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Jeff nippard on high frequency

rotinaj

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Do you think most guys continue to follow DC training as written or add things to it? I'll see alot of guys who are proponents of DC training but then they are doing specific exercises for the long head of the tricep, rear delts, getting the squeeze really feeling the muscle, exercises you can't really be progressive with in the long run.
I think the generation of bodybuilders who followed Dante's training are fading out for a new generation and the one's who follow DC likely aren't following it to a T.
Trying to isolate/squeeze specific areas of a muscle is sort of contradictory to DC however.
Which I think is fine honestly. As new information comes out we should implement it, observe the results, and improve from it.

No routine is objectively perfect so I believe it's important to tweak things for our individual needs.
Plus sometimes I like to work chest on Monday's and seeing 4 tiktok gymbros hog every bench press for 1-2 hours gets annoying.
 

Mufasa123

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5x per week full body is a bit on the extreme side. Most full body is 3x per week and even that needs to be managed if you aren't a beginner (ie no experienced lifter squats for heavy volume 3x per week so it needs to be schemed). So there's some real give here in 5 full body sessions in managing volume and intensity (not feel but %1RM as properly defined).

The more frequency on the big lifts, the less room there is for detail and isolation work. This is why so many default to chest, back, legs - it's a nice balance allowing compounds, specialized work (within reason), and decent frequency.

You only have so much battery/work capacity/recovery etc... so what are your goals for the period and focus on what's important to achieve them most efficiently. Also what works and is tolerable for 3 weeks is not necessarily tolerable for 10 weeks as fatigue accumulates.

Nothing works forever and frequently what is optimal NOW is optimal mainly because of what you were doing before to set the stage for it (ie one of Arthur Jones/Mentzers super low Vol low frequency was effective for a period of a few weeks because it was resting/recovering/allowing for adaptation from the mega volume programs these guys has been running before - classic fitness fatigue theory which they attributed erroneously to their superior program). Hence a plan is important.

While I think all of the above is logical and proper training let me also say... Look at the extreme variation in training by successful bodybuilders even on this board. I personally think it doesn't matter that much unless something is really wrong (ie dude refuses to lift over 135lbs ever and halts any progression potential). Be thoughtful, focus on what's important, train for progress, enjoy it but in bodybuilding diet, genetics, drugs would seem to dominate training as long as it's not crazy bad. A few quotes that I think are notable as close as I can remember:

"Out of all the PhDs and scientists in the world, no one has made a bigger human than a dumbshit (for effect not negative) bodybuilder." I forget who said this and even in pure strength/sport there are more PhDs who don't know shit than do.

"The most important element of any reasonable training program is that the athlete believes in it." Glenn Pendlay agreed with this and would say it often but attribute it to someone else.

Not sure if that's helpful. A lot of people hit on similar stuff already but maybe something in there helps someone.
 

Bandy0974

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Personally, my body gets run down feeling if I train too many times a week. Not from over stimulation of the muscle, but more of a nervous system fatigue. I lose my motivation and kind of half ass workouts. Had a training partner who could train every day even with high volume and never seemed burned out though.
 

Performance Based

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I see no value in training a body part over 2-3 times per week. It takes too much time to warm up each muscle group and you get mentally burned out fast!
Something that has helped me here - don’t look at the warm up as a traditional warm up but use that time for body part specific mobility drills under load.

This is one thing that nearly everyone neglects - forces you to implement it.


To the original post - I train extremely high volume, that being said I am also NOT a bodybuilder. For human performance multi day per week targeting is absolutely mandatory. It really gets down to how the individual “defines” their fitness. For me it is the amount of activation I can achieve at a high level without experiencing a decline in performance.

Not to be contrarian but quite a few of the issues posted seem to show more of a lack of work capacity, fitness and “this is how we’ve always done it” mindsets. If you are not a competitive bodybuilder I would sincerely recommend giving this a shot prior to formulating opinions on it.
 

Performance Based

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Personally, my body gets run down feeling if I train too many times a week. Not from over stimulation of the muscle, but more of a nervous system fatigue. I lose my motivation and kind of half ass workouts. Had a training partner who could train every day even with high volume and never seemed burned out though.


Incredibly easy to increase work capacity mate - this just has to be a priority for a multi month block through various facets.

Best way to increase the ability for CNS load in all sincerity is steady state cardio utilizing full body activation (swimming and rucking).

Check out omega wave - by proper application of stressors timed properly you can massively increase your work capacity.

 

tornquad201

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Something that has helped me here - don’t look at the warm up as a traditional warm up but use that time for body part specific mobility drills under load.

This is one thing that nearly everyone neglects - forces you to implement it.


To the original post - I train extremely high volume, that being said I am also NOT a bodybuilder. For human performance multi day per week targeting is absolutely mandatory. It really gets down to how the individual “defines” their fitness. For me it is the amount of activation I can achieve at a high level without experiencing a decline in performance.

Not to be contrarian but quite a few of the issues posted seem to show more of a lack of work capacity, fitness and “this is how we’ve always done it” mindsets. If you are not a competitive bodybuilder I would sincerely recommend giving this a shot prior to formulating opinions on it.
When you say high volume how many sets per body part and how many of them are too muscular failure
 

Performance Based

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When you say high volume how many sets per body part and how many of them are too muscular failure


Standard week is 4-5 durability sessions, 3-4 runs (sprints) and 10 hours in the pool right now.

Back gets 50+ sets per week, all to failure / beyond (band assistance, negatives, etc)

It purely gets down to the individuals work capacity in all sincerity. Highly recommend picking up any books written by Ross Edgley. As long as one can track their metrics and recovery there really isn’t a limit to how much you can do with proper programming.
 

juggy38

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I don’t do full body, but I have ran many successful push/pull/off/repeat

Horizontal press
Vertical press
Middle delt
Tricep work
Quads- 6 sets
Calves

Horizontal row
Vertical row
Rear delt
Bicep
Deadlift
Leg curls

Hard topset+backoff then move on.

Different exercises like DC method.
A1, B1, A2, B2.

If I feel beat up just go to 4x a week or 3 day a week to Deload.
 

qbkilla

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5x per week full body is a bit on the extreme side. Most full body is 3x per week and even that needs to be managed if you aren't a beginner (ie no experienced lifter squats for heavy volume 3x per week so it needs to be schemed). So there's some real give here in 5 full body sessions in managing volume and intensity (not feel but %1RM as properly defined).

The more frequency on the big lifts, the less room there is for detail and isolation work. This is why so many default to chest, back, legs - it's a nice balance allowing compounds, specialized work (within reason), and decent frequency.

You only have so much battery/work capacity/recovery etc... so what are your goals for the period and focus on what's important to achieve them most efficiently. Also what works and is tolerable for 3 weeks is not necessarily tolerable for 10 weeks as fatigue accumulates.

Nothing works forever and frequently what is optimal NOW is optimal mainly because of what you were doing before to set the stage for it (ie one of Arthur Jones/Mentzers super low Vol low frequency was effective for a period of a few weeks because it was resting/recovering/allowing for adaptation from the mega volume programs these guys has been running before - classic fitness fatigue theory which they attributed erroneously to their superior program). Hence a plan is important.

While I think all of the above is logical and proper training let me also say... Look at the extreme variation in training by successful bodybuilders even on this board. I personally think it doesn't matter that much unless something is really wrong (ie dude refuses to lift over 135lbs ever and halts any progression potential). Be thoughtful, focus on what's important, train for progress, enjoy it but in bodybuilding diet, genetics, drugs would seem to dominate training as long as it's not crazy bad. A few quotes that I think are notable as close as I can remember:

"Out of all the PhDs and scientists in the world, no one has made a bigger human than a dumbshit (for effect not negative) bodybuilder." I forget who said this and even in pure strength/sport there are more PhDs who don't know shit than do.

"The most important element of any reasonable training program is that the athlete believes in it." Glenn Pendlay agreed with this and would say it often but attribute it to someone else.

Not sure if that's helpful. A lot of people hit on similar stuff already but maybe something in there helps someone.
Good points. I think the way these guys set it up volume is equated. For example if you do a bro-split and hit chest Monday for 10 sets. Now your jut doing 2 sets each of the 5 days. So no more work over the week for chest other than the fact that you may get more reps total because by the 9th, 10th set on the bro split your going to be fatigued.

Example say just for arguments sake I do a bro split and my routine is 5 sets of bench 5 sets of dips.

Monday

Bench
250x12,10,8,6,3

Dips
BW x25,21,18, 16,12

Now day I switched it so im doing 1 set of Bench, 1 set of dips on M-F. Lets look at bench.

Monday 250x12
Tuesday 250x12
Wednesday 250x10
Thursday 250x9
Friday 250x8

I can likely do more total reps with the same amount of sets/volume per week as the bro split ( because24 hours rest between each set vs 3 minutes rest) which these guys say would lead to more growth.

I don't think they set it up like that though. It may be only 1 compound movement per week..Mon-Bench...Tue-Flyes...Wed-DB Bench....Thur - Flies...Friday-pushups.

Not advocating for doing ithis way but it does make for interesting discussion lol
 

Mufasa123

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Good points. I think the way these guys set it up volume is equated. For example if you do a bro-split and hit chest Monday for 10 sets. Now your jut doing 2 sets each of the 5 days. So no more work over the week for chest other than the fact that you may get more reps total because by the 9th, 10th set on the bro split your going to be fatigued.

Example say just for arguments sake I do a bro split and my routine is 5 sets of bench 5 sets of dips.

Monday

Bench
250x12,10,8,6,3

Dips
BW x25,21,18, 16,12

Now day I switched it so im doing 1 set of Bench, 1 set of dips on M-F. Lets look at bench.

Monday 250x12
Tuesday 250x12
Wednesday 250x10
Thursday 250x9
Friday 250x8

I can likely do more total reps with the same amount of sets/volume per week as the bro split ( because24 hours rest between each set vs 3 minutes rest) which these guys say would lead to more growth.

I don't think they set it up like that though. It may be only 1 compound movement per week..Mon-Bench...Tue-Flyes...Wed-DB Bench....Thur - Flies...Friday-pushups.

Not advocating for doing ithis way but it does make for interesting discussion lol

It is interesting. Let's focus on a single movement like the back squat and assume it's not about 5 different exercises - just to keep it simple.

Higher frequency allows for more "practice" neural effeciency of a movement. While this isn't the end goal of a bodybuilder this directly correlates to both ability to perform more work in both volume (higher quality reps so less energy waste = more reps) and ability to handle more weight which facilitates progressive loading. Both of these are SUPER important to hypertrophy.
The only issue here is that there is potential for diminishing returns - ie how often do you do a movement where the bulk of these benefits taper off (ie there's a reason powerlifters don't bench, squat and dead every day...do it super light and it doesn't matter, do it on weights/intensities that matter and you burn up).

So if you spread the volume we run into another issue that's directly important to bodybuilding and that's micro trauma to the muscle fibers. You need to do enough mechanical work in a relevant intensity (%1rm) range to cause a decent level of micro trauma. 5 sets of 5 at 80% will DEFINITELY do it in one session but will 1x5 at 80% done 5 times a week cause enough in any one session to drive that adaptation and can it be done for long this way (ie a full training cycle or as basis for a permanent/semi permanent plan for a year)? I'll be honest, this isn't a well understood and quantified area but I'd bet it's not as good and you are better off with a single 5x5 80% session a week (or break into two) along with a second or third lighter session for practice/maintenance of efficiency.

Every one is different and at a different level of development or phase of training but for an experienced lifter on a consistent basis... that's where I put my chips. Plus it's tried and true in seriously well funded and researched Eastern Block and Russian training as the back squat really mattered. Most of seen is Smolov Squat program which was basically dedicated to improving the back squat (ie NOT all around bodybuilding or balanced) and it was 4x per week. Probably a clue worth paying attention to for practical application but nothing wrong with trying and messing around either. Like I said, this area with regard to hypertrophy (not strength) isn't well understood or properly studied in experienced lifters.
 

Big Dave Smith

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Socialism works in theory.

Not everything works when put into play.

I’ve met Menno. Nice guy. You’d never guess he lifted weights. Read all the books you want, I’m not trusting my sex life to a virgin.
 

qbkilla

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It is interesting. Let's focus on a single movement like the back squat and assume it's not about 5 different exercises - just to keep it simple.

Higher frequency allows for more "practice" neural effeciency of a movement. While this isn't the end goal of a bodybuilder this directly correlates to both ability to perform more work in both volume (higher quality reps so less energy waste = more reps) and ability to handle more weight which facilitates progressive loading. Both of these are SUPER important to hypertrophy.
The only issue here is that there is potential for diminishing returns - ie how often do you do a movement where the bulk of these benefits taper off (ie there's a reason powerlifters don't bench, squat and dead every day...do it super light and it doesn't matter, do it on weights/intensities that matter and you burn up).

So if you spread the volume we run into another issue that's directly important to bodybuilding and that's micro trauma to the muscle fibers. You need to do enough mechanical work in a relevant intensity (%1rm) range to cause a decent level of micro trauma. 5 sets of 5 at 80% will DEFINITELY do it in one session but will 1x5 at 80% done 5 times a week cause enough in any one session to drive that adaptation and can it be done for long this way (ie a full training cycle or as basis for a permanent/semi permanent plan for a year)? I'll be honest, this isn't a well understood and quantified area but I'd bet it's not as good and you are better off with a single 5x5 80% session a week (or break into two) along with a second or third lighter session for practice/maintenance of efficiency.

Every one is different and at a different level of development or phase of training but for an experienced lifter on a consistent basis... that's where I put my chips. Plus it's tried and true in seriously well funded and researched Eastern Block and Russian training as the back squat really mattered. Most of seen is Smolov Squat program which was basically dedicated to improving the back squat (ie NOT all around bodybuilding or balanced) and it was 4x per week. Probably a clue worth paying attention to for practical application but nothing wrong with trying and messing around either. Like I said, this area with regard to hypertrophy (not strength) isn't well understood or properly studied in experienced lifters.
Good point. The evidence based nerds on Reddit do seem to say there is a minimum volume per workout where it matters so that is inline with what you said about the micro trauma. 1 set at a time each day may not even get a response.

I think I read one time you need atleast 3 sets of a muscle group in a session, but once you go past 10 it's "junk volume" that doesn't add more towards growth but fatigues. My numbers may be off but something like that.
 

qbkilla

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Socialism works in theory.

Not everything works when put into play.

I’ve met Menno. Nice guy. You’d never guess he lifted weights. Read all the books you want, I’m not trusting my sex life to a virgin.
Hahaha, great analogy with the socialism. And agree on memno, helms, the one science guy that does look like he's built something is nippard but for all we know he has good genetics or built his base on a good old fashioned bro split.
 

Mufasa123

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Good point. The evidence based nerds on Reddit do seem to say there is a minimum volume per workout where it matters so that is inline with what you said about the micro trauma. 1 set at a time each day may not even get a response.

I think I read one time you need atleast 3 sets of a muscle group in a session, but once you go past 10 it's "junk volume" that doesn't add more towards growth but fatigues. My numbers may be off but something like that.

Sometimes it helps not to think in sets but total reps performed (how volume or tonnage is quantified). You could do 3 sets of 2 and even at heavy weight (intensity) not accrue enough micro trauma. We spoke that 5x5 at 80% was definitely enough but how is this really different than 25 sets of singles at that same 80% weight. For the tonnage or volume Calc it's not and in practical application sets are really just dense clusters of reps (density or time work is done in also matters for work capacity improvement etc). Suffice to say if you aren't at extremes in time/density, total reps is much more aligned than # of sets.

This is why for primary drivers we use volume (total reps) and intensity (%1RM) and discard low weight warm ups as they aren't relevant. For hypertrophy mechanical work (total reps) in a relevant intensity range is key. Doing enough work that matters is what yields micro trauma. Also looking at total reps in most common training paradigms they decline as intensity increases. See below and assume lower rep sets are at heavier weight.

3x10 = 30 reps
5x5 = 25 reps
6x3 = 18 reps

Total reps drop but not nearly as much as you might think given sets of 10 versus triples. Mechanical work matters. This is also why range of motion is important and other than on occasional or one off special needs use low range of motion partials don't work long term. Not enough distance or work being done despite ability to overload the top end with greater than 100% intensities.

Also people say singles aren't good for BBing but we just showed how it's really about work. In legit heavy singles, it's a tremendously stimulative rep causing much micro trauma. Problem is you can't do enough mechanical work with heavy max singles to cause enough micro trauma or even consistent training effect. Honestly even in PL, while this is the most sport specific way to train, no experienced lifter structures workouts around max singles all the time. Another clue!
 

FK86

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Sometimes it helps not to think in sets but total reps performed (how volume or tonnage is quantified). You could do 3 sets of 2 and even at heavy weight (intensity) not accrue enough micro trauma. We spoke that 5x5 at 80% was definitely enough but how is this really different than 25 sets of singles at that same 80% weight. For the tonnage or volume Calc it's not and in practical application sets are really just dense clusters of reps (density or time work is done in also matters for work capacity improvement etc). Suffice to say if you aren't at extremes in time/density, total reps is much more aligned than # of sets.

This is why for primary drivers we use volume (total reps) and intensity (%1RM) and discard low weight warm ups as they aren't relevant. For hypertrophy mechanical work (total reps) in a relevant intensity range is key. Doing enough work that matters is what yields micro trauma. Also looking at total reps in most common training paradigms they decline as intensity increases. See below and assume lower rep sets are at heavier weight.

3x10 = 30 reps
5x5 = 25 reps
6x3 = 18 reps

Total reps drop but not nearly as much as you might think given sets of 10 versus triples. Mechanical work matters. This is also why range of motion is important and other than on occasional or one off special needs use low range of motion partials don't work long term. Not enough distance or work being done despite ability to overload the top end with greater than 100% intensities.

Also people say singles aren't good for BBing but we just showed how it's really about work. In legit heavy singles, it's a tremendously stimulative rep causing much micro trauma. Problem is you can't do enough mechanical work with heavy max singles to cause enough micro trauma or even consistent training effect. Honestly even in PL, while this is the most sport specific way to train, no experienced lifter structures workouts around max singles all the time. Another clue!
Great post. It's how I switched my programming back in September. The amount of sets I do is based on the amount of reps I do. And as you pointed out, it's adequate work done at a certain level of effort. I hit failure quite sparingly and moved away from all that stuff. I want my training to be as basic and straightforward as possible. That's why I like sets across. I do my warm-up sets and then my work sets are done with various rep schemes. Auto-regulation and undulating periodization take care of themselves.
 

cal

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There are some programs I've looked into that are way over-complicated by the person presenting it. I signed up with Paul Carter for one of his programs. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but when you read his training and the reasons, and the intricacies of his methods I just don't see the reasoning for all that complication he puts into it. I'm sure his programs work, but so does Phil's, and DC, etc.
His old training stuff is very basic. HE has lately tried to get fancy.
 

Flex500

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Overall this thought process hits themes from fortitude training. On the 4 day a week plan you are hitting the entire body four days a week. Of course, one set to failure 6-7 days a week takes that to a different level and in fortitude there is rhyme and reason to what you are hitting when and variance in rep ranges, etc

This method of training can be fun, until it gets boring. I see Justin Harris tried it for a while and I'd encourage you all to give it a shot. This won't burn you down and if you are drugs you are not going to shrink and you will know pretty quickly if you need to change. There is also a few ways to skin this cat if you want to dip your toe in the water. I have organically fallen into this...

Day 1: Legs, Back, Bi's: This is the day I squat, deadlift and put a little more volume into back and legs
Day 2: Chest, Shoulder, Tr: Standard "push day"
Day 3: Full Body (work sets vary depending on how many days I make it to gym)
Day 4: Full Body Optional (work sets vary depending on how many gym days)
Day 5: Full Body Optional (work sets vary depending on gym days)

If I make it to the gym 5 days I just do 1 set to failure in the 15-20 rep range on Day 3,4, and 5. If I can only go three days I do 3 sets like that on day 3. As others have pointed out I really look at not just sets but total reps, intensity, etc.

You really can increase your work capacity to an extreme level but the question still remains would full body, 6-7 days a week be best for overall hypertrophy and from what I've seen, read, and experienced, I think a more hybrid approach like fortitude would be better or even something like I'm doing.
 

alfresco

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Overall this thought process hits themes from fortitude training. On the 4 day a week plan you are hitting the entire body four days a week. Of course, one set to failure 6-7 days a week takes that to a different level and in fortitude there is rhyme and reason to what you are hitting when and variance in rep ranges, etc

This method of training can be fun, until it gets boring. I see Justin Harris tried it for a while and I'd encourage you all to give it a shot. This won't burn you down and if you are drugs you are not going to shrink and you will know pretty quickly if you need to change. There is also a few ways to skin this cat if you want to dip your toe in the water. I have organically fallen into this...

Day 1: Legs, Back, Bi's: This is the day I squat, deadlift and put a little more volume into back and legs
Day 2: Chest, Shoulder, Tr: Standard "push day"
Day 3: Full Body (work sets vary depending on how many days I make it to gym)
Day 4: Full Body Optional (work sets vary depending on how many gym days)
Day 5: Full Body Optional (work sets vary depending on gym days)

If I make it to the gym 5 days I just do 1 set to failure in the 15-20 rep range on Day 3,4, and 5. If I can only go three days I do 3 sets like that on day 3. As others have pointed out I really look at not just sets but total reps, intensity, etc.

You really can increase your work capacity to an extreme level but the question still remains would full body, 6-7 days a week be best for overall hypertrophy and from what I've seen, read, and experienced, I think a more hybrid approach like fortitude would be better or even something like I'm doing.
Good to see some civil, in-depth training conversations . . . even if most of it is pure bunk 😉
 

qbkilla

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Overall this thought process hits themes from fortitude training. On the 4 day a week plan you are hitting the entire body four days a week. Of course, one set to failure 6-7 days a week takes that to a different level and in fortitude there is rhyme and reason to what you are hitting when and variance in rep ranges, etc

This method of training can be fun, until it gets boring. I see Justin Harris tried it for a while and I'd encourage you all to give it a shot. This won't burn you down and if you are drugs you are not going to shrink and you will know pretty quickly if you need to change. There is also a few ways to skin this cat if you want to dip your toe in the water. I have organically fallen into this...

Day 1: Legs, Back, Bi's: This is the day I squat, deadlift and put a little more volume into back and legs
Day 2: Chest, Shoulder, Tr: Standard "push day"
Day 3: Full Body (work sets vary depending on how many days I make it to gym)
Day 4: Full Body Optional (work sets vary depending on how many gym days)
Day 5: Full Body Optional (work sets vary depending on gym days)

If I make it to the gym 5 days I just do 1 set to failure in the 15-20 rep range on Day 3,4, and 5. If I can only go three days I do 3 sets like that on day 3. As others have pointed out I really look at not just sets but total reps, intensity, etc.

You really can increase your work capacity to an extreme level but the question still remains would full body, 6-7 days a week be best for overall hypertrophy and from what I've seen, read, and experienced, I think a more hybrid approach like fortitude would be better or even something like I'm doing.
I was actually reading about fortitude earlier today and thinking about giving it a try. A very low volume routine with high frequency and well thought out.
 

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