Keto vs high carb

[johnjuanb1]

For both cutting and lean bulking during my competition years (I don’t like dirty bulking. My HDL is always very low from year round AAS use/abuse so eating dirty will clog my arteries. I’ve lost way too many bodybuilder friends who ate like your typical American slobs while bulking that died way too young from heart related issues and kidneys related issues from very high blood pressure.) I liked to keep dietary fat low, high protein, moderate carbs. For lean bulking I’d have 500ish calorie meals/shakes 10 times times a day. For cutting I’ll have 350-500 calorie meals/shakes 6 times a day. 50 grams protein, a couple grams of fat from fish oil capsules and mct oil capsules, and 30-50 grams clean complex carbs. This was when I was competing in bodybuilding. Now that I’m old and going mostly for health I eat a variety of fruit, and I eat 3 egg yolks with my 13 egg whites per day, mixed nuts…healthy fats, fruit, and vegetables. During my competition years I never had fruit, vegetables, or foods with fat except for my one weekly cheat meal. I was from the school of diet that Andreas Muntzer believed in which was a diet consisting of only lean protein sources and complex carbohydrates year round. Although, he did it all with whole foods while I did it mostly with protein/oat shakes. His method was the correct method. I’m not into cooking or food prepping.

 

[need4tren]

A 250lb man that has a shit ton of muscle probably at some point in his diet dropped his carbs down pretty low, how much depends on the individual but some big guys are probably producing a good amount of ketones on 100g of carbs, some maybe even 200g of carbs thus they are on a "ketogenic diet".
I myself had sufficient blood ketones on 100g of carbs when I was very lean and doing an hour of cardio daily.

while I don’t disagree, they arnt doing a keto diet, they are still eating carbs, still having high carb days ect. They arnt eating 150g-200g of fat, trace carbs and adequate protein

 

[b-boy]

while I don’t disagree, they arnt doing a keto diet, they are still eating carbs, still having high carb days ect. They arnt eating 150g-200g of fat, trace carbs and adequate protein

Keto has NOTHING to do with eating fat, a PSMF is a ketogenic diet, when incoming energy/glucose is low and the liver is depleted it will start producing ketones, you are now on a ketogenic diet.

 

[tornquad201]

I eat pretty low carb - feel better, keeps my bp down with minimal meds, blood work A LOT better. I don't adhere to keto. I keep around 10-15% or under from carbs most days. Will splurge occasionally maybe 1-2x a week at maintenance or modest effort and be fine (beer/pizza/whatever). Point being doesn't need to be extreme to get benefits. Lots of middle ground.

For weight gain easiest thing to do is add carbs but I'm not trying to do that these days. Mostly I just move from more/less food and higher/lower fat content proteins for manipulating cals and lower carb.

Low carb helps with retaining sodium which help some with blood pressure but at same time raise cortisol and stress hormones which tends to raise it in others

 

[Doitagain]

My muscle fullness SUCKS when my fats are really super low, no matter how hard I push the carbs. I have a minimum threshold level, around 50-60 grams.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

My muscle fullness SUCKS when my fats are really super low, no matter how hard I push the carbs. I have a minimum threshold level, around 50-60 grams.

Shit I thought 50-60 WAS super low lol

 

[Tomgrass]

If not doing psmf i see no point keeping fats ultra low , around 80-100 is a good number for satiety and fulness also if doing keto why deprive yourself from what this diet has to offer- tasty food. Steaks cheeses eggs dark chocolate natural PB - I love those food. Also I am UK based and it make a lot of sense going keto in winter when there are no seasonal fruits. On spring and summer when there is plenty of fully ripe fruits - use them.
There is also a way of having carbs and be in keto
Rob Faigin -NHE diet - i did it years ago was great

 

[Reno911]

I love bodybuilding keto (50% cals from fat, 50% from protein). It's my favorite way to eat and easy to follow while traveling.

I find that I can stay leaner with less cardio. Not as ideal for gaining/staying full.

But.... my bloodwork looks the best with a low fat, higher carb,med/high protein diet and I feel it best for growing (for me).

 

[madg]

I love bodybuilding keto (50% cals from fat, 50% from protein). It's my favorite way to eat and easy to follow while traveling.

I find that I can stay leaner with less cardio. Not as ideal for gaining/staying full.

But.... my bloodwork looks the best with a low fat, higher carb,med/high protein diet and I feel it best for growing (for me).

Low fat high carb med/high prot for me too

Feel the best and gain the best on this

 

[b-boy]

while I don’t disagree, they arnt doing a keto diet, they are still eating carbs, still having high carb days ect. They arnt eating 150g-200g of fat, trace carbs and adequate protein

Fazi fitness on YouTube just put out a video and at the end of the video he talks about Martin Fitz. and talks about him pushing for conditioning for the Olympia and his coach having him on 50g of carbs, well guess what???? THATS A KETO DIET FOR HIM! he is burning fat and depleted of glycogen and his liver is producing plenty of ketones to fuel his brain and help fuel his muscles

 

[Flocci]

wouldnt the protein be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis if there isnt enough dietary fat coming in to be converted into ketones? so youd be basically having a gluconeogenetic vs ketogenic diet if you dont have the high fats. AFAIK, what constitutes a ketogenic diet is that you have enough dietary fat to be used for ketone production but not so much protein that you inhibit ketosis by turning the protein to glucose through gluconeogenesis?

it would be like comparing a low carb vs a ketogenic diet, where the ketogenic diet is around 60-85% fats or something like that and the low carb is like 0-30% fats.

Am i wrong? thats my understanding of the subject atleast. I guess it depends what context we are speaking too, is it patients with epilepsy being treated or athletes/healthy adults trying to perform at something.

 

[Doitagain]

wouldnt the protein be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis if there isnt enough dietary fat coming in to be converted into ketones? so youd be basically having a gluconeogenetic vs ketogenic diet if you dont have the high fats. AFAIK, what constitutes a ketogenic diet is that you have enough dietary fat to be used for ketone production but not so much protein that you inhibit ketosis by turning the protein to glucose through gluconeogenesis?

it would be like comparing a low carb vs a ketogenic diet, where the ketogenic diet is around 60-85% fats or something like that and the low carb is like 0-30% fats.

Am i wrong? thats my understanding of the subject atleast. I guess it depends what context we are speaking too, is it patients with epilepsy being treated or athletes/healthy adults trying to perform at something.

Your understanding is correct...on paper.
In the real world, I and many others actually reach ketosis with 40 and even 50% of cals coming from protein. Not everybody, but many do.

 

[need4tren]

Fazi fitness on YouTube just put out a video and at the end of the video he talks about Martin Fitz. and talks about him pushing for conditioning for the Olympia and his coach having him on 50g of carbs, well guess what???? THATS A KETO DIET FOR HIM! he is burning fat and depleted of glycogen and his liver is producing plenty of ketones to fuel his brain and help fuel his muscles

But he isn’t doing a KETO DIET he’s doing low carb low fat prep diet…. Which most guys do to get in shape with high carb days. Saying someone is doing a keto diet means high fat low carb which he’s not doing.

Keto diet and being low carb is completely different. 99 percent of bodybuilders do a low carb low fat approach to get in contest shape. It’s not a keto diet

 

[b-boy]

wouldnt the protein be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis if there isnt enough dietary fat coming in to be converted into ketones? so youd be basically having a gluconeogenetic vs ketogenic diet if you dont have the high fats. AFAIK, what constitutes a ketogenic diet is that you have enough dietary fat to be used for ketone production but not so much protein that you inhibit ketosis by turning the protein to glucose through gluconeogenesis?

it would be like comparing a low carb vs a ketogenic diet, where the ketogenic diet is around 60-85% fats or something like that and the low carb is like 0-30% fats.

Am i wrong? thats my understanding of the subject atleast. I guess it depends what context we are speaking too, is it patients with epilepsy being treated or athletes/healthy adults trying to perform at something.

Then explain how you enter into nutritional ketosis on a PSMF diet?

For a large bodybuilder gluconeogenesis can't keep up with a energy demands, ketones are being produced to keep up with energy demands, gluconeogenesis and the conversion of fatty acids to glucose are happening to meet demand on body systems that depend on glucose like brain and red blood cells. (Yes the brain can also use ketones but red blood cells cannot)

 

[b-boy]

But he isn’t doing a KETO DIET he’s doing low carb low fat prep diet…. Which most guys do to get in shape with high carb days. Saying someone is doing a keto diet means high fat low carb which he’s not doing.

Keto diet and being low carb is completely different. 99 percent of bodybuilders do a low carb low fat approach to get in contest shape. It’s not a keto diet

Do you not understand that keto has NOTHING to do with fat intake, that is what you are confused on, once again you are ketogenic on a PSMF diet which is pretty much just strictly protein diet, your liver will start producing keton bodies when you start breaking bodyfat down for energy as it can't keep up with energy demands and has low incoming glucose and needs to first and foremost ensure the brain has fuel to function!

You are not going to understand this process of human survival as you are just thinking in terms of being a meathead bodybuilder. Almost every pro bodybuilder at some point in their diet when carbs are low and fat is low their livers start producing ketones as their body is breaking down bodyfat for energy and incoming glucose is low.

So I'm out of this argument! Think as you please and believe what you like

 

[need4tren]

Do you not understand that keto has NOTHING to do with fat intake, that is what you are confused on, once again you are ketogenic on a PSMF diet which is pretty much just strictly protein diet, your liver will start producing keton bodies when you start breaking bodyfat down for energy as it can't keep up with energy demands and has low incoming glucose and needs to first and foremost ensure the brain has fuel to function!

You are not going to understand this process of human survival as you are just thinking in terms of being a meathead bodybuilder. Almost every pro bodybuilder at some point in their diet when carbs are low and fat is low their livers start producing ketones as their body is breaking down bodyfat for energy and incoming glucose is low.

So I'm out of this argument! Think as you please and believe what you like

a KETO DIET, by all means is a high fat diet. That is 100 percent what a keto diet is.

Psmf is not a ketone producing diet. You feel great running on ketones. Psmf you feel terrible. Hungry as fuck. Many can’t do it for long periods of time cause your not giving the body fat to convert to ketones. You are simply burning body fat as fuel. Which is any diet that burns body fat, so by your term. Makes any diet a keto diet

 

[b-boy]

a KETO DIET, by all means is a high fat diet. That is 100 percent what a keto diet is.

Psmf is not a ketone producing diet. You feel great running on ketones. Psmf you feel terrible. Hungry as fuck. Many can’t do it for long periods of time cause your not giving the body fat to convert to ketones. You are simply burning body fat as fuel. Which is any diet that burns body fat, so by your term. Makes any diet a keto diet

LMAO
just a simple Google search for "when does the body start producing ketones"



A ketogenic diet is a low carbohydrate diet, not a high fat diet.

 

[b-boy]

a KETO DIET, by all means is a high fat diet. That is 100 percent what a keto diet is.

Psmf is not a ketone producing diet. You feel great running on ketones. Psmf you feel terrible. Hungry as fuck. Many can’t do it for long periods of time cause your not giving the body fat to convert to ketones. You are simply burning body fat as fuel. Which is any diet that burns body fat, so by your term. Makes any diet a keto diet

Another simple Google search "will a PSMF diet put you into ketosis"

 

[Tomgrass]

a KETO DIET, by all means is a high fat diet. That is 100 percent what a keto diet is.

Psmf is not a ketone producing diet. You feel great running on ketones. Psmf you feel terrible. Hungry as fuck. Many can’t do it for long periods of time cause your not giving the body fat to convert to ketones. You are simply burning body fat as fuel. Which is any diet that burns body fat, so by your term. Makes any diet a keto diet

The one and ONLY requirement for keto is low carb. You will probably less ketones in a blood or traces with higher proteins and low fat but it IS still ketogenic diet. Stop mixing up epilepsy keto with bodybuilding keto. Higher protein moderate fat is best for us cause it does not mess up insulin sensitivity. You also does not need to eat below 30 carbs. If you have more muscles then regular joe your carb levels can be slightly higher.

 

[Flocci]

Then explain how you enter into nutritional ketosis on a PSMF diet?

For a large bodybuilder gluconeogenesis can't keep up with a energy demands, ketones are being produced to keep up with energy demands, gluconeogenesis and the conversion of fatty acids to glucose are happening to meet demand on body systems that depend on glucose like brain and red blood cells. (Yes the brain can also use ketones but red blood cells cannot)

I dont know enough about it all to answer that tbh. My knowledge on the subject isnt very thorough, i just know some basics.

i think many here are mixing up the semantics of being in a ketogenic state and what is generally thought of as a ketogenic diet, or what would put a lifter, or average person into ketosis. I havent looked that much into ketosis, ketogenic diets or at what protein vs fat levels most people can maintain ketosis but i believe you most likely are right. I would also think its quite individual and circumstancial how much protein people could handle without falling out of ketosis, but thats just my broscience mind thinking out loud.

Perhaps someone with more practical experience can give us their experience and what amounts of protein they maintained ketosis at and so on for those interested.