 min (P = 0.0029) for DIT respectively. Differences between GIP-AUC after HM and SM correlated significantly with differences between insulin-AUC after HM and SM (r2 0.62, P = 0.021). These findings demonstrate that homogenization of a meal results in a coordinated series of changes of physiological gastroentero-pancreatic functions and confirm that the physical state of the meal plays an important role in modulating endocrine and metabolic responses to food.

That's right, liquid was even perceived to be more satiating, go figure.


Can someone elaborate a little on what exactly this means? Only conclusion I can draw from it is that maybe liquid spikes insulin better so post workout shake is a good idea?
 
I dont know if this has been mentioned in this thread yet, but real foods are better than whey protein shakes because real foods dont make me fart nearly as much (at least the protein Ive been buying).
Ive been thinking of sewing a carbon filter into a depends undergarment so my wife will let me come into the house, the garage is cold and lonely.

As far as the original question, I think that in some circumstances that whey protein is better, particulary when I diet. I tend to cut out the whole foods and rely on cutting calories and maximizing the protein intake. Doing that gets my mind in the 'mode' of feeding a machine. When I start eating real whole foods when cutting, my daily calorie intake goes beyond what I want.

Besides things like antioxidants and phytonutrients that one would miss out on in whole foods. And coming from a medical cardiology background, whey protein is better than animal sources of protein. For the saturated fat perspective and the increase rate of cancers. Does that stop me from eating meat, no way, carnivore through and through. But whey protein is probably better scientifically on that basis.

As far as sustainable, I havent found replacing meals with shakes a long term option but it has its place.
I think its a wash, a tossup with a slight edge going to the shake b/c of the lower fat content than most meats and definitely better than the artery clogging insulin producing processed foods. Slight edge towards lean protein such as chicken if it sits on a plate of healthy green leafy vegetables due to phytonutrients and their abilities to prevent disease and give micronutrients.
Ok back to toss up
 
Not on either side of this one, but isn't all protein, regardless of the source, broken down into the individual amino acids that are the "building blocks" of that particular protein? Aren't those amino acids then used by the body as needed, along with many other nutrients, to help repair/replace any tissue thats effected? Once digested, yes I realize that some are more easily digested than others, can the body really distinguish from what source those amino acids were derived? If you take a can of XYZ's protein, pull out the flavorings and various additives that supposedly makes it better than all the others, don't you have a can of amino acids? Regardless of the brand. This may be over simplified, but is it incorrect?
 
Vey very interesting topic!!!!!! ..... in science there's empirical evidence and anecdotal evidence, which I think is at play here, making this almost a trick or paradoxical question.As for my personal opinion I prefer whole foods AND whey protein. Hey alpha what lead you to post this clever comment?
 
Not on either side of this one, but isn't all protein, regardless of the source, broken down into the individual amino acids that are the "building blocks" of that particular protein? Aren't those amino acids then used by the body as needed, along with many other nutrients, to help repair/replace any tissue thats effected? Once digested, yes I realize that some are more easily digested than others, can the body really distinguish from what source those amino acids were derived? If you take a can of XYZ's protein, pull out the flavorings and various additives that supposedly makes it better than all the others, don't you have a can of amino acids? Regardless of the brand. This may be over simplified, but is it incorrect?

Yup, essentially you have complete proteins and that are broken down into the constituent amino acids and then reassembled or put to use to make energy via neoglucogenesis or whatever function the body sees fit.
So really the argument boils down to what comes with the protein and is that good or bad or better or same?
Essentially a tossup though from the point of a view as 10 grams of a complete protein is broken down just like 10 grams of another protein despite what marketing claims companies make.

And how it breaks it down, how quickly can be good or bad depending on one's goals. So in essence its a zen question.
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. "Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."

"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you can't truly know that they are enjoying themselves."

"You are not me," said Chuang Tzu. "So how do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?"

So the answer to the original poster's query is it depends on the person or it could be looked at from a physics point of view

The question was raised: "If a man alone in the woods speaks, and his
wife cannot hear him, is he still wrong?"

I have considered this question in light of the principles of Modern
Physics and offer my thesis

In the year 1900 Max Planck discovered that the energy of light is
quantified. In 1905 Albert Einstein used Planck's Constant to write the
theory of the Photoelectric Effect, that light behaves as a particle
when it comes to energy transfer. Louis de Broglie proposed that
particles can have a wave nature and this fact was later verified.

These discoveries led Neils Bohr to propose a radical theory of the
atom, which was partially successful in explaining the emission spectra
of the hydrogen atom. Neils Bohr was compelled to introduce the
Principle of "Complementarity," that light is both a particle and a
wave.

The modern theories were extended when Max Born showed that the
distribution of energy was a function of probability. Further, Warner
Heisenberg wrote the Principle of Uncertainty, which says that it is
impossible to determine the exact location of an electron and the vector
direction of its momentum at the same time.

This was followed with the master stroke penned by Erwin Schrodinger.
Using the "Psi function" of Quantum Mechanics, Schrodinger could map the
"wave field" of any particle, thus giving us a theoretical explanation
for the structure of an atom and the entire periodic table of the
elements.

The Quantum mechanics predicts that a wave of a single frequency would
stretch out to infinite proportions, the superposition of a narrow range
of frequencies produces a standing wave function which can be localized
to a much more precise location. Thus the electron and its position
within an atom becomes a cloud of probability.

From this I infer that there are such states as being right and being
wrong, within certain parameters of uncertainty. Applying the Psi
function, the more vague the statement of the man the greater the
probability of him being correct. The narrower and more specific his
utterance the greater the likelihood of his being wrong.

Also, the Principle of Complementarity assures us that if a man alone in
the woods speaks, and his wife can not hear him, he is BOTH right and
wrong until he comes out of the woods.

In the analogy of Schrodinger's Cat, the cat in the box is both dead and
alive until someone opens the lid. The act of observing the phenomenon
determines the outcome.

Thus, the inevitable conclusion is that it doesn't matter what the man
says only his wife can determine whether or not he is correct.

The inevitable conclusion to the question of this thread is not what the posters on this thread say, but only the person drinking the protein shake can determine which is better, food or shake (depending on their goals and needs)
 
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Can someone elaborate a little on what exactly this means? Only conclusion I can draw from it is that maybe liquid spikes insulin better so post workout shake is a good idea?

Well most of the time you hear "the body has to work harder to break down whole food thus more thermogenesis" while this study found the opposite to be true lol
 


Just because there is no funded study showing pasteurized powder with fillers artificial color and flavor that is most likely 2 years old is better or not than fish chicken or beef for protein come to your own conclusions. You started a good debate and you are dead wrong. Ask a pro if all they eat for their protein is some powder they wil look at ya like you crazy. In fact we could all do without it. FAKE COLOR FAKE FLAVOR 2 YEARS OLD TILL INGESTED- USED TO BE THROWN TO THE PIGS AND SUCH FOR SLOP- OR THROWN AWAY? ENOUGH SCIENCE FOR YA? You like sucralose (unproven) ya like aspertane? Food coloring? starch? Ill take a nice piece of fish or meat. We really dont know the true bioavilibilty. Its all theoretical. If egg is 100 how the fuck is whey 104? Supplement companies selling you shit. I never drink that shit and im ripped and stronger than you- guaranteed. So Piss poor debate. There are no studies because its pointless. Multi billion dollar supplement sales and companie would love to prove this. It would be a grand slam. Sorrry....you or i will never see it cause its a loser. I spent my day in the lab. Scientists know what where and when and this is a bunk hypothesis. So whats your background? Bro science? This has become absurd.

what makes an ifbb pro know more than you or me? The fact they have better bodies than us? No, it is because they have better genetics. Let's face it, the vast majority of us who post on this site have serious dedication to working out consistently and effectively, as well as nutrition. The pros do, for the most part, the same stuff we do and look better because of their genetics (and in many cases, more AAS).

with that being said, if you are ripped and stronger than me (which I don't doubt, I am 5'9 215 roughly 12% bodyfat right now), it isn't because you eat more food. Like I said before, most of my meals come from solid food sources as well. When I do have protein powder, I combine it with oatmeal which I drink with it.

As far as your supplement theories go, you are just guessing that they are all putting out faulty products when in reality, I am sure many of the powders do have the amount of protein their labels say

And your broscience argument is invalid. I am not saying whey is better than chicken or fish, I am saying that it is probably the same. Nothing I have seen has proven otherwise. Why should I choose to believe angry posters such as yourself that get all mad and just say something like "you're stupid, you have no idea what you are talking about n00b." (that isn't exactly what you said but the tone of your post made me read it that way). So technically, you are the one stating the broscience that solid protein is more effective for body composition than whey/casein protein.

Not once have I even attempted to say or prove powder is more effective. All I have done in my posts is counter the people who say solid protein is superior to powder.
 
Vey very interesting topic!!!!!! ..... in science there's empirical evidence and anecdotal evidence, which I think is at play here, making this almost a trick or paradoxical question.As for my personal opinion I prefer whole foods AND whey protein. Hey alpha what lead you to post this clever comment?

I think it is interesting as well. I applaud the posters in this thread who have an open mind about this subject. What lead me to post this thread is self explanatory: that I have not seen any valid reasons why protein from food will yield a better body than protein from whey or casein

even the experts/gurus that have chimed in here really haven't stated anything that wasn't obvious. Something along the lines of "food is more satisfying" or "if you have time, have a meal. otherwise, have a shake" really aren't useful comments in this debate. No one is arguing those points
 
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yup, discussion got heated over nothing..........Unsubscribed.
 
Eat when u feel like eating, drink when you feel like drinking--protein of course,

i don`t like drinking whey all day long,(DOING IT these days 12-14 scoops/day... super busy Schedule...LOL)............ neither do i like eating all the time.....
Arnold Schwarzenegger did not become olympia--because of whey isolate but Ronnie coleman did use it.

so its all about convience, my life style write now is 18 hours/day work 6 days a week...so i have to live with the whey isolate and peanut butter...i`ll start eating again after this "phase of struggle".

its all good.... just need to enjoy.
 
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Just because there is no funded study showing pasteurized powder with fillers artificial color and flavor that is most likely 2 years old is better or no than fish chicken or beef for protein come to your own conclusions. You started a good debate and you are dead wrong. Ask a pro if all they eat for their protein is some powder they wil look at ya like you crazy. In fact we could all do without it. FAKE COLOR FAKE FLAVOR 2 YEARS OLD TILL INGESTED- USED TO BE THROWN TO THE PIGS AND SUCH FOR SLOP- OR THROWN AWAY? ENOUGH SCIENCE FOR YA? You like sucralose (unproven) ya like aspertane? Food coloring? starch? Ill take a nice piece of fish or meat. We really dont know the true bioavilibilty. Its all theoretical. If egg is 100 how the fuck is whey 104? Supplement companies selling you shit. I never drink that shit and im ripped and stronger than you- guaranteed. So Piss poor debate. There are no studies because its pointless. Multi billion dollar supplement sales and companie would love to prove this. It would be a grand slam. Sorrry....you or i will never see it cause its a loser. I spent my day in the lab. Scientists know what where and when and this is a bunk hypothesis. So whats your background? Bro science? This has become absurd.
Great post!
 
WPI Only

90% of my meals are WPI (unflavoured, no additives, ion exhange) for Protein, Extra Virgin Olive Oil and Fruit Juice with Glycerine.

The only time I eat whole meals is when I eat ouit with the GF.

About 125kg at 10%BF.

Im very lactose intorelerant and cant drink any WPC blends or milk, Have no problem with WPI. I feel great, good energy, never bloated, digestion is good, stay lean easily and strong in the gym and growing slowly. I think high quality WPI is great.

Just like grass fed organic beef is better than cheap beef, there is big difference between cheap blends and Pure WPI.
 
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