Making physique improvements despite poor sleep

qbkilla · Jan 4, 2023

Everyone knows how important sleep is but there are other variables just as important and more important.

Has anyone felt like there have been times when they made great progress adding size, strength, cutting, recomp, when sleep was really poor?

I know I have. I assume most have when cutting and in prep or growing into a show. It leads me to ask is sleep possibly overrated when it comes to performance and hypertrophy if we are maximizing all other factors (diet, gear, training)?

Some will say you can't train hard when getting poor sleep but this hasn't been my experience. Training may suffer if getting no sleep but I've went through stretches getting 4-5 hours and getting stronger each week.

Flex500 · Jan 4, 2023

I have a physician in my family that specializes in sleep and we've discussed this a lot. His perspective is that you will not be absolutely optimal if you are not maximizing sleep but he also felt strongly with the right drugs, nutrition, and training you can absolutely progress mightily. His biggest concern, by a county mile is the impact of inadequate sleep on health and he felt that was the biggest risk to a normal human...but also a drug using bber.

I've had recent discussion as I have a 14 week old, a 10 year old, a wife that works, and an incredibly high stress job where I travel. I sleep about 5 hours a sleep now and usually I'm 7-8.

He had no concern at all that I could get bigger, stronger, in better shape with the reduction in sleep from 7-8 to 5 hours a night but he was pretty sincere that long-term it is dangerous (his words) and a very high health risk.

The one tip he told me is he said try to catch up if you can. On the weekends, whenever, if you can sleep 10 hours a night twice a week it will help "catch up" slow to speak so when you get into a few days or so of "sleep debt" try to catch up because it absolutely will help your body recuperate. Of course if you are in 6 months of sleep debt you can sleep 15 straight days to make up for it, but you get the point.

TheOtherOne55 · Jan 4, 2023

This feels like a discussion Justin Harris just had on one of his podcasts on YT. Basically, of the big 3....training, nutrition and sleep, he believes sleep is the most overrated.
Of course he laughed as that would be such a hot button to take — but basically the idea that EVERY person ever in prep suffers from poor sleep but still looks amazing come show time. So sleep cannot be thaaat much of a factor in terms of fat loss because it doesnt seem to slow any down (or by much). He was a little less forward on whether it affected growth though.

Personally, I average 6hrs of sleep a day. 5 is a poor day, 7 is a good day. Around 6 is completely normal and I have grown completely fine. Could i have grabbed a couple more lbs of muscle if my average was 7.5? Probably. But all the factors of my life, plus just how my body naturally runs means 6 is A-OK for me. At 6, i am not exhausted or wiped, i am functional and feel good. 8 feels no different than 6 to me personally. I also DO sleep with a CPAP (im 291) so that does help immensely. The older i get, the more i take casual naps too lol If im tired after a GH shot at a meal midday (and my schedule permits) ill take an hour nap.
I also feel like the idea of "catching up on sleep" isnt supported by enough science right now (https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(19)30098-3)

Ccook33 · Jan 4, 2023

I sleep about four hours a night currently and my physique shows that. (I believe). Still training and dieting similar, just working a couple extra jobs!

alfresco · Jan 4, 2023

Now . . . if we could only bank sleep, save it for when we need it.

Good thread.

Ranchhand · Jan 4, 2023

I get about 4 hours a night and have tried everything I can think of including a CPAP. I live at just over 10,500ft (two miles above sea level) which is known to effect sleep. Tried OTC & prescription drugs, herbs, exercise, rest, etc. Still my sleep is shit, but as long as I'm on PEDS my progress will improve and stay strong.

qbkilla · Jan 4, 2023

Good discussion. I have also heard that the sleep debt doesn't work scientifically but it sure can't hurt. I've been getting about 5 hours a night and look and feel fine that's what got me thinking. It's almost as like I've optimized my diet, training, work isn't stressful...so my body isn't craving sleep so I can't fall asleep or I'll wake up early and feel fine.

I want to take naps so I can say I got 7-8 hours total but my body won't fall asleep to nap it's like telling me "stop trying to fall asleep I'm not tired go get shit done"

Flex500 · Jan 4, 2023

qbkilla said:
Good discussion. I have also heard that the sleep debt doesn't work scientifically but it sure can't hurt. I've been getting about 5 hours a night and look and feel fine that's what got me thinking. It's almost as like I've optimized my diet, training, work isn't stressful...so my body isn't craving sleep so I can't fall asleep or I'll wake up early and feel fine.

I want to take naps so I can say I got 7-8 hours total but my body won't fall asleep to nap it's like telling me "stop trying to fall asleep I'm not tired go get shit done"

Well I think that is something you have going for and a stark difference than most. I'm exhausted. Flat out exhausted. I have been setting my alarm and literally taking 10 minute naps and I fall soundly asleep in that time. I need at least 6 hours a night but usually function on 7 to 8 so this 4-5 hours a night is really beating me up.

buck · Jan 4, 2023

I never slept more then 6.5 hours in all my growing years/ and often got by o 5 hours for periods of time without seeing any lose in size or conditioning. I am guesing that more would have been better but when i woke up i started my day.

qbkilla · Jan 4, 2023

Flex500 said:
Well I think that is something you have going for and a stark difference than most. I'm exhausted. Flat out exhausted. I have been setting my alarm and literally taking 10 minute naps and I fall soundly asleep in that time. I need at least 6 hours a night but usually function on 7 to 8 so this 4-5 hours a night is really beating me up.

I definitely feel for you. I have gone through periods where I was getting a ton of sleep and felt exhausted. Typically when I'm not getting proper sleep im a mess. This is the first time I've got poor sleep (always waking up before alarm and not being able to pass back out) and I actually feel good. Dosages and diet are typical but stress is low right now so maybe when stress is low our body requires less sleep?

Muay Thai · Jan 4, 2023

the only wayh i found this was possible was from HGH, i stayed up a lot of days this summer 24+ hours but always felt like HGH regen'erated me to some, extent. also slin preworkout with good intra drink. you wont be at optimum efficiency but its best you can do for omitting sleep , also MELATONIN at night regardless.

cage99 · Jan 4, 2023

I seriously don’t know how y'all function on 5-6hrs a night. I could do it for a short period, but I’d be miserable. I need 8hrs, 7hrs is okay, but I’m not 100%!

How physically active you are during the day matters as well. There’s days I’m pulling wrenches, swinging a sledge, etc. for 14hrs. After 5-7 days of those I need 9-10hrs of sleep!

Cage

TrippplePPP · Jan 5, 2023

I remember in college having a class where we tested people one week and then the next week after they had stayed up the whole night. A bunch of tests like math, athletic performance stuff, memory and that game where you put pieces into the boardgame in 60 seconds and then the thing pops. Of course people did worse the next day. It was like 20 years ago though. Haha.

Its amazing to think people start to hallucinate when staying up for days. I definitely feel like sleep is something where you must pay the piper at some point other wise things begin to suffer.

Flex500 · Jan 5, 2023

cage99 said:
I seriously don’t know how y'all function on 5-6hrs a night. I could do it for a short period, but I’d be miserable. I need 8hrs, 7hrs is okay, but I’m not 100%!

How physically active you are during the day matters as well. There’s days I’m pulling wrenches, swinging a sledge, etc. for 14hrs. After 5-7 days of those I need 9-10hrs of sleep!

Cage

Total solidarity there. I’m amazed so many can do it. I hate to admit it, but a primary reason my wife and I put off our second child a decade was due to the sleep. Thank God we are on week 14 and the little guy is sleeping more but we both need a solid 7 but preferably 8 a night.

cage99 · Jan 5, 2023

Flex500 said:
Total solidarity there. I’m amazed so many can do it. I hate to admit it, but a primary reason my wife and I put off our second child a decade was due to the sleep. Thank God we are on week 14 and the little guy is sleeping more but we both need a solid 7 but preferably 8 a night.

Did the same with my son… Delayed things and then bit the bullet. Thank god that sleepless period only lasted 2 months. We were fortunate compared to some people who basically go through 6 months of a crying baby 24/7. That shit would be rough!

Cage

Flex500 · Jan 5, 2023

cage99 said:
Did the same with my son… Delayed things and then bit the bullet. Thank god that sleepless period only lasted 2 months. We were fortunate compared to some people who basically go through 6 months of a crying baby 24/7. That shit would be rough!

Cage

Oh man I hear that. He’s actually been really good but we’ve regressed a bit from weeks 12-14. Feels like we are right on the cusp of those long 10 hour deep baby sleeps. I can’t wait lol.

Ccook33 · Jan 5, 2023

Message me and I’ll send you some gummies bro, to see if they help you sleep.

Hammer4 · Jan 5, 2023

What life demands during the day obviously plays a huge role in sleep requirements. My body can recover in 6 or so but my mind needs 8 to be sharp all day.

Stan efferdin claims time asleep before midnight is like two in the bank. I seem to be able to get away with less when I get to bed earlier. Maybe there is something to this?

danieltx · Jan 5, 2023

You can get by on less sleep and make good progress when cutting; you can't do that when growing. No matter how much progress you're making, you'd make more if you were getting adequate rest. Sleep is the time we really recover - the rest of the day your body is doing countless tasks to keep you active and do what you ask of it. When you sleep it gets to repair and recover from all that.

Think about babies - they grow at an extreme rate and spend most of their day sleeping and eating. Ever heard of a baby only sleeping 5 hours a day? You haven't because they don't. Yes, they might wake up every 2 to 3 hours, but they're still getting 12+ hours of sleep per 24 hour cycle.