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L-Carnitine Reduced Efficacy of T3

Well, that’s part of the issue… you can’t just check bloodwork to see if it is effecting you

I’ll be honest, I really have no clue why people use L Carn when it can possibly be counterproductive and we have so many other options both supplement and drug wise that can we can utilize to put our bodies in a state of burning fat.
If one is using a SGLT2 inhibitor, Carnitine may be a useful adjuvant.
Why does this keep being ignored?…
Almost 4 years have past by and still.. posts #415 and #424.

 
Possibly be counterproductive? There is no definitive study that proves yes or no, unless I missed it? However, we do have well respected and knowledgeable members on this board who have shared their REAL results with injectable L-Carnitine - all positive.

No offence, but if everyone went by the 'possibility' of something negative happening after injecting or ingesting any of the plethora of PEDS, SARMS, PEPTIDES, BP Meds, et al; then this site would be better suited for a bunch of sweater knitting Karen's.

Using ANY drug, always comes with a 'possibility' of risks. But, we still do it, and outweigh the risks to benefits. Bodybuilders are the real clinical studies and human trials, but unfortunately each and every one of us are different and everything will affect everyone in a different way, therefore we cannot quantify any clinical results. But you will only know, if you are willing to try it. And after many many many years of bodybuilding, I have learned that myself and almost every true bodybuilder are risk takers, and willing to do what it takes to get results.

Could you imagine the world of bodybuilding, if everyone was micro managing every aspect of any drug that had a 'possibility' to be counterproductive or unsafe? I'm not saying there can or cannot be an issue with injectable L-Carnitine and thyroid function, but I won't know for me, until I try it. If I feel there are any concerns of low thyroid function, then I will follow up with a thyroid blood panel.
Yes, plenty of actual research. And anecdotal. Watch @homonunculus video on it. He even talks about a case where he saw a competitor having to keep pushing up t3 to counter the l carnatine, then when he pulled the l carnatine he was incredibly hyperthyroid.

I’m not saying this as a “knitting Karen”. You say possible risk. Im not talking about health risk here, I’m talking about counterproductivity towards our goals… fat loss. That’s great that users here have used L Carnatine and had no issues reaching their fat loss goals. The reality is though, no one is going to KNOW for a fact if it may have actually made them have to push cardio/pull food more since we can’t assess through bloodwork if they’re are not optimizing their metabolism because of l carn’s inhibition of t3.

My point is, we have MANY tools to increase fat oxidation… so why use the one that is potentially (and yes, this IS as I said actually a real thing not “Broscience” which you can see by reading the thread or watching Scott discuss it) going to decrease our metabolic output? I’m just trying to think logically here. We have many tools in our toolbox for fat oxidation, and given what we know about l carnatine it just seems silly to me to grab THAT tool.

I have no specific reason to be against l carn. I’m just not seeing much of a logical reason to use it in the context we are trying to apply it.
 
I mean in the case of L-carnitine you have the studies/scientific explanation why there might be an issue with thyroid function which would be counterproductive as @aHarness stated. You use something that you believe helps you stay leaner while it MIGHT to the opposite.
And criticising him while, again, completely ignoring that the thyroid issue IS NOT REFLECTED on bloodwork as stated several times brings a smile to my face.
Yeah, I’m not sure the user is following what I’m saying… my post is nothing to do with health and I’m 100% fine with people taking risk… I sure do and I’m far from any “safer use model” advocate lol. All I’m trying to say is that it could be counterproductive, and that has everything to do with our goals and im not even considering health when I state that.

Maybe he doesn’t understand the importance of thyroid function? Especially in a deficit lol.
 
And why you think it would be specifically useful with an SGLT2 inhibitor?
SGLT2i increase acetyl-CoA carboxylase--> liberation of long-chain fatty acids. In theory, this could reduce carnitine pools. Speculation on my behalf.

In that thread I posted earlier and a few other topics on supplemental carnitine I've discussed my personal thoughts on it.
 
I even take my Synthetine when I travel :)
1000008872.jpg
 
SGLT2i increase acetyl-CoA carboxylase--> liberation of long-chain fatty acids. In theory, this could reduce carnitine pools. Speculation on my behalf.

In that thread I posted earlier and a few other topics on supplemental carnitine I've discussed my personal thoughts on it.
I’ll give that thread a deeper read. Thanks man.
 
I stopped my l carnitine due to it lumping me up, I’m prescribed 50mg of t3 for my thyroid and I’m burning fat and glycogen faster then when I use it. But I also split my gh dosing from at night to morning and night so I can get the fatty acid release the l carnitine would be helping with
 
I mean in the case of L-carnitine you have the studies/scientific explanation why there might be an issue with thyroid function which would be counterproductive as @aHarness stated. You use something that you believe helps you stay leaner while it MIGHT to the opposite.
And criticising him while, again, completely ignoring that the thyroid issue IS NOT REFLECTED on bloodwork as stated several times brings a smile to my face.
Everything we ingest and inject, can 'possibly' have a negative impact in many ways on our health, such as thyroid function. But my point is, to come on here and point at L-Carnitine to be some useless or risky compound, and questioning why it's not being addressed, does sound like Karen comment. And I'm not here criticizing anyone, but it is what it is. Try it, or don't try it. Either make a decision based on speculation of 'possibilities', or read and learn from experienced and well known members who are providing real results and feedback. Simple.
 
Everything we ingest and inject, can 'possibly' have a negative impact in many ways on our health, such as thyroid function. But my point is, to come on here and point at L-Carnitine to be some useless or risky compound, and questioning why it's not being addressed, does sound like Karen comment. And I'm not here criticizing anyone, but it is what it is.
It’s not a Karen comment lol. You’re either misinterpreting what I’m saying or you don’t understand the importance of thyroid function in a deficit dude. Point blank. It’s not about health, my point is about making progress. Idk if something is going over your head or what man.

X drug = increase in fat oxidation
Y drug = increase in fat oxidation BUT also to a degree limiting the ability of t3 to enter the cell nucleus… which we know is very important when trying to lose fat

Which drug sounds better? That’s literally the only point I’m trying to make. I don’t give a single fuck about health in the context of this “argument” so you can stop bringing it up as if I’m on some sort of weird high horse. I’ve used t3, t4, gh, tren, var etc. which all (obviously) modulate the thyroid… I’m not saying not to use l carnatine cause I’m scared of some sort of thyroid health damage. I’m not. I’m making a talking point that is relevant to REACHING OUR GOALS; FAT LOSS.

or read and learn from experienced and well known members who are providing real results and feedback
And for the 3rd or maybe 4th time, you can’t assess this through thyroid bloodwork. So idk how they are providing feedback on how it impacted their metabolic function in regards to thyroid… (they aren’t)
 
Yes, plenty of actual research. And anecdotal. Watch @homonunculus video on it. He even talks about a case where he saw a competitor having to keep pushing up t3 to counter the l carnatine, then when he pulled the l carnatine he was incredibly hyperthyroid.

I’m not saying this as a “knitting Karen”. You say possible risk. Im not talking about health risk here, I’m talking about counterproductivity towards our goals… fat loss. That’s great that users here have used L Carnatine and had no issues reaching their fat loss goals. The reality is though, no one is going to KNOW for a fact if it may have actually made them have to push cardio/pull food more since we can’t assess through bloodwork if they’re are not optimizing their metabolism because of l carn’s inhibition of t3.

My point is, we have MANY tools to increase fat oxidation… so why use the one that is potentially (and yes, this IS as I said actually a real thing not “Broscience” which you can see by reading the thread or watching Scott discuss it) going to decrease our metabolic output? I’m just trying to think logically here. We have many tools in our toolbox for fat oxidation, and given what we know about l carnatine it just seems silly to me to grab THAT tool.

I have no specific reason to be against l carn. I’m just not seeing much of a logical reason to use it in the context we are trying to apply it.
Hey, for you, stay away from using it, stick to what works for you. Our goals are not all the same.

L-Carnitine provides other benefits other than just fat loss. And yes, there are many tools in the tool box, but deciding to use injectable L-Carnitine is a decision each of us makes based on what our specific goals are. Professional Muscle has many well known and experienced members who openly offer and share their personal feedback and results with PEDS et al. Real feedback, real results. Now if we had multiple members actually posting negative results and thyroid issues from using injectable L-Carnitine, then it would be worth asking why it is being ignored. But excuse me if I have missed any threads/posts from actual members who did claim that using injectable L-Carnitine negatively impacted their thyroid function. And or could prove it was in fact the injectable L-Carnitine that caused the T3 thyroid issue. Also consider, if we cannot see any blood work results that show L-Carnitine does n fact negatively impact the T3, then how is it that people can point to T3 and confirm that it does have negative effects?

And in reference to the competitor having to keep pushing up their T3 to counter the L-Carnitine, how can this be proven it was the L-Carnitine? There are many variables that can negatively affect thyroid function, especially when dieting and competing. What other drugs were they taking? Were they over trained? Under nourished? I can keep going here, but I think my point is clear. It is well known, that what works for one person may not work for another, and or the results, tolerance, dosages, etc., are not the same. As with injectable L-Carnitine, that is something each and everyone of us has to decide if taking it will help us achieve our goals and or be counterproductive.

So for me, based on my goals and the positive feedback from many well known members on this board, I'm going to be using injectable L-Carnitine. If it screws with my T3, I will be the first to share.
 
Also consider, if we cannot see any blood work results that show L-Carnitine does n fact negatively impact the T3, then how is it that people can point to T3 and confirm that it does have negative effects?
I’m just gonna stop this convo bro. It’s pointless. You clearly didn’t even spend any time watching the content this thread covers, or reading any of the data provided by Scott so until we are both actually informed on the subject I’m just gonna drop it. No hard feelings man but this isn’t going anywhere really.
 
Hey guys!

Well, I'm glad to see that the podcasts are bringing attention and some "robust" debate to this interaction with L-Carnitine and Thyroid hormone.

I can't emphasize this enough that it could very well be worth it to get a membership to John Meadows' site (this supports his wife and kids; the month by month membership can be cancelled the next day and still have access the remaining days of the month) to read the two part article there on L-Carnitine.


It seems that BOTH *hypo* and *hyper*thyroidism could lead to reduced L-Carnitine, by impairing endogenous production and increasing excretion, respectively.

Aside from the trickiness that L-Carnitine's impact on thyroid hormone action doesn't appear to show up in bloodwork is that the pharmacology of L-Carnitine loading (and depletion), on an exact time scale, and the dose-response curve of reducing thyroid action aren't well characterized as far as I can tell, so we've got a variety of scenarios where L-Carnitine could either help or hinder fat loss (or apparently do neither for a while... LOL).

-Someone somewhat sub-clinically hypothyroid d/t to a prolonged diet might end up benefiting from topping off L-Carnitine by supplementing at a level that doesn't (immediately) impair thyroid action.

-Someone who's running thyroid hormone (esp T3 I'd suspect) at a supraphysiological level could also benefit from maximizing L-Carnitine Levels as far as fat burning, if (reduced) L-Carn is a metabolic bottleneck.

It might take weeks for thyroid-related L-Carn depletion to occur and loading to occur (especially if orally supplementing), complicating matters, on top of the intricacies mechanism whereby L-Carn is interfering with thyroid action intracellularly (e.g., does this relate more so to blood levels, intracellular free or bound levels, etc.?).

1.) Imagine a person dieting down who initially benefits from L-Carn (optimizing levels) and then ups dose as the diet proceeds, shooting himself in the foot metabolically over the course of weeks as eventually the L-Carnitine starts to put the brakes on metabolic rate. 2.) He / she then adds in T3 (let's say) and remedies that issue and fat loss proceeds. 3.) Then, over time the supraphysiological T3 might end up undoing the elevated muscle levels such fat loss slow, but that 4.) adding more L-Carnitine again seemingly optimizes fat loss. The could be very tricky to figure out amidst ALL THE OTHER factors that are changing (other fat burners, changing in diet, cardio, NEAT etc., etc.)

-Then, as aHarness mentioned, there's the scenario where L-Carn supplementation is putting the brakes on an otherwise hyperthyroid catabolic state allowing a person to gain / hold on to muscle, such that when L-Carnitine is removed (e.g., b/c competitor X gets tired of doing L-carn injections let's say) muscle mass is lost b/c the brake on thyroid action is released and the excess thyroid hormone now is revving protein turnover excessively.

[FYI, there's evidence that L-Carn supplemention (oral) is helpful for a variety of condition where fatigue is prominent (see the moutaindogdiet article for references): chronic fatigue or certain fatiguing pathological conditions, cardiopulmonary disease-associated exercise impairment (e.g., cardiac insufficiency), peripheral artery disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, fatigue in old age (centenarians). Scott McN has mentioned repeatedly on the podcast that it's helps with his symptoms of Long C£¢∞d. So, if someone were to experience less fatigue during a prep, there's a potential effect on NEAT in and of itself for helping with fat loss - simply wanting to be and thus being more active because you feel better - as well as the potential placebo effects that could play a role b/c the person now has a positive association with L-Carnitine.]

-S
 
Hey guys!

Well, I'm glad to see that the podcasts are bringing attention and some "robust" debate to this interaction with L-Carnitine and Thyroid hormone.

I can't emphasize this enough that it could very well be worth it to get a membership to John Meadows' site (this supports his wife and kids; the month by month membership can be cancelled the next day and still have access the remaining days of the month) to read the two part article there on L-Carnitine.


It seems that BOTH *hypo* and *hyper*thyroidism could lead to reduced L-Carnitine, by impairing endogenous production and increasing excretion, respectively.

Aside from the trickiness that L-Carnitine's impact on thyroid hormone action doesn't appear to show up in bloodwork is that the pharmacology of L-Carnitine loading (and depletion), on an exact time scale, and the dose-response curve of reducing thyroid action aren't well characterized as far as I can tell, so we've got a variety of scenarios where L-Carnitine could either help or hinder fat loss (or apparently do neither for a while... LOL).

-Someone somewhat sub-clinically hypothyroid d/t to a prolonged diet might end up benefiting from topping off L-Carnitine by supplementing at a level that doesn't (immediately) impair thyroid action.

-Someone who's running thyroid hormone (esp T3 I'd suspect) at a supraphysiological level could also benefit from maximizing L-Carnitine Levels as far as fat burning, if (reduced) L-Carn is a metabolic bottleneck.

It might take weeks for thyroid-related L-Carn depletion to occur and loading to occur (especially if orally supplementing), complicating matters, on top of the intricacies mechanism whereby L-Carn is interfering with thyroid action intracellularly (e.g., does this relate more so to blood levels, intracellular free or bound levels, etc.?).

1.) Imagine a person dieting down who initially benefits from L-Carn (optimizing levels) and then ups dose as the diet proceeds, shooting himself in the foot metabolically over the course of weeks as eventually the L-Carnitine starts to put the brakes on metabolic rate. 2.) He / she then adds in T3 (let's say) and remedies that issue and fat loss proceeds. 3.) Then, over time the supraphysiological T3 might end up undoing the elevated muscle levels such fat loss slow, but that 4.) adding more L-Carnitine again seemingly optimizes fat loss. The could be very tricky to figure out amidst ALL THE OTHER factors that are changing (other fat burners, changing in diet, cardio, NEAT etc., etc.)

-Then, as aHarness mentioned, there's the scenario where L-Carn supplementation is putting the brakes on an otherwise hyperthyroid catabolic state allowing a person to gain / hold on to muscle, such that when L-Carnitine is removed (e.g., b/c competitor X gets tired of doing L-carn injections let's say) muscle mass is lost b/c the brake on thyroid action is released and the excess thyroid hormone now is revving protein turnover excessively.

[FYI, there's evidence that L-Carn supplemention (oral) is helpful for a variety of condition where fatigue is prominent (see the moutaindogdiet article for references): chronic fatigue or certain fatiguing pathological conditions, cardiopulmonary disease-associated exercise impairment (e.g., cardiac insufficiency), peripheral artery disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, fatigue in old age (centenarians). Scott McN has mentioned repeatedly on the podcast that it's helps with his symptoms of Long C£¢∞d. So, if someone were to experience less fatigue during a prep, there's a potential effect on NEAT in and of itself for helping with fat loss - simply wanting to be and thus being more active because you feel better - as well as the potential placebo effects that could play a role b/c the person now has a positive association with L-Carnitine.]

-S
Awesome insight Scott. Thank you.
 

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